How do you Win a Religious Argument?

Hear me, because this is the truth.

1) You gather a lot of money, and a lot of power

2) Whenever someone does something you don't like, you deny them services, or you go out of your way to make their life hell

3) When the opposition brings up a valid point about how to make their lives and the lives of others better, you point out how they have failed, and it is their fault - for example, they can't buy groceries because they are gay - clearly their fault, even though you have shadily convinced the local grocer to deny services to gays.

4) Since they are failures, their idea obviously doesn't work.

5) In the end, you don't have to win any argument, you just have to maintain totalitarian control and make people believe that fault exists where it does not.

-----

I am not against religions - but I am against this kind of power play, in particular. It could also apply to rich people, to be honest, or other situations - and since I find Truth very important, any situation where lack of empathy comes into play to create misinformation makes me frustrated.

just walk away, why do you have to win anything?

okamitengu
just walk away, why do you have to win anything?

Winning is OK, but you can't win a religious argument because dogma is the only thing to argue about as far a religion goes and, well, that's just a matter of opinion...ain't it?

reply to post by darkbake

The trick is to not allow yourself to be placed in a position where you are 'forced' to make a choice. It's the sword that cuts both ways.

Religion has always been about picking a team ... and little to do with understanding what spirituality is All about.

A method which has served me well is a deeper understanding of all religions. Some people just want to talk and are comforted when you understand the choices they have burdened themselves with.

Win a religious argument, or even a political argument for that matter? Ha, that's funny. Find your nearest zealot and tell me how that goes. You'd be better off trying to convince a brick wall that it's an antelope.

Phage

okamitengu
just walk away, why do you have to win anything?

Winning is OK, but you can't win a religious argument because dogma is the only thing to argue about as far a religion goes and, well, that's just a matter of opinion...ain't it?

Faith is a personal journey.

The collective will never understand the individual.

reply to post by darkbake


EASY - the way to win a religious argument.....NEVER argue with a complete Idiot!!

Its that simple!

reply to post by darkbake


read the grand-father of Alinski technics, NLP, Goebbels or any propaganda theorist : Shopenhauer, "the art to be right"

Whereas the purpose of logic is classically said to be a method of arriving at the truth, dialectic, says Schopenhauer, "...on the other hand, would treat of the intercourse between two rational beings who, because they are rational, ought to think in common, but who, as soon as they cease to agree like two clocks keeping exactly the same time, create a disputation, or intellectual contest."

it does apply to any debate, not only religion or politics

The following lists the 38 stratagems described by Schopenhauer, in the order of their appearance in the book:

The Extension (Dana's Law)
The Homonymy
Generalize Your Opponent's Specific Statements
Conceal Your Game
False Propositions
Postulate What Has to Be Proved
Yield Admissions Through Questions
Make Your Opponent Angry
Questions in Detouring Order
Take Advantage of the Nay-Sayer
Generalize Admissions of Specific Cases
Choose Metaphors Favourable to Your Proposition
Agree to Reject the Counter-Proposition
Claim Victory Despite Defeat
Use Seemingly Absurd Propositions
Arguments Ad Hominem
Defense Through Subtle Distinction
Interrupt, Break, Divert the Dispute
Generalize the Matter, Then Argue Against it
Draw Conclusions Yourself
Meet Him With a Counter-Argument as Bad as His
Petitio principii
Make Him Exaggerate His Statement
State a False Syllogism
Find One Instance to the Contrary
Turn the Tables
Anger Indicates a Weak Point
Persuade the Audience, Not the Opponent
Diversion
Appeal to Authority Rather Than Reason
This Is Beyond Me
Put His Thesis into Some Odious Category
It Applies in Theory, but Not in Practice
Don't Let Him Off the Hook
Will Is More Effective Than Insight
Bewilder Your opponent by Mere Bombast
A Faulty Proof Refutes His Whole Position
Become Personal, Insulting, Rude (argumentum ad personam)

reply to post by applesthateatpeople

Faith is a personal journey.

Can't argue with that.

darkbake
Hear me, because this is the truth.

1) You gather a lot of money, and a lot of power

2) Whenever someone does something you don't like, you deny them services, or you go out of your way to make their life hell

3) When the opposition brings up a valid point about how to make their lives and the lives of others better, you point out how they have failed, and it is their fault - for example, they can't buy groceries because they are gay - clearly their fault, even though you have shadily convinced the local grocer to deny services to gays.

4) Since they are failures, their idea obviously doesn't work.

5) In the end, you don't have to win any argument, you just have to maintain totalitarian control and make people believe that fault exists where it does not.

-----

I am not against religions - but I am against this kind of power play, in particular. It could also apply to rich people, to be honest, or other situations - and since I find Truth very important, any situation where lack of empathy comes into play to create misinformation makes me frustrated.

edit on 14amMon, 14 Apr 2014 01:17:02 -0500kbamkAmerica/Chicago by darkbake because: (no reason given)

There isn't any kind of power play. God gave us all free will. We choose, for Him or against Him. Choose for Him
because He is love, He loved us first, He created you and me. Always His way is the way. The 10 Commandments are a benefit, don't mess up your life thinking to run from Him. Instead, pray every day, speak to Him, He hears you and answers your prayers with what best benefits your soul. Major, you must, with true contrition, confess any mortal (1 John 5:16-17) sins and as soon as you commit one! Examine your conscience, your life, go through the 10 Commandments if it has been a long time since your last Confession. Prayer and confession for the life of your soul. Catholics must GO to Confession.


love,

colbe

reply to post by darkbake


I think your OPs argument proves how to win WITH religion, not against it!

any situation where lack of empathy comes into play to create misinformation makes me frustrated. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

I concur and a lack of empathy costs them their HUMANITY because they stopped being reasonable and conscientious!

This makes them monsters and it is quite legal, in a just system, to kill them on the spot!

That is how you win! YOU KILL THEM!

Like this:


Soviet Demolition of Christ the Saviour Cathedral/St. Peter and St. Paul Cathedral

reply to post by darkbake


People has a tendency to invest alot of their ego in faith.
This is why they get offended as soon as you want a explenation for their 15th century behavior.

I'll stand by the fact that if you show me the reality of "God" i will accept it.
So far I've seen no god. Just preachers making money.
But I'm open for suggestions.

When dealing with fools and idiots exercise patience and understanding .. failing that a cricket bat gets the point across quite well ..

reply to post by darkbake


If this is about religion why is it in a political forum is my first thought...my 2nd thought is everyone is entitled to believe what they want about religion...the argument doesn't exist unless there is a disagreement correct? When someone wants to debate religion with me I simply don't argue...no argument, no debate...just these simple words and the discussion is over...you are entitled to be disillusioned about whatever religion you want to be, I choose not to be.

I dont understand why people insist on debating about religion.

Just dont get it.

Neither side is ever going to win.

On one side we have billions of people who get comfort from the idea of some kind of deity proving a moral compass to life. Their biggest downfall seems to be some absurd believe that everyone else should believe what they do (and we all know the problems that causes)

The on the other side we have a bunch of people who have no religious faith (or are agnostic), which is totally fine. Yet some of them also seem to think it is acceptable to dismiss the faith of others and question the faith of others, something that is actually highly offensive to a religious individual.

When the two sides meet in a debate the whole thing turns into a big joke, on the one side we have religious individuals saying they have faith in a God. Yet on the other side we have individuals who will (in a round about way) demand proof of this God and offend the religious communities by doing so.

I dont understand why the two groups dont just shut up and let each other get on with it. The world would be a much happier place if different religious faiths would just get along (ok i know its not that simple) and atheists would accept that for some faith trumps proof.

You cannot win an argument over any person that has been taught to NOT think for themselves.

Your "Victory" has to come from your opponent agreeing that you are right.

But you don't need to win. You can be right anyway.

colbe
***snip***
The 10 Commandments are a benefit, don't mess up your life thinking to run from Him. Instead, pray every day, speak to Him, He hears you and answers your prayers with what best benefits your soul. Major, you must, with true contrition, confess any mortal (1 John 5:16-17) sins and as soon as you commit one! Examine your conscience, your life, go through the 10 Commandments if it has been a long time since your last Confession. Prayer and confession for the life of your soul. Catholics must GO to Confession.


love,

colbe

That's funny. Just the other day I was lectured on the Ten Commandments NOT being part of Christian Dogma.

The New Testament is for Christians.
Nothing there about The Ten Commandments.

Or so I was told by a believer.

Myself - I don't care much for The Old Testament.
The All knowing - all seeing - Ethereal God is mentioned in Genesis 3:2

"8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”"

How do you win a religious argument?

Don't get into one.

reply to post by darkbake


What exactly do you mean by 'religious argument'? Are you talking about arguing religion with a religious person or are you talking about arguing against religion being injected into secular matters by a religious person?