Monkeys Demand Fair Pay In A World They Never Made

originally posted by: mahatche

originally posted by: WarminIndy

Yes they where paid unequally. Monkeys have no concept of dollar values, they value flavor. Grapes taste better than cucumbers.

Says who?

First of all, both bowls were there, obvious to the monkeys. The cucumber monkey was satisfied, ate the cucumber and then saw the grapes go to the other monkey. The cucumber monkey didn't even see the work the other monkey did, even though it was the same, all he saw was that the other monkey got something that looked different.

Had white grapes been used, the same color as cucumbers, then the experiment might have turned out a different result.

Are you suggesting monkeys would have no flavor preferences? Is it really that hard to see a monkey liking the sweetness of a grape over the relatively bland flavor of cucumber?

I know animals are supposed to be idiotic creatures no preference for anything in life, but grapes are so much better than cucumbers.

These monkeys are familiar with these foods, I'm sure their opinions of the food they eat goes beyond simple color.

You haven't asked the monkeys that, so it's an assumption on your part.

Can you show us a link to whether or not that particular monkey liked grapes over cucumbers? And yes, all animals have taste preferences, however, was the monkey reacting out of unfairness over the work payout, or simply because the other monkey got something else?

But here you go, other Capuchin Monkey studies

Capuchins refuse to help selfish humans

Apparently they don't like selfish people who don't help. They won't even take a handout.

The video is a Brosnan and de Waal experiment.

And here you go, what the video didn't show you, but from a previous study of the same experiment.

The grape getting monkey then actually steals the discarded cucumber. "Hey, if you're not going to eat that" seems to be the call of the wild.

a reply to: LABTECH767

"..the risk of collapse due to growing lack of wealth distribution and tax burden transferrance to the poorest member's of society" - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Or the collapse is due to the increasing prevelance of wealth redisribution and transferrance to the poorest members of society, giving them an incentive to be less productive. The charts over time show an exposion in welfare money. So if there is an effect there its exactly opposite to what you are talking about.

Fair means keeping everything you earn at your own discresion and creating any social contract with anyone on any terms you agree to. Unfair is taking other people's property without their permission.

You haven't asked the monkeys that, so it's an assumption on your part.

Can you show us a link to whether or not that particular monkey liked grapes over cucumbers? And yes, all animals have taste preferences, however, was the monkey reacting out of unfairness over the work payout, or simply because the other monkey got something else?

But here you go, other Capuchin Monkey studies

Capuchins refuse to help selfish humans

Apparently they don't like selfish people who don't help. They won't even take a handout.

The video is a Brosnan and de Waal experiment.

And here you go, what the video didn't show you, but from a previous study of the same experiment.

The grape getting monkey then actually steals the discarded cucumber. "Hey, if you're not going to eat that" seems to be the call of the wild.

No smart ass I haven't asked the monkey's their opinion, but I don't think you did either so stop with the weak cop outs.

My assumption is based on the facts presented in the video. If you give both cucumbers they eat cucumbers without a fuss. If you give both grapes, they eat grapes with out a fuss.

You say it's as simple as getting something different. But if these monkey's are prone jealousy over simple difference, and have no real preference, why doesn't the grape monkey make a fuss for a cucumber?

You realize the monkey's are fed regularly, and they've encountered grapes, cucumbers, and bananas before right?. They know food, and it's not a stretch of the imagination to assume that they'd have preference. Their natural diet is rich in sweet fruit as well.

These scientists work with these monkey's daily and I'm sure they have a decent idea of their behavior.

You're link about them not helping selfish humans does more to support my argument of them having a sense of equality, then it does for your argument that they just wanted what's different with no real preference.

a reply to: Bybyots

very interesting (and entertaining) experiment. so like us in some ways.

Economics is just another religion - it has nothing whatsoever to do with reality.

Here is a short excerpt from an intereview with an economist whos been working in the field for over forty years and unlike most economists has talked to real people and tried to understand economics from a reality based viewpoint. He did teach economics at UC Berkeley for many years.

www.democracynow.org...

Well, to begin with, a completely new concept of economics. This economy is crazy and poisonous. I am an economist, and I have been fighting against the economy that is taught the way it is being taught and being practiced. I have been fighting it for almost 40 years of my life, because it’s an absurd economy that has nothing to do with real life. It’s all fabrications, no? If the model doesn’t work, it’s not because the model is wrong, but because reality plays foul tricks. And reality is there to be domesticated, you know, and become the model. That is the attitude. And that’s systematic, in addition.

What is the economy that is being taught in the universities today everywhere? Neoclassical economics. Neoliberalism is an offspring of neoclassical economics. And neoclassical economics is 19th century. So we are supposed to solve problems of the 21st century that have no precedent with theories of the 19th century. We no longer have a physics of the 19th century, nor a biology, nor an engineering — nor nothing. The only thing in which we stopped in the 19th century is in the concept of economics. I mean, and that is elementarily absurd. And the main journals and everything, you know — I mean, no, no, that’s the way it must be.

Listen to the interveiw or read the transcript - very thought provoking.

An interesting side note - his latest work wasn't published in this country - you have to import it from overseas. I guess the PTB don't like what he has to say about the US State Religion - Financialization of everything.

P> I hate - absolutely hat the 'share' panel on the right of the window - it gets in the way of everything.

Why is it so hard to understand that monkeys have food preferences. And that those preferences follow a majority of animals: sweet is preferred over almost everything.

Sweet indicates easy energy. There is a reason we prefer sweet.

My dogs...i feed them kibbles and bit usually. At the end of a bowl of food (they eat a full bowl about every 4 days), the bits always left over are the dark red pieces. If you look into the bowl after day 1, all the light brown pieces are gone. They have an obvious preference of dog food kibbles, and it is shown time and time again.

Since we love our dogs, we have gotten to where we just dump out the bowl when it gets down to their least favorite pieces.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
Why is it so hard to understand that monkeys have food preferences. And that those preferences follow a majority of animals: sweet is preferred over almost everything.

Sweet indicates easy energy. There is a reason we prefer sweet.

I prefer salty, personally.

In primates food preferences suggest a relationship to colour vision. Most Capuchins have dichromatic vision, meaning that they can see only in the range of blues and greens. But in recent studied, some female capuchins have been found to possess trichomacy. If there is a link between the development of colour vision and diet, then the unfairness would go even deeper, impacting upon subsequent generations. Trichromatic capuchins are much better foragers, spending less time searching for food because they can identify better quality food than their dichromatric male and female counterparts.

neurosciences.us...

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
Why is it so hard to understand that monkeys have food preferences. And that those preferences follow a majority of animals: sweet is preferred over almost everything.

Sweet indicates easy energy. There is a reason we prefer sweet.

My dogs...i feed them kibbles and bit usually. At the end of a bowl of food (they eat a full bowl about every 4 days), the bits always left over are the dark red pieces. If you look into the bowl after day 1, all the light brown pieces are gone. They have an obvious preference of dog food kibbles, and it is shown time and time again.

Since we love our dogs, we have gotten to where we just dump out the bowl when it gets down to their least favorite pieces.

All your dogs have the same food preference?

Ye, I know animals do, however your dogs aren't exactly working for those four bowls a week like the monkey in the experiment were. But how is it all your dogs have the same food preference. That doesn't seem to make the argument about the capuchin monkeys any different.

Dogs are pack animals, but have you noticed that they also want what you have, beg until you give it to them and then turn their nose at it when offered? I have seen cats do the same thing. Think you are getting something better, beg for it and then not like it but then another cat or dog comes along and eats it, suddenly they want it. Go figure.

I have a dog, I have seen my dog with other dogs.

a reply to: Bybyots

If you want to earn more money you must offer more value

Reminder to self, years from now, maybe I'll be wiser then and maybe not

I have sown the seed and rolled the dice - Luck be a lady tonight

a reply to: Bybyots

Our world - the world of humans is simplistic...it's an exchange of commodities or services these days. And highly at an unfair exchange rate... I am saddened that a poor monkey has had to deal with this nonsense. Here and now there is plenty to go around many times over, no one should starve and no one should be without shelter...We have imposed restrictions upon ourselves & locked things down of our own accord. Things don't need to be the way they are. It is what WE make it. The universe did not make man's laws - we did with our own base desires in mind...it can be changed.

a reply to: EveStreet

yeah I hear 'em

a reply to: GetSmart68

Can't see the vid...an error occured...happens a lot around here...

a reply to: EveStreet


Give it 30 minutes to resolve and retry - It happened on the 1st video as well but it didn't take 30 minutes - Technical difficulties, patience is a virtue

a reply to: GetSmart68

LOL...I saw 'em both. Patience is a virtue...and there is a lack of virtuous persons these days for sure...Five Fingered Death Punch is a fav of mine...and as far as Star Trek...I've waited my 30 minutes...why haven't these humans wised up yet?

a reply to: EveStreet

Few and far between I suspect

a reply to: GetSmart68

If you want to earn more money you must offer more value

This is a fine truth.



P.S. Okay, wait: the anti-matter pods are in a filing cabinet!?

a reply to: WarminIndy

it is salient in that it shows that animals can have food preference. That preference is what denotes value in this experiment.

I don't know if my dogs prefer the same stuff. But i CAN tell you that they seem to dislike the same piece of dog food.

a reply to: Bybyots

What if it was the same rock?