I am Bruce Lee

a reply to: CardiffGiant
Daaammmn! That dude scares me just from his voice. He's a monster of a man. I bet he's got great stories to tell! I'll be researching the fellas you mentioned above. Thanks for the great info. I'm a casual MMA fan but I love learning about fighters from back in the day. As you said, men back then were chiseled from stone. No nonsense. They were out to hurt each other.

originally posted by: CardiffGiant
and 1 more thing going back to bruce lee and his training...

i am not a fan of tito ortiz for various reasons but something he always said stuck with me....i(and others) have thought this way but he said it in an interview once and it stuck.

we all know his team is/was team punishment....
when asked about it he said..."you punish yourself in training so the fight is easy"

imo thats why bruce would not have been a top level guy...he was nasty, no doubt but i dont think he punished himself...
hitting the wooden man is not punishment....messing around with forms(katas) is a waste....
know what i mean?

edit again*

check out this lock....i dont even know how you deal with something like this

How would you deal with that? For starters, I'd imagine I would cry for mommy.

a reply to: CardiffGiant

I'm with Cardiff on this one. Bruce Lee. Good philosopher on paper. Didn't translate over too well to his private life. Two things about Bruce Lee other than he was a very fast striker. 1. he had a glass jaw and tried to hide it. When his buddy (a non martial artists) while fooling around with him in his kitchen one time accidently clipped him in the jaw. Bruce went out instantly. A second later he comes to and starts wailing on his friend. So bruce was a little insecure and arrogant. 2. He had a horrible application of his philosophy when it came to his private life. Real bad people skills it turned out. He could be charming but underneath it all was a man driven by relentless insecurity.

Here's a poll. Who would win in a fight. Bruce Lee or Gene Lebell a wrestler. Well we already know the answer to that. Gene Lebell. Since he already did beat bruce in a incident. Or better yet. Danny Inosanto Vs. Bruce Lee. I'd go with Danny Inosanto over bruce any day of the week. His Majapahit system is lethal.

a reply to: BASSPLYR

i remember hearing about that...
another story i read from one of his students was ho bruce had amazing concentration.....apparently he could watch tv, read a book, and hold his leg extended in a side kick position...

now are we supposed to be impressed by that? none of that really means anything.
the more i think about it the more it seems like the physical things bruce did was a parlor trick.

the one inch punch....ok....seen the vids lots of times. i know all about it but i still have my doubts. either way, my doubts aside, what does that 1 inch punch mean? again, not really anything....
it is 100% useless in a fight. youre not going to have your opponent standing still while you ready yourself and deliver the dim mak.....you know.
it would be different if the 1 inch punch doubled in energy at 2 inches. and 6 inches. then he might be able to do some damage.

we all have seen vids of bruce hitting the wooden man and hitting it very fast...so?
speed in a dummy does not equal speed in a fight against someone thinking and fighting back.

we have all seen him do his 2 fingered, 1 armed push ups.....what is that supposed to tell us?
he was strong...yeah, ok.....brock lesnar is strong.....he cant fight for #.
lots of guys are crazy strong but cant take a hit.

thats kind of where i have been with bruce for years now.

i know now all martial arts revolve around fighting or at least not mma rules. thing is bruce wrote books on fighting/hand to hand combat. it bothers me that he never tried to put his skills to the test.
legends dont count. sorry but a demo at a kempo tournament dont count. being able to watch tv while you kick the air dont count.

a reply to: CardiffGiant

I agree regarding parlor tricks. He also, misrepresented some stuff that does work by using them as parlor tricks. For instance the one inch punch. There is no real one inch punch. there is whats known as short power. Especially in the system he studied martial arts in, wing chun. Most southern systems from the same region have better manifestations of the short power in my opinion. But what it really is, is using proper body structure to develop full body power (mostly from the legs and hips and even lats) from a short distance. Boxers do this too when they do bag work. Look at a tight body hook or a tight upper cut or hook to the head. It's done from in real close, but watch how the boxer loads the various parts of his body, watch his structure, and then watch how he slams the bag so easily. He is using the exact same trick as the one inch punch. The difference is bruce lee showed it from a static useless position. A good fighter trains and can use it in real time while using things like footwork. You know like when a boxer does a side step and launches a tight body hook that connects. It will also knock a person straight down. Wing chun systematically studies how to achieve this by paying attention to over all body alignment, but they fall short by not actually learning to use it with their footwork. they say they have foot work but do they really? Boxer have foot work. Wrestlers have footwork. South east asian styles have footwork.

Funny part most of bruce lee's stuff was long range. Intercepting the strike at a distance, not up close and personal. He got this mainly from his fencing studies and studying arts that primarily developed out of weapon work. Stop hits, ripostes. that sort of stuff. Look at his Jeet Kun Do back fist or his south paw stance. Weapon first. that all came from fencing. But not short range where the physical techniques that lead to his parlor trick the one inch punch would come into play.

Also, He never really got far enough in his formal studies before he went off on his own because he knew better somehow. to even learn how to properly use a wooden man. Often when one is learning to use the wooden man Mook jong. They will be shown the famous photo of bruce using the wooden dummy to demonstrate how NOT to use it. His technique was wrong. How he stood was wrong while using it. SO he misrepresented the use of the wooden man there too in a way.

I personally own a wooden man. they are fantastic....if you use them right and pay attention to what it's supposed to be teaching you. You don't use it as a speed bag. and doing so on one proves nothing. Wooden men have their uses. Use it to learn flanking footwork and counter attacks. Sorta like how a boxer might use a heavy bag for the same thing. Use it to learn about your opponents shoulders. Many kung fu guys even boxers do beautiful combos and flurries of techniques when they are shadow boxing. Looks fantastic. But really try that flurry of combos on some one much taller. Oh Snap! They don't work. their upper arm fends and the shoulder are inconveniently in the way every time. Crap! I need to go back and learn all my techniques again but modify them so that they strike at their intended targets on a realistically sized opponent. I'm short so say someone 6 feet tall or more. I need to switch my elbow placement or my punching surface. Maybe a tight hook to the head using a fist is unrealistic because I'm short, switch it to an open palm strike etc...But wait! Now I have no power cause my structure doing these new modifications are all wrong. OK now go slowly and re work the new technique and get the body mechanics right. But whatever you do don't go fast.

Also, the wooden man weighs 200 pounds (mine does) and is solid wood (oak) punching it full force (which you can) bare knuckled is good training. Better than taping and padding them fists up.

There is more. But the point is Bruce didn't know how to use a dummy and misrepresented himself on one. Which sucks because wooden dummy's are a useful tool that have been around for a 1000 years in one form or another. Whether it was a poor tree (i've done that) or a post in the ground to work against or a heavy punching bag. the lessons are similar.

But a wooden man doesn't fight back and adapt to you. You still need to spar. and simply get good through experience.

I believe wrestlers win once the y get close most often over strikers for one good reason. Strikers (and I'm primarily one) don't like getting withing grappling distance because it doesn't allow for one to use their hand eye coordination any more. If you are within arms reach then the person can hit you before you can even react. This is because the person is already several steps ahead of you. or really is only doing one step. Striking you in the face. You are three steps behind because you have to 1. see the strike coming theres a reaction time just for that. 2. decide what to do about the strike, theres a reaction time penalty for that too. 3. send a signal from the brain to the arm to flail out and stop incoming threat. You're three steps behind and now jabbed in the face. So at close range you cannot rally use your hand EYE coordination. What you can use is your proprioception and physical touch reaction time. You respond much, much faster to touch then through visual. It's just how the brain is wired. So, if you maintain physical contact with the opponent, either via using your opposite hand (from the one doing the striking) as a checking hand always touching your opponents body somewhere like a south east asian or maybe a boxer would do or through more solid contact like a judo player or a wrestler. THis gives you instant feedback via touch that the brain can process and respond to much quicker than visual and you stay at the same step as the opponent in case he tries something. This is a critical skill and most places don't teach it well. There is sticky hands and all sorts of drills that kung fu guys do but most of them do it like a fun game and don't get dynamic and into it enough where they are basically sparring using sticky hands while moving around. You are learning to maintain contact with your opponent and feel the direction of force so you can respond quickly to it. Not develop psychic skills by listening toyour opponents chi or something. WHich is the crap that get taught these days. ANd while I'm at ranting about crap being taught these days. Tai Chi. WTH!!!! Chen Tai Chi is combative. the crap you see in the park Yang tai chi used to be combative, but then a bunch of new age hippies who knew nothing about the art and really thought it was about relaxation and healing (the movements teach you proper body alignment and mechanics to issue FORCE not blend with the force like a rag doll. ) because it teaches you proper body mechanics which can help improve your balance and posture etc. but aren't inteded for that. Go see a chiropractor are a physical therapist, don't waste the beauty behind tai chi's method of teaching proper body mechanics to ISSUE FORCE (Ging) by doing it like some stupid misled new age hippy in the park. If you can't do a stroke horse main or whatever against a poll and shoulder check the mo fo HARD. then you are doing it wrong. And are a stupid misled tai chi nut. Real tai chi is combative.

a reply to: BASSPLYR

i love the traditional, northern/southern style chinese martial arts.
i love the motions. the philosophy. theyre beautiful and i hope people pass the knowledge down forever.
bak mei, hung gar.....one hard, one soft....theyre fantastic.

fantastic for personal growth, fitness, cardio, etc......real low impact stuff.

when it comes to actual combat though...not so much...

that is been proven in brazil for 100 years, in japan for 50 years, and the states for 25 years.
those styles simply do not work....
honestly, western boxing, while beautiful is pretty ineffective as well.

dont get me wrong. in boxing rules then of course its fine. on the street if youre skilled in boxing and the other guy is skilled in nothing, you will probably be fine.

if you box though and you get into a scrap with a guy that can take it to the ground then youre going to have problems. thats just the way it is.
we have all seen school yard fights and scraps on the street....guys that really dont know the mechanics of what they are doing. they flail around and put their head right out there and it usually goes to the ground...
if you cant handle yourself in the ground then youre only a half a fighter imo.....

not saying you have to be a jitsu master or a submission guru but it would be good to know some transitions and escapes at least.

imo if youre going to be the most effective as you can be then you need to train on your feet and on the ground....

if you spent some time at a muay thai gym and then spent some tiime going ground work then you would be a very dangerous man...not saying ready for the ufc but you would probably be able to handle most 1 on 1 conflicts you would find yourself in on the street.
i dont mean you personally....i mean people

not everyone learns a martial art to be a fighter....thats good.
its best not to fight....
i can fight and i have fought but i prefer not to......thats kind of the trick. knowing enough and being confident enough in your skills to know you dont have to use them.,...

there are lots of reasons to take up any number of the styles we talked about...im sure the traditional styles will always be around and i sure hope so....there is beautiful history to them....
ultimately not effective in a real world fight situation....

thats been proven 1,000 times by now.


i remember when this guy named jason delucia fought in one of the early ufc's. he was a jeet kun do guy. this was when it was still new in the stated and the commentators didnt even know what they were looking at.

anyway, jason fought royce gracie and royce was on the bottom trapping jasons arm....jason was kind of half standing against the fence. the announcer started saying how royce was in trouble and we are going to see jeet kin do in action....the whole time i was thinking to myself "am i watching the same fight".......it took about 5 seconds and royce popped his arm out of socket from the bottom....
done and done....

all of a sudden people started to pay attention to the lighter fighters...guys that did things on the ground.
changed martial arts forever.....
finally ground work had a legit spot outside of high school and college wrestling.

a reply to: CardiffGiant

Ah you and I could be great friends! I agree with a lot of what you just said. You need to learn grappling just as much as striking. A long time ago before I knew any ground work I went at it with a guy in the park that was sorta good at Jujitsu. I was screwed. I was 100 pounds stronger than him but I just couldn't get out. So I started learning from the guy some of the ground work. I found it immensely useful. He then started showing me philippine wrestling and dumog. Dislocated my shoulder with a reverse hammer lock while standing. Took me 18 months to get over that injury. Grappling can be very effective.

But...so can good striking. flank the guy with footwork, set a line of attack and blast the guy. Guy shoots for the legs or hips, crack him in the back of the head/neck with your elbow or forearm and attempt to sprawl. But if you go down to even one knee better learn some ground game. Speaking of forearms that's a whole other post I could max out typing about. But I'll save that. I think they are super useful both in striking and grappling.

I disagree about boxing I think boxing can be very effective. Especially Philippine dirt boxing that comes from Panantukan. Great stuff.

Also, ankle picks!!!! Holy crap ankle pick while locking a guys knee... the first time someone did that to me I apparently looked like one of those videos where a guy standing gets shot with a tazer locks up and falls to the ground like timber. I swear it hurt worse than a stun gun too.

Regarding Bak Mei and Hung Gar. Both are southern arts from the Pearl River area near Foshan. Both are exceptional in my opinion. Along with Baji and some of Xing yi and Lung Ying (very similar to Bak Mei) and southern mantis (Chu Gar/Jook lum).

I've studied a little of Bak Mei. I think it is geared better towards street altercations than other kung fu systems. It's half soft half hard. Expressing it's self via the hard. Half of it's techniques can be found in what they teach in police work, kajukembo, and others. It favors the forearm brachial stun that cops love to use. It uses full body weight when striking. Has lots of elbows. The first thing they teach you is the finger jab when someone gets too close followed be a right cross. Pretty solid. They teach this while driving in to a clinched type of position so you can check the opposite hand. From there the first move which leads into their first real form or sequence (Sup Gee - Sil Sek) is the grab back of neck and cross elbow to face with opposing arm, followed by a back fist when you unfurl your elbow arm, which leads to a throw to the ground. Solid. But even there they know get him down on the ground fast. Usually so you can stomp them. . That's why I like Judo. Get past the guys defenses, slip in and throw guy to ground. Follow up with stomp to the head. Simple, effective. Bak Mei's last grandmaster was a guy named Cheung Lai Chuan. Pretty hard core guy. Was the chief instructor for the local military academy's hand to hand combat. Later moved to Hong Kong and was so favored by the gangsters and triads as a hand to hand martial arts teacher that they would follow him around and dote on him. He hated it though and didn't want anything to do with the bad element. But that's what favored his system. The bad guys cause it worked.

personally I believe all the southern Chinese arts that stem from the Hakka peoples (Bak Mei, SOuthern Mantis) were from the elite ming dynasty troops. They learned it from the Indians. most of it's techniques and principles look like Dravidian Martial arts from the south india region to me. Basically when the Majapahit kingdom was on the rise and it got spread around. IT's efficient and deadly. Lots of spinal compression injuries associated with Dravidian arts. Called Silat in the South East. Various things in southern china. Bando in Burma. Kali/Kuntao in the Philippines etc...

But yeah. I think you and I are arguing two sides to the same coin. I highlight why striking can work and what it's pitfalls can be. You highlight the grappling. Both are critical. I've already discussed why I think grappling generally wins. But I also know that if you are throwing your fists in the other guys face 99 percent of the fight you are probably going to win 90 percent of the time. Everything goes out the window when you've just been punched in the face.

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: CardiffGiant


I disagree about boxing I think boxing can be very effective. Especially Philippine dirt boxing that comes from Panantukan. Great stuff.

Also, ankle picks!!!! Holy crap ankle pick while locking a guys knee...

But I also know that if you are throwing your fists in the other guys face 99 percent of the fight you are probably going to win 90 percent of the time. Everything goes out the window when you've just been punched in the face.

i dont dislike boxing....i just think there are other, more effective striking styles out there. i just think that if youre a striker only you will probably have some problems vs if you were a grappler only.

i think maybe 8 times out of 10 a pure grappler beats a pure striker.....to be the most effective you need both though.

aaaaah...the ankle pick....i always preach about ankle picks...a lot of people dont like them but its because they dont do them properly so it feels very unnatural. it does not look like much but its a pretty brutal takedown and if you do it properly you wind up in a fantastic position....

youre correct about getting blasted in the face....nobody likes to hit...as a matter of fact thats the reason i started grappling. before the ufc or any of that...i was in a couple school yard fights and i learned very fast that i do not like getting hit in the face.

there are lots of tough mofo's out there that cant take a hit.....also, even if you can take the hit, if a punch comes through clean with proper timing and hits the button then youre going out and i dont like that...
anyone can get knocked out....

now that we are talking about it i remember several years ago when brock lesnar(what a joke) decided to enter the ufc...he was training in minnesota and apparently the deal in the gym was "nobody hits brock in the face"...

i didnt understand...how can you train for a fight like that? well, you cant....that was proven....brock started getting tagged in the face and just didnt know how to deal with it.

i remember bas rutten saying the first thing brock should do is squats against the wall while taking shots to the face....i agree with that

a reply to: CardiffGiant

I agree you can't train to get hit everywhere else except the face. Bas was right in regards to brock. I love Bas btw. He's honest. I also have a friend who got to work with him on a set one time. I think for an interview he was giving. Said he was a total gentleman. Like you could trust him to baby sit your kids, just friendly and honest. Ever hear the story of where he got in a fight at a bar in Holland. Beat up all of the security then found out most of them were moonlighting dutch police. And got very lucky he didn't go to jail, since he didn't instigate the altercation. Said waves and waves of these guys kept coming at him. But he handled them all. Mostly y throwing them onto the ground. Bas is cool. I'd take any advice he has to give regarding fighting.

I remember my teacher used to literally bitch slap me in the face when we would spar anytime my guard was down. either because I was getting sloppy and ahead of my self or because I was getting tired. Now I am very conscious of keeping my hands in and up, and in front of me.

Bruce couldn't take a hit. Plus he had that long neck. Long necks mean easy knock out to me if a blow lands. Short thick necks equal harder to knock out. But once you've gotten enough force to land correctly a knock out will happen to anyone. I remember my first full contact tournament when I was young. I was doing point matches before. The competitor sitting right next to me leans over and asks me so how many tournaments have you been in how'd you do? I was honest. Gave a decent number said "All First and Second Place" Well my first match comes up and its against the same guy. We slap gloves. Match starts. Very first thing he does is jump up and kick me right in the face. I go instantly out. Wake up stammering to my feet with a guy counting next to me in some foreign language. I was all confused. I just lost my first match to a KO and failure at the standing 8 count. I turn around to just in time to see my coach turn his back on me and walk out of the ring. That was my introduction to real fighting. Now I could probably beat my old coach down. It's been a few decades and I didn't give up and kept on trying, learning, growing.

I like that bruce got people interested in MA. I like that Bruce was a figure for reducing racism towards Asians at the time. I like his use what works philosophy. Don't like that he did exactly stick to his philosophy all the time. He too got set in his ways. I think Danny Inosanto took bruces philosophy and really grew it into something useful. Danny is a genius when it comes to MA. But to think that bruce is the end all be all is just ignorance.

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: CardiffGiant

I agree you can't train to get hit everywhere else except the face. Bas was right in regards to brock. I love Bas btw.

i love bas. he is like a fight scientist....i loved when he was calling the fights for pride. he would call it exactly like it happened. calling out a move or a lock a couple minutes before it happens.

i heard that story too. bas is so funny and humble. maybe its because he knows that he can mess up most guys on the face of the planet....well, maybe not now..he has not been healthy in a while.

back when he called fights for pride i know he was trying hard to get a fight with rickson gracie and for whatever reason it didnt happen. that was right around the time rockson(ricksons son) was killed so maybe that was why.

i was amped up about that fight though....rickson is a ground master and bas is the liver kick god. that would have been a hell of a fight.
bas and his liver kicks....he has been preaching liver kicks to people for 20 years......ever been rocked in the liver? it shuts you down man.....

did you see the fight where alistair overeem destroyed brock? overeem hit brock with a nasty liver kick. it took about 2 seconds to register in brocks body that he was shutting down and he just collapsed..then overeem destroyed him with face shots. it was beautiful.
i didnt call how it was going to end but all the ufc/wwe fanboys the world over were talking about how brock was going to ruin overeem and yadda yadda...you know brock has crazy training vids of him throwing heavy bags around like rag dolls...
parlor tricks..
everyone i talked too i said nope....overeem is going to expose him and he did...he ruined him...

i know bas was trying to get a fight with fedor about 10 years ago too. bas was a bit more active then....i think that would have been a great fight too. i think fedor would have got him though.
thats back when fedor was destroying everyone and bas was already having problems with his health.
imo, bas rutten might be the best all around fighter....i would have to think about it....not my personal favorite(thats for sakuraba) but bas had it all. the skill. the charisma....the philosophy....he was a machine...

he used to paint big ass r's on his hands for 'relax' so it would remind him to stay calm in the fight...always thought that was cool.

you should check out some of sakurabas fights from pride...he used the ankle pick a lot...he has a perfect execution.

i saw you mention judo also....i think judo is very often over looked.....judo is imo a great base for a devastating fight game. iff you have solid judo you have a good chance to do well.
ronda rousey anyone....hidehiko yoshida too.


what are some of your favorite submissions?

i want to show you two of mine....you sound like you know what you are talking about so you will appreciate these.

this is nick diaz putting takanori gomi into a sick gogoplata....you dont see these too often in mma but every now and again it happens in sport jitsu



i love this one....the peruvian necktie....its amazing



probably seen this...flying armbar by rumina sato



youre a fan of striking...please check this guy out...he used to fight for zst in japan...i dont know what he is up to now but he was a small guy and had some of the most devastating strikes i have ever seen

en.wikipedia.org...

here is a highlight vid man....he is not too well known. i think he is a better striker than anderson silva, vanderlei silva, jon jones...etc...

brutal



im glad we got to talking because i forgot about remmy

if you watch the vid of remmy you will see that he is a muay thai guy....he uses the plum famously...

off the top of my head a couple strikers to check out that are not that well known in the states are peter aerts, ernesto hoost, and andy hug and jerome lebanner.

ever notice that some of the most devastating strikers come out of holland?

a reply to: CardiffGiant

He sure does use the Plum well.

Yep noticed a lot of great strikers come from Holland. 1. they are big, so they have good reach and probably like to keep people at range. 2. they had a long stint in Indonesia (dutch Indos) and brought back a lot of their boxing which revolves around rapid and devastating strikes.

The Peruvian Neck Tie looks awesome. That's brutal. The guy didn't even know where to tap out he was so disorientated.

I have to head out for my lunch break, yes I'm typing all this at the office and should be working. I'll be back to write up a better response in an hour or so.

But in the mean time upon deep thought and reflection, I've decided to throw away all of my black belts and train with the best instructor I have ever seen. Master Ken of the Ameri-Do-Te system. I am a proud new white belt in his system because everything else is BS. Ameri-Do-Te "Best of all, worst of none." "Home of the Hurticane"

I'll be back in short while, gotta step away from the computer.

a reply to: BASSPLYR

cool man. i look forward to talking to you about this some more. i can go on for days about this stuff.

like helio gracie said....all belts are good for is holding up your pants.