Why does proof of God somehow destroy the concept of Faith??

a reply to: iSomeone

True faith does not require proof or evidence, so saying that proof leads to faith is completely backwards. Of course, I'd rather have conclusive knowledge than just deep-rooted belief. Being forced to an answer, rather than choosing the most comfortable option out of a list of possibilities ranging from likely to far-fetched. You know, the way forensics teams do it in crime shows. Those are real methods they employ, methods that eliminate human error and rely solely on the facts. And those would, I hope, be the methods by which God is proven. Otherwise, well, he's not.

But there are many here who say that proof of God negates his efficacy. The less reason you have to believe in him, the more you should, and the better he is at answering. With such rationale at your side, you could defend the divine power of anything from bananas to dead squirrels. My god could be a jug of milk, and I guarantee its effectiveness would rival that of your god. As long as I pray to it regularly and make concerted efforts to convince myself of its power, that jug of milk is no different from Jesus.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

You say true faith does not require proof or evidence, interesting that you think that.

Nevertheless God does not teach that. In fact the Bible states this:

(Hebrews 11:1) Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.

Faith is the "evident demonstration of realities though not beheld."

You can illustrate it this way, if you will. If I told you the sun is going to rise in the east tomorrow, would you be able to put faith in it? You haven't seen it happen it. But do you have any basis to state that there has been evidence and proof shown that it will? If you have, then you can say you have faith that it will. That is the Biblical faith.

Faith in the true God is not based on some blind whim or on mere conjecture. It is only based on firm sound reasoning, and facts which are provable.

True not all people have faith. Even scriptures states:

(2 Thessalonians 3:2) . . .for faith is not a possession of all people.


You may ask why that is. It is because God only reveals himself to the meek and the humble. To the arrogant and haughty he hides himself. That is why Jesus proclaimed:

(Matthew 11:25) . . .: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.

a reply to: iSomeone

We've been through this. "Evident demonstration of realities though not beheld" is literally a contradiction of terms.

If I told you the sun is going to rise in the east tomorrow, would you be able to put faith in it? You haven't seen it happen it.

Uh, yeah, I have. I've seen the sun rise in the east plenty of times. It's kind of been a regular thing throughout my life.

You may ask why that is. It is because God only reveals himself to the meek and the humble. To the arrogant and haughty he hides himself.

What's the point in hiding? Seems a little childish. You have upset me, so I am now ignoring you, even though every second I ignore you is another second I waste when I could have been saving your precious soul. That just sounds so helpful.

a reply to: iSomeone

I'm sorry, but, I just have to remind you of this very true chart:

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: iSomeone

I'm sorry, but, I just have to remind you of this very true chart:

It is not true for persons of true faith. True faith is based on facts that are provable.

I don't have time to give you a detailed explanation at this time. But ask me later and I will be happy to share with you how there are several reasons that we can prove that the word of God is accurate and had to have come from a divine source, including scientific facts, archaeological proof, and prophecy that has come true, that we can prove without a shadow of a doubt could not have written beforehand. As well as other things.

It is true, some false Christians who really don't investigate may have a dead faith, but they really do not know what faith is, and it is not to that type of faith that the Bible is referring, or is true faith.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

I respect your right to be irritated at the Bible, and to ignore me for quoting it. You are in the majority, and it does not offend me. Your rejection is of Jehovah and his word, not myself. I do not take it personally. It really takes a humble and meek heart to accept truth. No wonder Jesus stated:

(Matthew 5:5) . . .“Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.

Things can be real but not seen. For example you do not see the wind, but you have evidence that it exists. And like you said, you have proof that the sun will rise tomorrow because it has risen in the past.

God has given us proof in his word that he exists. And there is evidence to back it up. I do not have time to give you a big list right now, but ask me later and I will be happy to share with you, if you are sincere, many things that may open your eyes to startling truths which you have perhaps never even thought of contemplating before.

Faith is possible. It starts with taking in accurate knowledge of truth.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

And for the record I do love you. I do not know you, nor anyone else here. But that does not diminish my love. I would prefer that you condescend to talk with me about what you may hate and detest so much. But that is up to you. The truth is wonderful. But you must be humble to accept it. And you have the choice to choose it or reject it.

a reply to: iSomeone

God has given us proof in his word that he exists. And there is evidence to back it up. I do not have time to give you a big list right now, but ask me later and I will be happy to share with you, if you are sincere, many things that may open your eyes to startling truths which you have perhaps never even thought of contemplating before.

Faith is possible. It starts with taking in accurate knowledge of truth.

You and your contradictions! Faith, by definition, doesn't require knowledge - at least, not in the sense that facts do. Faith essentially disregards facts altogether. Doesn't need them. That's what faith is. So your last line doesn't make any sense, if that's supposed to be some kind of motivational quip. And while I appreciate the offer, I'm skeptical that anything you have to tell me would change what my open eyes see...in this regard, at least. I've seen what you have presented and argued on this forum, and I admire the attempt, but it still doesn't hold water. Then again, we've been a little off topic for a while now, I think. The actual topic is proof negating faith. This is, by definition, what happens when evidence is taken into consideration.You have a substantial reason to seriously consider a conclusion.

So that answers that question. Also, 'love' is not a word I throw around lightly, and neither should you. I don't know you, I don't love you, I'm not sure I even like you. Love is something that happens when there is true comprehension and appreciation of the other person, and I am nothing more than text on your screen. We've never spoken directly to each other, we've never met face to face, and chances are, we never will. For all you know, I'm a very well-designed artificial intelligence system with a pre-programmed background and personality profile that enables me to blend in with humans on the internet. Maybe whenever I'm on here, there's just a different administrator manually operating the machine that is me. Maybe what you know as me, AfterInfinity, is just a team of aloof, albeit easily amused, scientists and techies messing around online, testing me, building me. For all you know.

So no, you don't love me. Because you don't know me. And I'm alright with that. Sorry for going off topic, the administrator got a little protective of me.

a reply to: DuckforcoveR

What kind of proof would you consider to be irrefutable proof of God's existence?

originally posted by: UB2120
a reply to: DuckforcoveR

What kind of proof would you consider to be irrefutable proof of God's existence?

He walks up to me, declares his identity, and demonstrates it by creating a complete miniature Earth in the palm of his hand. He then puts his hand on my shoulder and transports us to a location directly in front of a black hole, but neither of us is sucked in. Everything else but us is affected by the gravitational well, and yet it's right there in front of me. He flies me around a few galaxies for a spell, racing shooting stars and dodging asteroids, then we go for a brief but, erm, illuminating stroll on the surface of a sun. After that, he takes me into a series of panoramic clips, perfect recreations of events beginning with the day he created the Earth, and shows me clips of critical moments in Earth's history. I'm able to personally witness every event exactly as he saw it. After that, he takes me for a cup of coffee and discusses his role in the universe and how that impacts his relationship with me. The entire time, he always knows exactly what I'm thinking, and responds to even my unspoken questions and concerns.

I think that would do for an excellent start.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

Jesus told us:

(Matthew 5:46) 46 For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing?

Then he says:

(Luke 6:35) 35 To the contrary, continue to love YOUR enemies. . .


Yes, a true Christian is noted for his love. Not only of Jehovah but of all people, even those who hate him, put him down, and persecute him.

A Christian loves even those who would kill him for his love, and deny his love.

You have obviously not come to this point in your life to understand what true love is, nor the power of God's word in ones life. I do love you. You may deny it, and reject me. God loves you too. You may deny it and reject him. That does not negate this fact.

For this reason, when you really come to love and understand love everything else falls into place.

Again, I respect your right to reject understanding of this basic truth. It does not negate the fact, anymore than not believing in the law of gravity will negate its effect....

(1 John 4:7, 8) . . ., let us continue loving one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born from God and gains the knowledge of God. 8 He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.

a reply to: iSomeone

You have obviously not come to this point in your life to understand what true love is, nor the power of God's word in ones life. I do love you. You may deny it, and reject me. God loves you too. You may deny it and reject him. That does not negate this fact.

I can't reject someone who doesn't exist to me.