RFID chips in the libraries

originally posted by: beezzer
A few seconds in a microwave oven tends to place a damper on any item that may carry an electronic label.

Not that I would recommend such a practice.

Just sayin'

Kinda hard on the family microwave that way, isn't it? I mean..all those sparks and arcs are natures way of saying 'hey..this isn't such a bright idea...stop now please'.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: BMorris
They could, for example, track anyone who checked out certain books, that they believed were a signal that the person was some sort of "problem". With all of the privacy issues today, that isn't unlikely at all.

Like Catcher in the Rye? Lets face it, why would they want or need to "track" you. They already HAVE your address. If your libraries work like ours, you had to give your address, and 3 forms of identity document, one of which must be photographic, when you registered for membership.

They don't NEED to track you by RFID, because you gave them all the details they could want when you registered. They certainly don't need RFID to link your loans to your profile, thats done by the checkout process, regardless what checkout process they use.

As for the guy saying to nuke the books in a microwave, thats criminal damage. Unless of course, you have the libraries permission to destroy the RFID tags. I can see the checkin process.
"Excuse me librarian, I need to check these books in."
"Place them on the RFID reader machine."
"Their RFID's aren't working."
"Oh? Let me look..... Why are these RFID's burned?"
"I microwaved them."
"OK, well to to replace the tag in each book will be $x. How do you want to pay?"
"I ain't paying. I didn't give you permission to track me."
"Please wait here while I summon an officer."

a reply to: BMorris

The point is that this is too easy to be used by other agencies. Do you not know that the government is already demanding data from telephone companies and websites, to track everything about people? The Common Core stuff in schools is all about data collection as well. This is just another method.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

So are you still paranoid about RFID chips, after all the information given to you in this thread?

Yes, it's another form of recording information, but in practical use the only difference between this technology and other forms of recording is speed... magnetic scanners, barcodes, writing the information in a ledger is all some form of recording, RFID just speeds up the process.

Security cameras record and can track even better than RFID, yet when a crime occurs, aren't you happy that there is evidence to prove the wrongdoing?

... or should we just trash the whole concept of keeping records?

Maybe we should stop all technological advancement and innovation in record keeping?

This is almost the same argument that gun advocates use... RFID/guns are inanimate objects, a RFID/gun doesn't use itself, you need a person to operate it. If guns are legal, then why not RFID’s, or any inanimate object?

You should worry about who is using the technology... not the fact that it exists... and if you're really worried about a technology, learn about it, and find ways to alleviate your worries... stressing out is bad for you... ;-j

Here's a few ways to circumvent the use of RFID (you're not alone in your paranoia).

RFID Secure Wallet
How to Block or Kill RFID

I would probably not use the microwave or hammer methods, as the RFID's are most like the property of another, and it's not nice to damage another's property.

Cheers

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

It's important to remember that RFID doesn't equal GPS.

The public library can't track your movements.

a reply to: puzzlesphere

This isn't about "paranoia", but about the possible uses of the technology. A LOT of people are concerned about those uses. Placing these chips in library books is a way to make it easier to compile a complete profile on people. Again, are you aware of how much data compiling the government is into these days, or not? You keep avoiding that topic.

a reply to: freelance_zenarchist

RFID chips can be used to track movement. Who knows if they are or not? If they were, they wouldn't say.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

This is about paranoia... you're completely misrepresenting a technology, and fabricating scenarios that don't accurately reflect the facts... you're fear mongering about RFID with no understanding of how the technology actually works and is used. Many people in this thread have tried to educate you, but you refuse to listen, and still trumpet about possible uses that just aren't possible.

I've used and even done some basic coding with RFID's, and it's not some magic technology, it's very simple and harmless, with known and defined uses, nothing secret about them. No, not a LOT of people... a comparatively very small group of uninformed paranoids most probably wearing tin-foil hats. ;-j

I am very aware about how much the government is recording, and how they are trying to use it (based on the little knowledge you have displayed on these technologies, likely much more aware than you... I have attended and spoken at conferences that deal exactly with these concepts, and some of the stuff being done can indeed seem nefarious)... not trying to avoid it at all... but in terms of tracking and compiling data, there are much better technologies for doing all that, and commercial RFID systems really don't factor into their consideration.

Compiling data from closed RFID systems (likely with proprietary dedicated and encoded frequencies) is just not how it is done. The data is most likely unverifiable... so essentially useless outside of an inventory list.

I'm only really posting to try to clear up the fatcs.

;-j

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

No... Not the type in your library books.

Only "active" sensors can be live tracked... and then, expensively, only over a very small and defined area.

If "they" were (whoever that is), they aren't using RFID to do it.

a reply to: puzzlesphere

If you don't agree, then you have already said so. Claiming I am paranoid is a personal issue, however, and out of place in this debate. If you can't behave, don't bother posting.

I know the facts, and discussing those is fine, but if you post any personal attacks, I won't even bother responding. Clear enough?

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

I apologise if you feel I'm being rude, it's not my intention, I'm just trying to clarify the facts. ;-)

It's not a matter of whether I agree or not, it's that you are posting erroneous opinions about what RFID is capable of. Your premise is that library RFID systems could be used for tracking or compiling data. All I’m saying is that RFID isn't the issue, and if "they" are compiling data then RFID doesn't change that at all. They can do that with any inventory system, including traditional barcodes.

You are coming across paranoid, even if you're not meaning to, and from your posts it seems you don't actually know the facts about RFID.

All I want to do is assuage your fears about a harmless technology. What would make you feel better about the technology?... or are you resolutely against it regardless of any presented information?

Personal attacks really aren't my style, but I will challenge wrong information when i'm knowledgeable of the subject matter.

No hard feelings. :-)

a reply to: puzzlesphere

Ok, no worries then. A bit thin-skinned perhaps, tonight. been dealing with some seriously horrid people in a couple of other discussions (NOT on ATS).

I do know the information you post; that's the stuff they share. What concerns me is what isn't shared. At this point, I don't trust the government at all, and I wouldn't put anything past them.

RFID in general can track, and all we have is their word that their system doesn't do that, or isn't capable. It's a question of whether or not we can trust the ones in charge not to exploit any area they can. It isn't the tech, but the possible uses of it, that concerns me. I LOVE technology. I don't love what some can and will do with it. The more technology in more and more places, the more I wonder.

Think about laptops. Awesome things. Good computing power, handy for work and school, portable. Schools sometimes give them out to students to help with schoolwork. All good, right? Sure, till schools are caught tracking kids movements and usage, and spying on them through the webcams. That's happened.

Cell phones are great. Very convenient, and you aren't stranded with no way to call for help. Add features, and they are even better. GPS, internet, photos, games, and so forth; all very handy. I love my cell phone. Always have. However, they can be used to track people, can be hacked to give access to all calls and messages, and even the pictures people take can be tracked, giving someone online knowledge of where the photo was taken. They can even be accessed remotely, and cameras and mics turned on, making them "bugs" to spy on people. That's all happened.

So, when a technology as flexible as chips is placed into various things, I feel it's prudent to explore what could be done with it.

No, no hard feelings! For myself, I don't really worry about that sort of tracking. I do think we should be aware, though.

The RFID's in library books *can't* track, they are too small and there's nothing hidden in them.

The technology is out there in the public domain. The technology has been disassembled, and reverse engineered, many many times, by various nations, by various Universities, by various "hacker labs". If the companies that make them were hiding some amazing technology in them that allowed them to be tracked via satellite, whilst not having an internal power source, then we'd have heard about it long before now.

An RFID is a PASSIVE device. It is inert until exposed to a radio wave of a specific frequency. The RFID then uses this radio wave, and converts it into a tiny amount of power, which it them uses to transmit whatever data is on the devices storage back to the RFID reader.

The fact that they don't have an on-board active power source and have to convert RF energy into power in order to transmit, means that the transmitted RF wave is very low power, which in turn means the reader has to be in very close proximity to the RFID itself. There is no RFID capable of transmitted with a sufficient power level, to be read by satellites. I believe the effective reading range for the type of RFID's used in library books, and security tags used in DVD's, which are also RFID's, is no more than a few cm.

In theory, you could increase that range using a directed parabolic antenna, but not by much, a meter at most I'd guess. There are RFID's capable of being read at longer range but they are physically larger (or rather their antena is larger), and the reader has to output a more energetic RF wave to give the RFID more power for a larger output wave.

Your books didn't double in thickness for the longer range RFID's did they?