Monkeys Demand Fair Pay In A World They Never Made

We are born in to a world of economies. We enter in to an economic transaction with the world and all the objects within it as soon as we are born, everything is a transaction: love, work, death; each has a currency that drives a little economy of its own.

The following video is an excerpt from a 2013 TedTalk by Frans de Waal called Moral behavior in animals. In the video two capuchin monkeys are "paid" unequally for performing the same "work", which consists of the monkeys handing a rock to the lab scientist and receiving food in return.

The monkeys like grapes best, and they will tolerate cucumber. One monkey is given a grape in return for its rock, and the other is given the dreaded sub-meal of cucumber. Have a watch at what happens, you can ff to 1:15 if you want to cut to the chase, but I recommend watching the whole thing.



Frans de Waal and his team have performed this same experiment with the same results on birds, dogs and chimpanzees.

Knowing that, I have to ask: are all organisms neurologically, or biologically wired to expect to live and operate in a world of economies?

Because even if we could understand the economies of capuchin-monkey-culture, I doubt it includes rocks-for-grapes. The lab researchers made that one up, and the capuchins and birds and dogs and chimpanzees, well, they must come pre-equipped somehow with the wet-ware that allows them to participate in economies no matter what is being served for dinner.

And that must mean, then, that it is true that what glues us all together are “social contracts”. Contracts that dictate the definition of “work” and “pay”.

Beginning with our cries as a baby that seal the contract with our life-giving mother, we learn to depend on these tenuous agreements between ourselves and if one party changes things with no warning things can become disastrous.

If I knock out the “honey-do” list, I expect to get “paid” for that “work”, and if it's not what I expect? I throw the grape through the bars. I'm not proud of it, but the candor of Frans de Waal's capuchins have humbled me

Do we struggle against the obligation of “doing right” in all of these economies? I know that I do. And what would it mean to the person that was able to operate with excellence in all of these economies at the same time?

Wouldn't that be the achievement of “true happiness” or Eudaimonia? In a world of only economies, for which we are so specially adapted, it seems to me that becoming very good at operating in those economies would be a sort of “enlightenment”.

What do you guys and gals think? “Wow” on the video, right? With the monkey pounding its demanding little fist? What is this weird symbiotic relationship that we have with economies that we often find ourselves in economies where we have seemingly no input in to the social contract at all? We seem to inherit them, these economies and at times it can seem like being trapped in a world that we never made

I would go a different route.

As an example, Dogs, have a sense of Fair.

And will take note at disparity in treatment.

I would say, Animals, and Humans, have an innate sense of fairness.

We know our greed is wrong, and we try to temper it, and most often we fail.

Economies, rely on this exchange, which is based on some form of fair exchange.

"eating thier nuts and saving their raisins for sunday...."
bungle in the jungle - jethro tull

that was worth a star and a flag

ets though to be fair, critters usually go by pecking order not communism

So the natural state of affairs is income equality for all? "Economic fairness" was built into evolutionary biology?

Lol. These people will try anything to justify state-socialism.

originally posted by: NthOther
So the natural state of affairs is income equality for all? "Economic fairness" was built into evolutionary biology?

Lol. These people will try anything to justify state-socialism.

I could be mistaken but I think the lesson here is even monkey's know when they're getting the shaft and they don't appreciate it.

*flings cucumber piece*

originally posted by: theantediluvian

originally posted by: NthOther
So the natural state of affairs is income equality for all? "Economic fairness" was built into evolutionary biology?

Lol. These people will try anything to justify state-socialism.

I could be mistaken but I think the lesson here is even monkey's know when they're getting the shaft and they don't appreciate it.

*flings cucumber piece*

Yea, but if you distract that monkey with a smart phone and some Tv...

ETA:
Maybe have some MSM commentators tell the other monkey that it was the monkey with the good foods hard work dedication that lead him there, and his blatant laziness gave him a rock...

originally posted by: theantediluvian

I could be mistaken but I think the lesson here is even monkey's know when they're getting the shaft and they don't appreciate it.

*flings cucumber piece*

Shouldn't you be more upset about keeping animals in cages and doing experiments on them with obvious political undertones?

Where's the moral outrage about that?

*skillfully catches and happily eats cucumber piece*

This is a very compartmentalized argument, however. A more appropriate test would be to put the monkey getting the grape through a more rigorous series of "jobs" and then see what happens...
Will:
A. the cucumber monkey advance to the complex series of jobs in an effort to get a grape instead of a cucumber?
B. the cucumber monkey feel entitled to a grape simply because he exists, ignoring the additional labors and opportunity costs of the grape getting monkey?
C. the cucumber monkey try to lay claim to half of the grape plus keep his cucumber all while doing a fraction of the work?

Very, very infrequently (except when we're talking about pay for women in Obama's White House) are we discussing equal pay for equal effort in 2014. The current argument rests a lot more on "I am entitled to more money because person XYZ is getting more money" in complete absence of the perspectives of whether person XYZ is putting forth more effort, taking on more personal risks, or absorbing a greater amount of personal stresses.

Those monkeys need more processed food and fluoride in there diets to dull their critical thinking ability. Very funny video.

"Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning."

Yes and in a world of greed at the top run rampant the very nature of fair economic exchange is failing under there weight, like a ship with too much on top the economy runs the risk of collapse due to growing lack of wealth distribution and tax burden transferrance to the poorest member's of society.
There is nothing wrong with being rich but there is ethic's and lack of ethic's and today's economic model seem's hell bent on the lack of ethic's greed is good model which fuels the growing poverty both the first and third world.

a reply to: LABTECH767

"Tax burden transference to the poorest"
Huh? Over half of America pays nothing in income tax at the end of the day and 2/3rds of them actually get more out than they put in. Are you suggesting that more subsidies should go to the bottom half, paid for out of the sweat of America's middle and upper class? May I ask why? Just existing doesn't entitle anyone to a share of someone else's earned income.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

This is 100% true. Existence is not entitlement. Similarly, my existence should not predicate a demand a revenue stream.

Humans are not allowed to become feral in the western world.

a reply to: Bybyots

Good thread.

Knowing that, I have to ask: are all organisms neurologically, or biologically wired to expect to live and operate in a world of economies?

It might be cultural phenomenon. One might wonder what the monkey might do outside the confines of a governed and conditioned environment. One might wonder what we might do given the same chance.

Thank you all for taking an interest in the thread and for posting your thoughts.

I have had this quote from Takuan Sōhō on my mind all afternoon. I suppose because it has to do with giving and taking and rocks.

To think that I can perpetrate some unpleasantness on a man and avoid his verbal abuse-this is nothing but a manifestation of desire.

It is the kind of passion involved when a man gives someone a rock and, if the person gives him gold in return, becomes his friend; but if the other gives him a rock in return, cuts off his head.

When a man praises another in glowing terms, such words are likely to be returned to him as well. But when he slanders another and, the slander being given back in kind, cuts off the man's head and dies himself, this is desire. It is the opposite of right-mindedness and the height of stupidity.

info.stiltij.nl...=24&zoom=auto,0,720

-Takuan Sōhō, The Unfettered Mind

To be fair it was written in response to questions from the famous Yagyū Munenori (Jubei!!!) and was meant to keep samurai from throwing their lives away in duels, but hey; economies and rocks.

a reply to: Bybyots

I think this shows that all of creation has an inherent understanding of their natural state of being, even if they temporarily forget due to pleasure or pain.

Whether a person or animal, if you find your self in a system you have not built, if it does not comply with your natural wants or needs, you will likely revolt.

If the system wants you to comply with its purpose, it must also comply with your purpose.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

The cheated monkey can see the other monkey perform an identical or similar task, yet they receive the same reward. So even monkeys can sense and do not like undeserved favoritism.

I think in the more rigorous experiment that you suggest, the cheated monkey would aspire to achieve the more complex tasks if he was given the opportunity. If he could not complete the advance task, I think he would accept the lesser reward with the understanding of why without being outraged.

I would even add a test where only one monkey was given the chance to complete an advanced activity for a better or additional award. I suppose not being given a chance could also register as unfair.

a reply to: burdman30ott6
I posted this somewhere else but it applies just as much here.

Warning, some foul language:

Maybe the monkey just dislike(/don't want to eat) the cucumber,nothing related with the work.
Monkeys can't talk anyway.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Very, very infrequently (except when we're talking about pay for women in Obama's White House) are we discussing equal pay for equal effort in 2014.

That's true, and usually the ones doing more work are getting paid less. The CEO's are getting million dollar bonuses while the workers, who are doing all the work that keep the company in business, are getting paid peanutes compared to the CEO.