Scientist say the wave function is a non physical reality

a reply to: neoholographic

Cool thread OP. I saw some articles regarding wave-particles that I thought was interesting. Maybe more breakthroughs in teleportation are in store for the nearish future. Technology can use energy expressed as waves to transmit information or even automatically organize particles in a single moment. This could be used in computer tech, supercomputers could use this to process and transmit information in a moment. Transfer entire terabytes in one moment from computer to computer, loading becomes a thing of the past.

Maybe we can send waves into sub-space if there is a medium and it could then materialize into a particle wherever that is in one single moment. This could be useful. It would be like stem-cells that transfer material. You put something in the teleporter, the particles are somehow forced to be expressed as waves and transferred to another teleporter which is filled with a medium, once the waves transfer their energy to the medium the medium becomes the teleported item. This could be feasible.

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: ImaFungi
I have often heard that if something like telepathy were to be proven. It would deal a sever blow to efficacy of the current laws of physics.

So it would not mean the Universe was fake.

So once again, either their math is wrong...that is to say, math was written out as theory, and they did silly dumb physicist things like giving time its own existence and that sort of thing, other faulty assumptions and cutting corners and stuff, and the math they built their theories on is a ghostly house of cards that will not stand but they glued it together with pixie dust and illusion juice, or their math is 100 percent correct, is an exact symbolic replication of reality, and reality, this universal reality, must then be a fakery.

The math could be real for the most part and the universal reality could be real as well. The math is not a complete representation because there is still endless work to be done, but it is accurate at representing details. I think there is a parallel to this concept when it comes to our conscious measurements of reality as well, they are incomplete representations of the reality at hand. We look at one number as a single individual number but in reality it is the product of every other number besides itself. To try to explain it's like in the highest, most tangible and complete reality the number 5 is really every number from 1 to infinity except the number 5, but in our limited consciousness we see the number 5 as the number 5, distinct and separated from the other numbers.

a reply to: On7a7higher7plane I wonder how the number -1/12 th plays into all of this ?

Particles at opposite ends of a galaxy can instantaneously react to each other, and can exist in more than one place simultaneously.

This is pure opinion. Such extremes have never and could never be tested. This theory hasn't even been tested on opposite sides of the earth let alone opposite ends of a galaxy. How could it be possibly known that one particle at one end of a galaxy is in instantaneous communication with another particle on the opposite end of the galaxy? You cannot possibly expect a small experiment in a room to equate to such extremes.

It now seems this world may be even more complicated, allowing communication to occur without a physical medium.

All depends on the definition of 'physical', which does not equate to 'material'. Material is substance, whereas 'physicality' is an energetic interaction, a correspondence between quantum fields. Materiality is a condensation of energy which in this condition displays mass. It's 'physical' attribute only comes into play when in interaction with other energy condensations. So we can ask a question...does 'immateriality' cause a 'physical' effect?

We know that two bar magnets can affect each other via their magnetic fields. Depending upon their polarity, we have either an 'attractive' or 'repulsive' effect, causing the materiality of the magnets to move towards or away from the other. We know magnetic fields are not 'material', but do have effects of 'physicality'; i.e., equal and opposite energy reaction.

Now, for information in whatever energy form to be exchanged must require in its most basic form a physical medium, but not necessarily a material one. Energy only seems to propagate through spatial vectors when carried by force carrier particles...the leptons, photon, electron, etc. Current physics holds that the photon is massless, but we know that it has electromagnetic properties and can cause 'physical' effects when hitting material objects, such as increasing the vibration rate of the material when absorbed through the exchange of kinetic energy, and thus the material warms up.

No information can be exchanged without incurring a physical response, which negates the thinking that a physical medium is not required. Not a single energy exchange of any type or of any size occurs without incurring a physical response, and this in itself determines that information to be propagated across vast spatial vectors requires a physical medium, because the propagation itself is a physical effect, but a non-material one. Bearing in mind that 'physicality' and 'materiality' are two separate and distinct natural expressions of energy.

This is easily explained.

You see matter is not what people traditionally think it is.

Matter is in fact made of space-time itself. To be more precise twisted loops and knots of space time. Energy and matter are interchangeable because energy is the movement or vibration of the space-time that makes the matter.

When you take this into account at the very fundamental levels of our reality two particles that are entangled are in reality just that... they are connected... it doesn't matter how far apart they are at our level of reality, at the fundamental level a movement in one equates to a movement in another.

This appears to violate at our level of reality causality, as it would be impossible to send information faster than light.

It is entirely conceivable then at the fundamental level of reality cause and effect are reversed and the cause at the fundamental level of reality is seen as an effect and vice-versa.

I hope this makes sense,

Peace,

Korg.

a reply to: neoholographic

Sound to me what these people are describing is pretty much the same way Ansible communications would function.

en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: ImaFungi
Animals communicate with pheromones and that seems a factor in what is referred to as telepathy. In other words due to the complexity of the brain we are able to express more complex ideas than animals are able to in this way.

In and of itself though I feel it is important to point out that humans as a whole. Seem to experience some strange sensation, when certain metal objects are placed 2 cm from their foreheads.

There is no scientific documentation in existence that seems to explain why this is happening. Myself I was brought up understanding this experience so have had plenty of time to engage in samplings. It is really simple to do; place the copper top of a number 2 pencil about 2cm from your forehead, then consider why you are having that experience.

Perhaps the Universe is an phenomenon inherent to a larger system like a rainbow is inherent to a thunderstorm.

Any thoughts?

Its quite obvious why certain metals, most likely of some magnetic variety would have affects on the brain. The brain uses electro and electro chemical impulses to function, uber complex and uber many of them. Placing an external magnetic field near the brain of significant strength would obviously disturb and mess with the brains normal functioning.

The quantum wave function behaves as a wave, exhibiting both constructive and destructive interference. But there is no known physical medium for its oscillations - the aether having been long banished by Einstein's Special Theory. So physicists learned to regard the wave function as real, yet at the same time non-physical in the sense that it conveyed information as a wave-like disturbance not in some medium filling space but in a purely mathematical space (the n-dimensional Hilbert state vector space). Then along came quantum entanglement, in which the quantum wave function of a particle that is entangled with a given particle instantaneously collapses from a supposition of all possible eigen states into a discrete eigen state whose associated eigenvalue correlates with that of the particle measured a million light years away. Despite having wave-like properties, the wave function has a mysterious non-local character that is NOT caused by hidden variables conjectured by Einstein and supporters of his contention that quantum mechanics is an incomplete theory that does not take into account stochastic processes due to hidden variables. Even if there WERE such variables, they would not be local ones (as Einstein wanted) because experiments on Bell's Inequality have now ruled them out. Therefore, if they exist at all, hidden variables have to be non-local ones that are not simply functions of the distance separating them - which merely perpetuates the counter-intuitive mystery at the centre of quantum mechanics posed by the phenomenon of quantum entanglement. Unlike what Einstein believed, physics cannot describe quantum reality; it describes only how it responds to our interaction with it with measuring instruments that operate in the large-scale, four-dimensional space-time continuum. Suppose that quantum properties like spin and supersymmetry were emergent properties of some higher-dimensional space - like the 15 spatial dimensions predicted by bosonic string theory to exist beyond the 10 spatial dimensions required by M-theory. Could it be that the spatial separateness of entangled quantum particles is an illusion, created by the fact that measurements take place only in three of the 25 spatial dimensions predicted by the quantum mechanics of spinless strings? Perhaps it is NOT that the result of observation of one entangled particle is transmitted faster than light in this hidden, higher-dimensional space to the particle entangled with it but rather that there is still only one entity, despite its parts being perhaps separated by light years, so that the problem of causality is an illusion created by our incomplete knowledge of the complete entangled system, which ALWAYS behaves as a single, indivisible whole but which does not manifest as a whole in just the four-dimensional space-time that our brains are programmed to operate in? When only the lower-dimensional parts can be measured, they will always seem to be magically connected....

www.youtube.com... the posted vid I found interesting .The author that looks at and then asks some basic questions regarding what we are being told by people who should not be contradicting themselves the way they do .

A good related thread, "Consciousness is a system":

www.abovetopsecret.com...

...and I'll link this thread to that one

a reply to: micpsi

Can you explain what is meant by more then 3 spatial dimensions existing 'within' the general 3 spatial dimensional universe we exist in? Are the extra dimensions, for example I think you mention, 15, and 10, ill just pick 15 for example; so the 3 dimensions we exist in are at the bottom of 15, meaning 12 dimensions are larger, beyond the closed universe, or are these 3 at the top of the 15, and the rest of the 12 are within, or deeper in and smaller then the 3 we exist in, or are they somewhere in the middle?

So we agree maybe electrons and quarks exist? Do we agree that these objects are 3d objects? That is to say they have an area, length, depth, and width? so 12 dimensions would mean an object would have, length, depth, width, and then... what?

a reply to: neoholographic

Alice and Bob communicated through a feature of quantum mechanics supported by Bell's Theorem, ER/EPR solutions and BEC theory, Michio Kaku touched on this in his book, "Hyperspace" and I think Kip Thorne also did in his book, "Black Holes and Baby Universes."

Both "particles" on either end of the communication path, change state at the same time because they have the appearance of being, or are, the same particle. It appears information is tunneled through a Plank length "gateway" when two particles have exactly the same state, they "sync up" and distance is irrelevant, it can be a mm's to billions of light years.

This also gives rise to the theory that all particles in the universe are "ghost" particles, in different states, of the original particle.



2D embedding diagrams of 3D structures are a bit of a problem, but imagine the two spacetime-like surfaces in the pic are the actual 3D spacetime "surfaces" of quantum superstrings (subatomic particles, there are no actual surfaces, just energy boundaries). The "wormhole" (quantum gateway) is produced between the two superstrings at Plank length when both superstrings are in "sync." When this occurs, information travels an infinitely small distance over an infinitely small period of time (still have C limitations). Since each superstring directly effects the other superstring, if one is changed, the other reflects identical change and can be measured.

That's about the simplest explanation I can give ;-)

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: the2ofusr1

I dunno maybe the question you should be asking is how isn't it playing into all of this.

JK. IDK what your point is, if you made a quip or something I'm having trouble getting it so I apologize.

a reply to: On7a7higher7plane I probably would have to say something like if you need to make sense of it all then you need to be as confused as the people who write the text books that tell us . Science as of late has hit a brick wall where up is down and false is true .I am glad I didn't go on to university to accept as fact some of the fiction that is being put into peer reviewed journals .... It could be I have a bias in the subject and I am happy with it because in the long haul most of it doesn't matter ....peace

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: neoholographic

I don't think that first example they give is a very good example. Or is incomplete or something because this part doesn't make sense the way I'm reading it.

What he does will rouse different detectors at Alice's end. In this way, Alice can infer Bob's action by checking her own detectors. But here is where it gets stranger: the photon didn't even have to leave Alice's side of the communication channel in order for her to know about Bob's choice.

Using this example, Alice is getting information based upon how Bob has chosen to set his detectors which then effect Alice's detectors. She only needs to check hers in order to know the condition of his which is fine. But I fail to see how that isn't a form of communication. Her "answer" is still being determined because of his choices, just using an indirect way of getting the info from him to her.

This is the key point, how is this information getting to Alice from Bob when there isn't a particle carrying the information? This goes to the quantum zeno effect. The photon never leaves Alice so what is Bob absorbing or reflecting? This also registers for Alice which gives her information about Bob's choice. The Quantum zeno effect is like saying a watched pot never boils. Here's more:

Superposition, which is a hallmark of the quantum world, refers to a particle's capacity to also behave like a wave, mysteriously diffusing itself through multiple routes. Once detected, it then collapses back into a particle occupying a particular location. The key to the premise of this study is to ensure this collapse always occurs on Alice's side, right where it started.

The researchers achieve this using something called the quantum Zeno effect – a phenomenon whereby repeated measurements of a quantum system leave it in its original state.

"This is a bit like Alice and Bob using pigeons to communicate – except that the pigeons never have to leave," says Zhenghong Li, one of the paper's authors.

This is mind boggling like the article said but a suspected result from those who have supported idealism. The idea that everything emerges from blind, random interactions of matter when there's no evidence that matter can construct the world that we see never made sense to me. Here's more:

One of the authors of the paper, Hatim Salih, a physicist at KACST, notes that, "unlike most communication protocols, in ours it is Bob who sends a message to Alice, not the other way round."

However, Salih says this description, in terms of Bob blocking the photon, is somewhat misleading, as no photon actually reaches Bob's side to be blocked to begin with.

"Rather than blocking or not blocking the photon," he says, "[Bob] only blocks or does not block the part of the photon's superposition that comes his way."

Like someone said earlier, this is like telepathy. The photon never leaves Alice to communicate with Bob yet Alice knows information about Bob's choices. If he didn't block or not block a photon, then what registered at Bob's detector?

I personally think quantum mechanics tells us that matter has no observable existence until it's observed. So you have a non physical wave function of information about observables and then when a measurement occurs an observable is measured. So there's no physical "reality" in terms of matter. Matter could be like play dough or even a hologram. It's the eigenstates of the observable that are real and non physical.

a reply to: neoholographic

I personally think red dog blue house tree car door lock slap money hay neighbor cart channeling baby thievery wife swapping alarm noggin dream wafer butter cup mystery magic pony dinner bell sling shot hedgehog torpedo staple gun nursery lingering tea cup pantry party muffled dorito escape spitting dali lama tuesday sun floor tile hemorrhage caterpillar rain pie choo choo fairy.

originally posted by: ImaFungi

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: ImaFungi
Animals communicate with pheromones and that seems a factor in what is referred to as telepathy. In other words due to the complexity of the brain we are able to express more complex ideas than animals are able to in this way.

In and of itself though I feel it is important to point out that humans as a whole. Seem to experience some strange sensation, when certain metal objects are placed 2 cm from their foreheads.

There is no scientific documentation in existence that seems to explain why this is happening. Myself I was brought up understanding this experience so have had plenty of time to engage in samplings. It is really simple to do; place the copper top of a number 2 pencil about 2cm from your forehead, then consider why you are having that experience.

Perhaps the Universe is an phenomenon inherent to a larger system like a rainbow is inherent to a thunderstorm.

Any thoughts?

Its quite obvious why certain metals, most likely of some magnetic variety would have affects on the brain. The brain uses electro and electro chemical impulses to function, uber complex and uber many of them. Placing an external magnetic field near the brain of significant strength would obviously disturb and mess with the brains normal functioning.

Actually the use of the copper pencil cap is to initiate the experience. With enough practice any person can have these experiences at will, without any assistance.

a reply to: Kashai


Ok...whats your point... its called thinking or the imagination. It is based off of electrical impulses, and biological mechanism and chemicals and memories stored and accessed via electrical synapses and such. Your point is that with enough practice people can achieve a state of using their imagination? Go figure.

a reply to: ImaFungi

This not the same as a sexual experience as the imagination also draws on memories. Approaching a person who has never had this experience reports the same sensation.

Its a feeling unique to the forehead area like the capacity to sense hot and cold.

As far as my point I think that is apparent I feel it is relevant to the discussion.

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: ImaFungi

This not the same as a sexual experience as the imagination also draws on memories. Approaching a person who has never had this experience reports the same sensation.

Its a feeling unique to the forehead area like the capacity to sense hot and cold.

As far as my point I think that is apparent I feel it is relevant to the discussion.

Um yea, this is nothing out of the ordinary, it has physical causes. Nothing mystical about this.