Jesus made the law even more difficult.

a reply to: Akragon

Jesus disagrees with you in all of John 3

John 3: 14 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

If our deeds are not done in faith, they bring glory to the sinner and are therefore dead works. If our deeds are done in faith, they glorify God above man.

Anyone who seeks the truth will find it, for it is God's will. Those who do not seek the light of the truth are content with their dead works.

The world holds tight to their faithless works, we Christian hold tight to our faith in Christ Jesus. That is the dividing line between the two groups.

oops, duplicate post.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Well said, but Faith in Jesus does not produce good works unless one understands what Belief in Jesus actually means...

One can not simply say "I believe in Jesus" and then go about his business and ignore the world trusting that said faith will "save" that person from whatever we're being saved from...

As I've said in my previous reply... Simply calling on his name means nothing...

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me"

IF one has "faith" in him... they will do as he asked of us...

Faith... even belief requires action... or it is dead faith

Likewise, a man who has no belief in God will still be judged by the same measure when the time comes...

We are judged by what we do in this life... OR what we do not do...

Faith alone will not cut it, if there is no action behind said faith...

Thus as I've said... Faith alone is NOT the way...

a reply to: Akragon

I see what you mean, but go back to John 3. Jesus is the Light of the world. There are two categories of people; the ones who love the Light, and the ones that dont (because they are content with their sin nature). Therefore, true faith is motivated by love for the Light, aka Jesus.

Jesus taught that there are those who recieve the truth with joy, but fall away at the first sign of trouble. These people did not have the faith defined in John 3 (faith motivated by true love for the Light).

True love never fails therefore true faith never fails. I love my family unconditionally, I have never stopped loving them. Therefore, all that is required for eternal life is true faith in Jesus motivated by love.

Good works will be the inevitable result of true faith. If we are born again as a new creature by faith, then our actions will reflect our new nature.

Acknowledgement of the truth is not the same as faith in the truth.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

This only reinforces what I've just explained...

You call it "true faith" but said true faith requires works of the spirit or it is not Faith but merely words backed by nothing...

I'll refer you to Matthew 5...

13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Just as food (meat?) has little taste without salt... Faith has no taste without the "flavor" of work...

As you've stated, some who claim to have faith prove that faith to be little more then words when they turn their backs on those in need...

IF we are the "light" of the world, we can not hide that light from others... it must be shown to glorify the Father...

One must show his Faith to others, and words mean nothing if they are not backed by something...

Love requires action does it not?

You love your family... but would you deny them what they need?

Do you just tell them you love them... OR do you show them?

a reply to: Akragon

In a way, we are making the same argument. However, what I am saying is that good works are a result of faith. I do not to good works to prove my faith, but because they come from my faith.

A person who claims to have faith, but has no works to show for it never had faith to begin with.

My point is that true love is not capable of failing. I've had many disagreements with members of my family, but I can never fall out of love with them. The bond is unbreakable. The same goes for salvation by (true) faith alone. Either you have faith in Christ and good works become your natural response, or you never had faith and your good works are hollow.

Eiither way, once you express faith motivated by a true love for Christ, the bond is unbreakable, and good works will flow like water from a river. The flow might start out as a trickle, but if the believer continues in obediance, the trickle will begin to look more like the Amazon.

We work from our faith, not to built our faith.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

How do you reconcile that line of thought with the OT?

Lets say a man from a distant place knew Nothing of Jesus or God... Is he already condemned as Jesus said?

What if someone has "faith" in another deity, and yet does good works all his life, and showed himself to be a good Honest man... does said person go to "hell" because he did not believe in Jesus?

What else but work could that man possibly do to prevent said journey to the pits of damnation?

originally posted by: Akragon
You people know of course one can not commit adultery without first being married...

Sorry to say but any unmarried person having coitus with a married person is committing adultery.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Thats what I said...

At least one party must be married for adultery to occur... without marriage in the formula, adultery can not occur...

Then theres the whole sex before marriage thing... Another one of Pauls issues...

a reply to: Akragon

What OT line are you refering to?

The knowledge of YHWH has reached all corners of the earth throughout history. Even where the is knowledge forgotten, there still exist prophets and missionaries. And ofcourse, nothing stops God from reaching those who search for the truth with visions and dreams. Though you dont often here about it, it still happens.

Where ever there are those looking for the truth, God will send His message.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Any one where "Gods" people are told to go out and destroy and rape/pillage other men, women and children?

Any verse that tells people to kill or take a life...



Perhaps you are right about he message part...

a reply to: Akragon

God never commanded anyone to commit rape or murder. In fact, both rape and murder are prohibited by the Law. The nations that God told Israel to irradicate were pagan nations. They chose to worship fallen angels rather than God. God told Israel to destroy those people by direct revelation, and the Law prohibited paganism under penalty of death.

Today, however there is no theocratic nation taking direct orders from God therefore we have no right to make war other than for self-defence (America has violated this principle).

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

God never commanded anyone to commit rape or murder. In fact, both rape and murder are prohibited by the Law.

That may be a matter of definition of terms.
If an army comes to a town and kills everyone but the 12 year old girls, then divides them up as loot among the fighters who just killed their fathers and brothers, would you call that rape even if the man called the girl he had just been awarded with his "wife"?

The nations that God told Israel to irradicate were pagan nations. They chose to worship fallen angels rather than God.

Does it say that (worshiping "fallen" angels) in the Bible?

God told Israel to destroy those people by direct revelation, and the Law prohibited paganism under penalty of death.

Where does it say that (death penalty for being "pagan") ?

Today, however there is no theocratic nation taking direct orders from God therefore we have no right to make war other than for self-defense (America has violated this principle).

How about the Islamic Republic of Iran?
Do they according to your reasoning have the right to eradicate "pagans"?

a reply to: jmdewey60

Where does it say that (death penalty for being "pagan") ?
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Deuteronomy 13 pretty much covers that... I wasn't in the mood to argue with BP... Clearly he looked over many of the atrocities found in the bible, and we have had a decent exchange today...

Didn't want to ruin it...

Thanks for chiming in

a reply to: Akragon

Deuteronomy 13 pretty much covers that...

That has to do with Israel once it is established in their land, and supposedly everyone is all worshiping the same god, since that seems to be the main reason to set up the nation in the first place.
In that setting, then if someone comes along to a town in that established nation, Israel, and convinces the people in that town to worship a god other than the state sanctioned national god, then the entire town is to be killed, including the animals.
That is specific to a certain situation and I am doubtful that it was ever carried out.
What I was concerned with was the idea that "pagans" would be arrested and killed just for being a pagan, as if anyone who entered the country from outside of it never came back out.
I don't think that there was a systematic hunt like the Inquisition that killed anyone in Israel who could name a foreign god.

The following is how I understand it. I'm clarifying that because I'm not trying to tell anyone they're wrong or argue little technicalities. Just wanted to chime in with my beliefs on this topic.

That said I don't believe God lies, goes back on his word or tries to trick people. All people will die because of the original sin of Adam and Eve, as God said they would. The law given to Moses was a deal between God and the Hebrews on how they must live to be righteous. They agreed to it and it was put into place forever. The law required a sacrifice for every single sin that a person commits.

Fast forward to the sermon on mount olive. The Jewish leaders thought they were righteous and better than "unclean" people. This is where I agree with the OP, Jesus made the law even harder. When he said lust makes you guilty of adultery I don't think he was lying. I think he was showing "God's people" that they were just as guilty and unclean as anyone.

No one could become righteous through the law or their works, especially if thinking of sinning makes you guilty. But that was Jesus's purpose of coming, he was the only one who could live up to the entire law. When he was crucified having never sinned he willingly became that sacrifice for sin.

If you accept his blood sacrifice he has two commands for us to follow, which are a million times easier than the law. Believe he paid you're debt and love each other. That doesn't mean breaking the previous commands aren't sin. But if you choose to accept his sacrifice your sins won't be held against you.

As for faith vs works I believe it's all about faith and not works for salvation.

The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God"