Gun Control in the UK: misconceptions, where do people get them?

V22tech
reply to post by crazyewok

 

No, but you are more likely to be assaulted in the UK. Theoreticaly i can walk up to you, and beat you to death with a metal rod and you wont be able to defend yourself. Try that here on me and you die with a very large .45 hole. Before you engage in some twisted holier than thou crusade against US gun ownership, better be sure we cant point out you crime stats compared to ours.

Four times more likely to be murdered in America... there's a crime statistic. And the difference is from your gun homicides.

What are the odds someone surprised by a criminal with a steel bar is going to be carrying their firearm or able to use it if they are?

You should also be very wary of comparing crime stats from different countries, unless dealing wity absolutes like homicides. This article below explains exactly how the UK figures look higher but aren't, as we include very minor things which don't result in injuries as assaults, and a larger proportion of offences go unreported in America.

blog.skepticallibertarian.com...

First, it should be noted that the figures Swann gives are out of date: in 2010, according to the FBI, the reported rate of violent crime in the US was 403 incidents per 100,000 people–the 466 figure comes from 2007. Second, and more importantly, the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports defines a “violent crime” as one of four specific offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault.

The British Home Office, by contrast, has a substantially different definition of violent crime. The British definition includes all “crimes against the person,” including simple assaults, all robberies, and all “sexual offenses,” as opposed to the FBI, which only counts aggravated assaults and “forcible rapes

We are actually pretty similar except for homicides. Your gun doesn't make you safer.

But of the 871,000 crimes against the person, less than half (401,000) involved any actual injury. The remainder were mostly crimes like simple assault without injury, harassment, “possession of an article with a blade or point,” and causing “public fear, alarm, or distress.” And of the 54,000 sexual offenses, only a quarter (15,000) were rapes. This makes it abundantly clear that the naive comparison of crime rates either wildly overstates the amount of violence in the UK or wildly understates it in the US.

As I have said previously, guns are just not a part of the toolkit of the average UK criminal. Less than one in a thousand burglars have a gun, the rate is about the same for muggers. The headline 'killed by mugger/burglar' is REALLY rare here.

ElectricUniverse

Kryties

Americans tend to think the same about guns in Oz too. All I know is I feel a whole lot safer in the knowledge that anyone with a rifle or shotty in Australia has had to pass multiple checks and complete safety courses and that they are required to keep them in a gun safe when not in use.

Yes, there will always be the odd person who manages to get their hands on a firearm and cause some damage but nowhere NEAR as often as in the U.S.

So let me ask you this... If you believe that more and more regulations and controls on firearms "makes the world a safer place", how come for example in the UK crimes with handguns, not just any firearm but handguns, has increased since the ban on handguns?

A lot of people, like yourself, talk about the "problems in the U.S. with firearms", but guess what?... Most crimes involving firearms in the U.S. happens in states where firearms are either banned, or heavily restricted.

No matter how many restrictions, and bans of certain firearms are put in effect CRIMINALS will ALWAYS get their hands on firearms.

When restrictions or bans on firearms occur all you are doing is disarming and restricting the law abiding citizens.

First of all, the British include replica and air guns in firearms offences, so the figures need to be seen with that in mind.

The number of real gun crimes has been falling in the past few years. So no, gun crimes aren't really rising. What gun crime we DO have in the UK is very strongly related to black gangs, and the previous rise had more to do with demographics than any legislation.

Police say the statistics support evidence that armed crime in London is falling. Recent figures show gun crime down by up to 16 per cent while the number of firearms murders in London fell to just six in 2012

And no, the criminals in the UK don't 'ALWAYS get their hands on firearms'. Maybe in America where they are common this is true, but not in the UK.

Understand, British criminals very, very rarely have guns. The gun control works here. I know Americans have a hard the grasping that, but it's the truth.

reply to post by crazyewok

Then why is it none of us actualy Brits here see this type of Britain eh?

Read the comments from actual Brits at the bottom of the linked article. They have seen it and it is in the news.


i'm not beating anyone up on this, but no one should be deluded that crime isn't a problem in merry old England.

whywhynot
i'm not beating anyone up on this, but no one should be deluded that crime isn't a problem in merry old England.

And USA has a crime problem too in many areas.

Fact is different country different factors.


A lot of the crime in the "worse" areas in Britain are normal in the poorer over crowded areas.

Its nothing to do with guns here. The issues were they are are down to :
1) Alcohol
2)Poverty
3) Overcrowding

Guns wont make the above any better.

And its not a uniform issue either as I certainly don't have a issue with crime.

And Im sure the USA is the same different issues in different states.

In fact comparing crime stat as a whole to Britain is pointless. It doesn't give any sort of clear picture. Certain states and areas are going to always have low crime due to low population/prosperity and others will have high crime due to overpopulation/poverty. And the causes will be totally different from state to state and certainly from UK to USA.

Fact is pulling some UK new article on certain crime issue is ZERO justification for saying Britain needs guns! It add
nothing to the argument. And im fed up of red necks that have no idea what goes in the UK expect from the media pulling this old stupid argument.

whywhynot
reply to post by crazyewok

 

Then why is it none of us actualy Brits here see this type of Britain eh?

Read the comments from actual Brits at the bottom of the linked article. They have seen it and it is in the news.


i'm not beating anyone up on this, but no one should be deluded that crime isn't a problem in merry old England.

Basically, unless you live in a black inner city area you are very unlikely to have much trouble in your life from crime in the UK.

Unless you are black and involved in gang crime, the odds are you'll never even see a handgun in your life. Basically, if there was no Afro Carribean population there'd be about half the knife and street crime, and nearly no gun crime in London. There are way fewer homicides in the UK. Probably the main way this works is by keeping handguns out of the hands of black teenage males. They are the majority of gun crime killers and victims here, the same as in America.

Be wary when comparing crime stats from different nations, the UK includes a lot of very minor crimes as assaults/violent that the Americans don't. The actually criminality level of white Americans and white British is very similar, homicides and assaults happen about the same frequency, guns or not. The British also have stupidly lenient sentencing for criminals, it contributes to our crime rate- you keep yours in prison longer.

Handgun ownership only seems to make a big impact on black economically motivated gun crimes, (and massacres) not so much 'personal issues ' homicides. If a person has wound you up so much you want them dead you'll find some way to kill them , gun or not.

reply to post by crazyewok

And im fed up of red necks that have no idea what goes in the UK expect from the media pulling this old stupid argument

Don't get me started.... too late.

A: They don't understand that 'firearms offences' includes airguns and replicas.

B: No matter how often or carefully you explain , they don't get that our muggers and burglars don't have guns 999/1000.

C: Out of date stats that claim UK gun crime is rising (it's actually going down)

D: Claiming UK has a higher violent crime rate an the US (it doesn't, we record crimes diferently)

E: Complete denial over higher American homicide rate (four or five times ours)

Sigh, head, brick wall, bang.

reply to post by crazyewok

I'm not making it a USA vs GB issue because that is pointless. I was just reacting to some other posts that seemed to portray GB as a crime free zone.

Also, it is well documented in GB and the US that the crime stats that we get from the authorities are BS. Its like asking the fox if the henhouse is well protected. I've read so much written by investigative reporters and by private citizens about this issue.

Englishman and Americans have been allies for a long time. I celebrate that alliance, it doesn't mean that we always agree on all things but it should mean that we always respect each other.

V22tech
reply to post by Antigod
Didnt i read in the news a while back that some rabid muslim, walked up to a soldier and cut his head off? If i remember the people around kind of just cowered in fear and didnt do anything.

It's not that anyone "cowered in fear", but rather it was the absolute shock of the whole thing that caught people off gurad and that it was over in a matter of a minute. People did actually run over to stop the two idiots and one woman covered the soldiers body with her own, despite having two guys with guns/knives bearing down on her, to stop them.

That takes far more balls than taking them on with a gun.

Besides, the whole thing took place outside a bloody barracks, with armed soldiers on the gates, so having guns there did nothing.

V22tech
Know what would have happened to that fool in Texas? He'd have been killed before he opened his mouth to that camera. You limeys preach about how "safe" your country is without guns, but your assault stats show a huge problem. I suggest reading this article:

You know what, "limey" is a derogatory term on par with calling blacks the "n word" or arabs "sand monkeys". Don't, please.

Kester
Worth noticing in the video of the event is the way one of the men looked down at marks on the ground several times and adjusted his footing to fit as if he was hypnotised and thought he was performing on a stage or a film set. It's not impossible that the entire thing was a set-up. Coincidentally the regiment the victim was part of had inspired a military protest march on parliament a few months before.

Oh please - let's not peddle nonsense. Both had a long track record of being involved with unsavoury types and neither seemed to give any hint of being set-up or hypnotised into doing what they did.

And unless there was a previous demonstration, which I doubt as the Fusiliers losing a Battalion (2RRF) was only announced in July 2013 after Lee Rigby's murder, I think you've got confused.

RRF Vet's walk on Downing Street

Oh wait so its perfectly ok for you to call us yanks, but the minute i use a term describing brits its not ok? give me a break pal. good try on playing some ridiculous race card crap. I watched the video, no one did anything to stop the fool. You anti gun nuts can say whatever you want about America and its gun culture, thing is, we dont care what some smarmy brit's opinion is. you dont have to come here, we dont want you here, we have enough liberal passive aggressive sissies as it is.

a reply to: V22tech

There's a difference - Yank is a term you guys coined yourselves and still use and isn't a pejorative term. Limey is a pejorative term, originally use in a derogatory way against sailors of the Royal Navy.

As for the "video", there are many, so which one did you watch? A lady called Ingrid Loyau-Kennett went over to administer first aid and prevented the attackers from any further mutilation - this is a matter of public record and video's exist showing it and her engaging the attackers in conversation as to why he did it. The fact you didn't see it just shows you don't actually know anything about the attack at all and are just talking crap.

As for why no one intervened immediately, like I said the whole thing was over in less than a minute with the people around stunned by what they saw - the same thing has happened in the US where bystanders are either so overwhelmed by what they have seen, or misunderstood what was happening (in the case of Lee Rigby, most thought it a road accident and reported it as such to 999). It is coined the "bystander effect" or "genovese syndrome". Don't think yourselves above everyone else.

As I also pointed out, guns wouldn't have helped. There would have been at least half a dozen guards at the gate of the barracks, only feet away from where it happened, all armed with SA80 assault rifles. Again, until it was far too late, most if not all would have thought it to be a run-of-the-mill car accident.

It's all very well sitting there crowing about how you guys would have shot the place up the moment it all went down, but we all know that to be untrue, don't we? In fact, seeing as you mentioned Texas and how nothing like that could ever happen there, what say you about George Hennard's rampage, or Charles Whitman's, or Major Malik Hasan's rampage on an army base?

In fact, out of the 25 deadliest mass shootings (the fact you have that many you have a "top 25" is shocking enough) the 3rd, 5th and 7th most deadly all occurred IN TEXAS.

So, dismount that high horse of yours, it doesn't suit you.

ok now you are just making crap up dude, i hate to break it to you pal but limey isnt racist and the fact you're offended by that word means absolutely nothing to me. Yank or Yankee is used in the same context that limey and eurotrash is.

Yeah i figured you would reference Fort Hood and every other place where a killing took place where consequently, are also places where fire arms were banned. You see, you anti gun nuts just dont get it. Most mass murderes with firearms happen in places with restrictions or out right bans. Do you get it or are you still on the Piers Morgan mind set?

The fact that your "guards" decided to do nothing speaks volumes. I can recall a dozen instances on multiple bases here, where someone tried charging the gate or otherwise commited a crime in front of the guards and were dealt with quickly and harshly.

Your statement where we would have, "shot up the place" proves you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The fact you challenge me and anyone else that carries a gun saying we wouldnt do anything and just stand there, just showes how much your govt has castrated you and how very little you know about America. Im sure you get your news from piers morgan so any opinion you have means squat.

I watched the video again, guess what? it took cops well over 20 min to show up while that idiot yammered on about his muzrat intentions. so, like i said, no one did anything and just stood there like frightened little animals, and ill guarantee that wouldnt have happened here. you can deny it all you want, i dont care, it just wouldn't have because Americans reserve the right to use lethal force to stop someone from committing a violent crime. Looks like you are the one that needs to step down off your pedestal.

originally posted by: stumason


Oh please - let's not peddle nonsense. Both had a long track record of being involved with unsavoury types and neither seemed to give any hint of being set-up or hypnotised into doing what they did.

And unless there was a previous demonstration, which I doubt as the Fusiliers losing a Battalion (2RRF) was only announced in July 2013 after Lee Rigby's murder, I think you've got confused.

RRF Vet's walk on Downing Street

I admit I know very little about all this, but this is the march I was referring to.
18th October 2012.

This is the ATS thread about the event. www.abovetopsecret.com...

Is there really no connection between this and Lee Rigby? As a representative of the activist side of the Military/Police/Activist alliance I have no wish to insult any British military personnel.

A long track record of being involved with unsavoury types indicates a lack of personal strength and susceptibility to suggestion and therefore possibly hypnotism. Investigating possibilities is not peddling nonsense, it's covering all the angles.

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
reply to post by Kryties

 

The difference is not that people act differently in Australia verses America, its that Australia has less people. When you look at crime committed with a firearm per capita, you get a much different picture.

In the United States there are over 313 million people... compare that to Australia's 22 million, and you understand why it may appear that there is more gun crime, when in essence, per capita its most likely quite comparable.

Same applies to the UK... less people... so what you need to look at is a per capita statistical chart, rather than a sum total.

Have you actually LOOKED at a 'per capita' chart, or are you just hoping I didn't? Here's one from 2013....

From: abcnews.go.com...


And here is one from 2012....

From: www.theguardian.com...


I obviously edited out all other countries, leaving just the three being discussed. To see the tables of all countries please click the links.

BOTH of these tables clearly show firearm homicides and crime in the U.S. to be WAY ABOVE that of either the U.K or Australia - even when viewed PER CAPITA as these statistics above are.

originally posted by: crazyewok

I see people carrying on as normal and ignoring them, not cowering in fear.
Police did turn up and did arrest them, now they are serving life without parole. Justice was done and no one else was hurt.

That's as I see it. The onlookers trusted the police to turn up and do the right thing.

I can see how our friends across the pond might expect their police to turn up and immediately expend half their ammo making holes in any random body within range. In such a situation a quick response would be far better.


Old guys rule.

a reply to: stumason

Looking at your profile I see you are highly productive. Can I guess this is why you have possibly forgotten that you commented on page three of this thread? www.abovetopsecret.com...
Or am I just making some stupid mistake that causes me to see a possible link between the march on parliament and the murder of Lee Rigby.

a reply to: V22tech

Terrified mate, terrified. No better illustration of that than this tragic occurrence. Go to 58 seconds. "Flew" past and confronted the gunman, giving time for the injured man to escape before being fatally shot.

originally posted by: V22tech
Your over-zealous anti-gun rant made me laugh. again, you brits are so freakin scared of guns its incredible. And again you make the misconception that "9/10 would just piss them selves." Typical brainwashed libtard response. Take your strawman argument and faulty generalizations and shove them up your red, white, and blue a$$. You know nothing Jon Snow.

Awww look at the silly American cant even give a a proper response to refute my statements.

Aww how cute.

Well don't srtain your little brain to much.


PS Im all for the US 2nd Amendment BUT IN AMERICA!