David and Jason Benham Respond to HGTV After Anti-Gay Controversy

originally posted by: imwilliam
I read the article over at Right Wing Watch and I can understand that a lot of what the brothers are reported as saying would be offensive to homosexuals.

It doesn't bother me that what they said might be offensive to gay people. We all get offended now and then. I don't believe in shutting people up so I won't be offended. That's ridiculous. We are free to offend other people. It's that line between OPINION and ACTION that I draw.

I can understand why they wouldn't want that kind of thinking to spread and why they might want to marginalize people that held those views.

All due respect, thinking that homosexuality is vile, disgusting and demonic isn't exactly an opinion that needs to be spread, if you know what I mean. PLENTY of people already have that opinion and thankfully, the trend is moving toward more acceptance. These brothers voicing their outdated opinions is only going to turn more people against them, not "spread the word". The small right-wing extremists who share their views will support them vocally, but most of America is becoming MORE accepting of homosexuality and won't be influenced by their opinions.

You may be right that HGTV wants to punish or marginalize the brothers, but I think it's more likely that they don't want to be associated with such outdated thinking. Hollywood is pretty progressive.

At the same time, I also understand the concern/fear that Christians have regarding the legitimizing, if not outright celebration and advocacy, of a lifestyle that they believe is condemned by God.

Oh, I understand that, too. Of course Christians don't want homosexuality to be normalized and accepted. But their beliefs and their God are THEIR business, not mine. They are free to have their religion, but when they start going after people rights, in the name of that religion, there's going to be a backlash.

I think the way that you perceive the two brothers is not dissimilar to the way many Christians perceive some of the more extreme gay rights advocates.

I'm not sure it's the same at all. You see, I am a gay rights advocate and I'm an atheist, but I 100% support freedom of religion. I don't take ACTION to try to take Christian's rights away. I believe in equal rights for all. These brothers don't. And they fight to force others to live as they do. Gay people don't.

If nothing else I think that sentiment, is shared by both sides in the debate. Where we go from there, I just don't know.

I think we wait and let nature take its course. Today, I heard an Arkansas judge ruled that their ban on gay marriage is unconstitutional. And North Carolina Registrar of Deeds will start issuing marriage licenses to gay couples, despite the states ban, as it violates the nations Constitution. Gay people WILL have their rights. This change WILL happen. It's only a matter of time. The Christians can fight it all they want, but the tide has turned and they will not succeed in denying equal rights to gays.

Hey Benevolent.

I really am trying to understand where you're coming from. Part of it I think I do understand, much of it I can sympathize with, but there are other things I'm less clear on.

You see, I am a gay rights advocate and I'm an atheist, but I 100% support freedom of religion. I don't take ACTION to try to take Christian's rights away. I believe in equal rights for all.

You say you don't take action to try and take away Christian's rights. I'm assuming that means you don't support those types of actions either. So for example then, in the much debated case of the wedding cake and the Christian baker, you don't believe that a Christian baker should have to bake a cake for a gay wedding?

To me that's about his rights to live his life in accordance with his religious beliefs. Do you agree? You can elaborate or not, though I'd prefer not to re-hash the debate itself, rather I'd like to get a sense of whether or not there is any common ground between you and I as to what "rights" are and perhaps the relative merits/importance of those rights.

originally posted by: captaintyinknots
a reply to: Bone75

Its great that they finished the job, ya know, that they got paid for....

See that's what a real lie looks like, you couldn't possibly know that.

Actually (as odd as I find it to be in the position of pointing this out) many Christians do actively support equal rights for all these days, including the Metropolitan Community Church, the Episcopal Church (USA), many Lutheran Churches, Presbyterian Church (USA), Society of Friends (Quakers), United Church of Christ, Church of Scotland, Church of Canada, Church of Denmark, Church of Norway, etc. etc. etc.

So, not all Christians favor discrimination and the creation of second-class citizenship world-wide, perhaps, but sadly, a seeming majority in the US still do.

a reply to: Gryphon66

many Christians do actively support equal rights for all these days, including the Metropolitan Community Church, the Episcopal Church (USA), many Lutheran Churches, Presbyterian Church (USA), Society of Friends (Quakers), United Church of Christ, Church of Scotland, Church of Canada, Church of Denmark, Church of Norway,

Thanks for bringing that up Gryphon, as these discussions get longer, the pages add up and we get further away from the op sometimes the context gets lost. That not all Christians believe as the two Brothers do is an important point.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe
What baffles me is why these channels don't just tell the people that complain to simply change the channel or not watch their program if they don't like it. I highly doubt this was going to be some blockbuster show anyways, but seriously...there are PLENTY of other channels devoted to sexual/race/whatever scene someone is in to.

Tired of these hardliners...someone needs to stand up to them and say GET THE F&*K OVER IT ALREADY!!!!!

What you don't understand is this isn't about people WATCHING the shows at all.... yes, yes I know it comes off that way but that way of thinking is very colloquial to the advertising industry. It's actually about businesses choosing that show to put commercials on. Businesses now realize that cutting out any significant, important part of the population is bad business.

Bottom line rules: Discrimination and hatred don't pay. It makes bad business sense! Need more proof? Just ask Dan Cathy, the president of Chik-Fil-a.

originally posted by: imwilliam
So for example then, in the much debated case of the wedding cake and the Christian baker, you don't believe that a Christian baker should have to bake a cake for a gay wedding?

The Christian Baker never had the right to deny service to that couple. You can't just "make up" rights. It is against the law and his religion does not give him the right to do so. Just because a person thinks they OUGHT to have that right, does not make it so. The baker had a license from the state (Colorado) and in accordance with that license, he agreed to follow the laws of businesses in that state. What he DOES have the right to do is to practice his religion (go to church, pray, teach his children, etc.), not to make some kind of statement by refusing to serve his customers based on their sexual orientation.

To me that's about his rights to live his life in accordance with his religious beliefs. Do you agree?

I agree he has a right to live according to his religious beliefs, but
1. That doesn't include breaking the law, which is exactly what he did.
2. No where in the bible or any religious text does it say that a Christian must exclude people he doesn't agree with. That is the anti-theses of what Jesus preached, in fact.
3. That baker made cakes for divorced people, sinners and other "unholy" situations. (He made a wedding cake for DOGS). So, he has no basis on which to take his stand.
4. Who buys his cakes and what they do with the cakes is really none of his business.

If it had been a gay baker (in Colorado) and the customer was a Christian, and the gay baker refused to make a wedding cake for a Christian wedding, I would be supporting the Christian in this case, as a business owner has NO right to refuse a customer based on his religion (or his sexual orientation).

Here's what the baker should have told himself... "I am a Christian and I don't like homosexuality - I think it's a sin. But we are all children of God and I have an agreement with the state to serve people, even if I don't agree with their lifestyle. I will pray for this couple and make them a beautiful cake, as I have for many other people, whose lifestyle I disagree with."

a reply to: jupiter869

Actually Chik-Fil-A just surpassed KFC as the #1 chicken distributor in the country despite the disgusting and uncalled for protests, so your point is moot.

I'm glad you brought it up though because its a fine example of the over-reactive, drama queen nature of the LGBT community. That couple was thrown out for swapping spit in a family restaurant, not because they were gay.

originally posted by: imwilliam
a reply to: captaintyinknots

Hey Captain,

Maybe I'm not seeing the same distinction you are. What I understand you to be saying right now is, believing what they believe is ok, (or at least that they shouldn't be fired for it), but expressing it, at least in public, isn't? Sort of like "whatever you do in your bedroom is up to you but I don't want to know about it" or "Don't ask don't tell'? Sometimes, perhaps in error, I get the impression that some members of the homosexual community would like to "closet" and marginalize Christians.

Please, correct me if I've misunderstood how the distinction you're speaking of actually works itself out.

That is not what I am saying at all. They are perfectly free to say whatever they want, wherever they want. Just as the channel is free to express themselves, and do what they believe is right to protect their brand.

They can run down the street draped in swastikas yelling about the return of the 4th reich. They are totally free to do so. What they arent free from, though, is repercussions.

Nobody cares if someone else is christian. What they care about is using christianity (or any other label, for that matter) to put down, demean, or discriminate against others.

originally posted by: Bone75

originally posted by: captaintyinknots
a reply to: Bone75

Its great that they finished the job, ya know, that they got paid for....

See that's what a real lie looks like, you couldn't possibly know that.

Couldnt possibly know what? That they got paid for this? Actually I do. They had a contract with HGTV in which they were given money to make a show about teaching people to flip houses.

Once released from their contracts, they had no obligation to finish, and good on them that they did. But they did get paid for it.

originally posted by: Bone75
a reply to: jupiter869

Actually Chik-Fil-A just surpassed KFC as the #1 chicken distributor in the country despite the disgusting and uncalled for protests, so your point is moot.

I'm glad you brought it up though because its a fine example of the over-reactive, drama queen nature of the LGBT community. That couple was thrown out for swapping spit in a family restaurant, not because they were gay.

Yeah, that happened AFTER the owner backed down on his anti-gay stances and severed ties with anti-gay organizations.

Nice try though.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Hey Benevolent,

I can't say that I agree with much of anything you said in your last post, but as I said, I'm not interested in debating the Christian baker/gay wedding cake situation. However, I do appreciate you answering me and elaborating at the length you did. It cleared up a great deal for me and helps me to understand you a little bit better.

Appreciate the conversation.

Cheers

originally posted by: Bone75

Actually Chik-Fil-A just surpassed KFC as the #1 chicken distributor in the country despite the disgusting and uncalled for protests, so your point is moot.

Not sooo Moot.

Chick Fil A Backs Down Will Stop Funding Anti Gay Groups

Chick Fil A's Foundations Dramatically Reduce Funding to Anti Gay Groups

Chick Fil A Wings in New Direction after Gay Flap

Guess they found out that equality sells more chicken than hate ... imagine that. BOOM!