Federal Judge to Women Lawyers: "Tone Down" How You Dress

Nephalim
Its court its not #ing fashion show.

Exactly, the lawyers are dealing with the legal ends of everything under the sun, it's not a hot bod contest. Professionalism is expected, for crying out loud. If you can't argue a case or defend a client without highlighting the puppies, or using your sexuality point blank to sway someone, what kind of respect for the laws you're supposed to be highly knowledgeable of is that??

The courts I have been involved with have a set of rules published by the judge (or there are state guidelines from the 1970's, if the court is lazy).

If one lawyer shows up dressed like he's mowing the yard, it implies he doesn't take the case seriously. Which is a great ground for appeal later ("Your honors, my lawyer showed up in blue jeans, when the other guy was in a suit--you can see that my counsel didn't even care about my case..."). The measure of a judge is whether he leaves room for an appeal. Any self-respecting judge is going to close those avenues.

Likewise, I knew of a female judge who ordered all female attorneys to wear skirts---no pant suits. She even stated that the pantsuit was unflattering to certain body types, and so would be unfair to stockier women, or something like that.

The court I was familiar with, had a rack of horrid ugly neckties, and any male appearing beyond the little fence without his own necktie would be issued a God awful clown-tie by the bailiff. The message was plain: ask for a recess and come back in a decent tie.

The only time I saw a lawyer try to buck the rules of etiquette was when a lawyer from another jurisdiction showed up and didn't want to play by the local rules---a stupid mistake bordering on the tragic. No lawyer who picked a fight over the laws of fashion ever did very well in the court, as I remember. So if you're focused on serving your client, you're trying to prove the case, not prove your point.

That's how I like my women, barefoot and pregnant!
Get back in the kitchen and cook my diner.
/sarcasm

Dress like a whore, get treated like one. No one gives a # what your T&A look like. They're interested in the case(s).

I don't think they have the right to dress the way they feel comfortable or appropriate, as you put it. This is simply because what is "comfortable" or "appropriate" can be viewed by a particular person as something that is not indeed either of those things. A court of law is a professional environment, or at least that is how I would characterize it, as well as a formal environment, and lawyers, whether male or female, should dress appropriately for such an environment.

Skirts that are extremely short, showing too much skin in certain locations, etc., would not be viewed as conducive to such a formal atmosphere. A court of law is a very serious institution, as the fates of individuals are decided there, and as such all of the participants in what occurs there should have some respect and dress appropriately. I'm sure there have been extreme cases of female lawyers going over the top in their manner of dress, and in my opinion there should be rules set in place to eliminate such possibilities. There should be a dress code. Male and female suits for instance, with skirts going close to the knee or something. I mean obviously this is common sense in my opinion.

I think the bigger question is why a female lawyer would want to dress "provocatively" in a courtroom in the first place. There cannot be any good reason for it that I can think of. Maybe to manipulate the men of the jury or something, or the judge, lol. But there is a HUGE difference in being comfortable and wearing clothing not conducive to such an atmosphere. One can comfortably wear more formal attire, and that is a fact.

JiggyPotamus
I don't think they have the right to dress the way they feel comfortable or appropriate, as you put it. This is simply because what is "comfortable" or "appropriate" can be viewed by a particular person as something that is not indeed either of those things. A court of law is a professional environment, or at least that is how I would characterize it, as well as a formal environment, and lawyers, whether male or female, should dress appropriately for such an environment.

Skirts that are extremely short, showing too much skin in certain locations, etc., would not be viewed as conducive to such a formal atmosphere. A court of law is a very serious institution, as the fates of individuals are decided there, and as such all of the participants in what occurs there should have some respect and dress appropriately. I'm sure there have been extreme cases of female lawyers going over the top in their manner of dress, and in my opinion there should be rules set in place to eliminate such possibilities. There should be a dress code. Male and female suits for instance, with skirts going close to the knee or something. I mean obviously this is common sense in my opinion.

I think the bigger question is why a female lawyer would want to dress "provocatively" in a courtroom in the first place. There cannot be any good reason for it that I can think of. Maybe to manipulate the men of the jury or something, or the judge, lol. But there is a HUGE difference in being comfortable and wearing clothing not conducive to such an atmosphere. One can comfortably wear more formal attire, and that is a fact.

Do you remember the case of Philip Garrido who was sentenced for kidnapping and enslaving Jaycee Dugard? In one video of him in court he actually leans over to look at his lawyer's rear end. This is a guy who is guilty of rape and sitting there scoping out his lawyer's rear end.....and she was trying to claim he was mentally insane and didn't see what he was doing behind her back. And this lady was dressed professionally.

Defendants are always dressed in ways to elicit some subconscious idea, so even neckties are questionable, because it's all about presentation.

I can see the judges point. Dress professionally for whatever your profession is. The building I work in has a lot of law firms. Some of the female lawyers I see literally dress like snookie. I wonder what thats all about. How that is even tolerated. Although I don't mind looking at it. My respect for them sorta plummets. Makes me wonder about their bringing, their intelligence, and how they really got to where they are in life.

Conversely there are several women in my building that do get it right. Are intelligent, attractive and manage to dress with a degree of self respect. They still look pretty attractive but they also look professional. And they re a whole lot more interesting to talk to. The other group not so much. they are too obsessed with their texting, talking to their girlfriends about some non work related immature s@($*t, acting like they are still adolescents, or rifling through their louis vuitton, or bulgari purse in a obvious way as if to attract the attention of the other girls in the elevator that they have a louis vuitton or whatever. It just makes them look like they aren't getting it, we all just roll our eyes or snicker once they walk out and look at each other going "ok..."

reply to post by rickynews


It's very hard to hide big hips or breasts or an attractive face and so on. They can wear loose clothes and/or appropriately colored and patterned, but ultimately, my eyes can discern what's underneath and shall not be misled.

Are they trying to overcontrol their own impulses? They have so little control? That's scary. They're implying they're animals underneath the surface.

So I've casually noticed attractive or desirable women, who hasn't? I don't go ape on them. It's a nanosecond glance and then I'm on to other things. Some guys make comments and are rude and deserve negative consequences, but I don't agree with sending a guy to prison just because he whistles at a women. There're women who cannot hide what they have and there're men who cannot keep the animal inside them on a leash. If a man crosses the line, like touching her or consistently whistling, I'd agree that's sexual harassment. I just don't agree that one or two whistles means sexual harassment. Please note I've never in my life done that, so don't judge me. I just think we need to be realistic about this.

Either way, I'd agree with them if it's a simple matter of lawyer women coming to work dressed in sexually revealing or enhancing clothing. BUT who determines what's "sexually revealing or enhancing"? Allah? That's the problem. They need to ensure their ruling reflects the views of common americans.

We shouldn't become too rigid. If everyone wears the same clothing then we're just robots. I understand the need to construct a professional environment, but we also need to be able to control our internal impulses. If you can't work because a women is dressed revealingly, that could be a problem if you're a police officer or a bouncer at a night club. Bottom line, we need to be able to cope with the animal. I'm certainly not saying it's wrong to have a dress code at a workplace, at all.

There was a time when common sense and reasonable applied to things like this.

I miss those days.

The 14th Amendment, imo, gives the judge not only the right, but the duty, to exact dress codes if he/she feels current modes are impinging on due process within the courtroom.

14th Amendment

Beyond that, there are complaint processes but those will probably not entertain harmless, strictly eccentric or quirky behaviors as long as the judge is following the law.

reply to post by rickynews


Yet again because a male has trouble controlling his eyes thoughts morals and (potentially) his libido, women are expected to alter themselves to conform to please and suit them. If you cant do your job because some pretty in a skirt is standing in front of you doing hers, then the problem isn't with her, its with you.

This is how sharia laws come about..incrementally....little snip off women's inherent liberty here, little blame the victim there, little more social 'advice' on what men think is 'acceptableness' over here and voila suddenly women are stuck in whatever men think is ok for them, unable or not permitted to think for themselves and end up kept like pets behind the bedroom and kitchen doors, brood mares for an unholy system of social and mental control...oh..wait.

Imo if she isn't in hot pants or a string bikini then its not anyone's business what a female lawyer wears..wearing a fine suit does not mean you respect the court or the law..in fact, those in fine suits are usually the last to do so.


Worse, children are starving to death out there by the minute, literally, by the minute, for want of 2 bucks, plumpy and some focused leadership and real social priorities...and this type of bs is the subject people focus on? d*ckheads...

Rosha

Rosha
reply to post by rickynews

 

Yet again because a male has trouble controlling his eyes thoughts morals and (potentially) his libido, women are expected to alter themselves to conform to please and suit them. If you cant do your job because some pretty in a skirt is standing in front of you doing hers, then the problem isn't with her, its with you.

This is how sharia laws come about..incrementally....little snip off women's inherent liberty here, little blame the victim there, little more social 'advice' on what men think is 'acceptableness' over here and voila suddenly women are stuck in whatever men think is ok for them, unable or not permitted to think for themselves and end up kept like pets behind the bedroom and kitchen doors, brood mares for an unholy system of social and mental control...oh..wait.

Imo if she isn't in hot pants or a string bikini then its not anyone's business what a female lawyer wears..wearing a fine suit does not mean you respect the court or the law..in fact, those in fine suits are usually the last to do so.


Worse, children are starving to death out there by the minute, literally, by the minute, for want of 2 bucks, plumpy and some focused leadership and real social priorities...and this type of bs is the subject people focus on? d*ckheads...

Rosha

edit on 13-4-2014 by Rosha because: gremlins

Then she needs to practice another profession. There's an older profession than lawyers. But a courtroom is not a strip club. Dress for the profession.

And Sharia has been in force longer than the United States has been a country, imagine that.

reply to post by Rosha


I'm a woman and I think a lot of women dress like whores. Rape is no mystery sometimes.

Restricted
reply to post by Rosha

 

I'm a woman and I think a lot of women dress like whores. Rape is no mystery sometimes.

Ah so what a woman wears makes rape ok? Sure..good luck with that view. Shariah much? Same justification being used to control women by the Taliban right now. Whats next? Should she be put in prison for being raped too? No? Why not?

Women in burka get raped as well, women in 'nice' clothes get raped as well and unlike you, I hold that it is the 'claimant of the right to rape' another that is ALWAYS responsible for that choice THEY make to rape, not their victim, even if their victim is stark naked.

You are welcome to your view...and I hope it never has to be tested in your life.

What other people choose to wear though, is still simply none of your business.

Ro

WarminIndy

Then she needs to practice another profession. There's an older profession than lawyers. But a courtroom is not a strip club. Dress for the profession.

And Sharia has been in force longer than the United States has been a country, imagine that.

Ah so we'll just ignore the grave corruption and wider social and political whoredoms of men in suits..to further contain and control women into being an 'acceptable' viewing candy' resource for men.

right..gotcha.


Ro

Rosha

WarminIndy

Then she needs to practice another profession. There's an older profession than lawyers. But a courtroom is not a strip club. Dress for the profession.

And Sharia has been in force longer than the United States has been a country, imagine that.

Ah so we'll just ignore the grave corruption and wider social and political whoredoms of men in suits..to further contain and control women into being an 'acceptable' viewing candy' resource for men.

right..gotcha.


Ro

Maybe the Judge was trying to avoid just that in his courtroom ?

Rosha

Restricted
reply to post by Rosha

 

I'm a woman and I think a lot of women dress like whores. Rape is no mystery sometimes.

Ah so what a woman wears makes rape ok? Sure..good luck with that view. Shariah much? Same justification being used to control women by the Taliban right now. Whats next? Should she be put in prison for being raped too? No? Why not?

Women in burka get raped as well, women in 'nice' clothes get raped as well and unlike you, I hold that it is the 'claimant of the right to rape' another that is ALWAYS responsible for that choice THEY make to rape, not their victim, even if their victim is stark naked.

You are welcome to your view...and I hope it never has to be tested in your life.

What other people choose to wear though, is still simply none of your business.

Ro

edit on 13-4-2014 by Rosha because: typo gremlins

Don't you think it is kind of annoying to have to see someone else's stuff that you don't want to see in the first place?

And here we go...People Of Walmart

Now tell me again how it's not a problem, and this is just a more appropriate picture. And then tell me, have you ever made fun of these people?

WarminIndy

Don't you think it is kind of annoying to have to see someone else's stuff that you don't want to see in the first place?

And here we go...People Of Walmart

Now tell me again how it's not a problem, and this is just a more appropriate picture. And then tell me, have you ever made fun of these people?

This/walmart is not a court and not the woman involved in the OP, who, based on the story I saw referring to it, was wearing a neat pant suit jacket and skirt. The judge just didn't like it hugged her figure as well as it did and her bra was so supportive and oh she wore heels. Cant have that now.

Again, as relates to walmart folks, if I dont like I dont look or buy some eye bleach if I have seen what I wish Id rather not and I do advocate taking personal responsibility over removing peoples freedoms for my personal comforts.

We don't exist in a vacuum of sterile proportions. Outside of what is covered by law, there is no such thing as a 'right' not to be offended in life, offense happens and ppl need to grow up learn to cope with it and let go of pettiness and sentimentalism of this low degree. What is it to you anyway what they wear? You're not wearing it!

I rather not have to see corrupt judges and lawyers making a mockery of the systems in place to protect civilians either..its disgusting abuse of position and power and the only difference between that and this is that one issue IS and one is NOT my business.

Ro

rickynews

Maybe the Judge was trying to avoid just that in his courtroom ?

Maybe the judge was just uncomfortable with his own attraction and desire too. There is no way to tell. He chose to place a restriction based on his own interpretation of what he personally felt acceptable....I didn't know judges had this power to choose for everyone what is acceptable and if the woman in question was so under dressed as to not be acceptable to the generic standard of court room attire, then she should not have been permitted entry in the first place not undermined in the court room.


I don't doubt many female lawyers use every tool and asset they have to achieve wins over losses. I dont have an opinion on whether or not this type of exercise of power is any better or worse than men colluding in back rooms with contacts made in steam-rooms. I only know the day you start to legislate or hint at legislating what will be 'acceptable; for women to wear, or will or wont wear anywhere..is the day you being to practice in spirit, the tenets of shariah law.

Ro

Rosha
We don't exist in a vacuum of sterile proportions. Outside of what is covered by law, there is no such thing as a 'right' not to be offended in life, offense happens and ppl need to grow up learn to cope with it and let go of pettiness and sentimentalism of this low degree. What is it to you anyway what they wear? You're not wearing it!

Actually, it does matter what people wear.

You should dress in Court in a conservative manner.

It's not a male or female issue. Like I said if a man wore his pants too low and it showed his crack or a too tight shirt with his beer belly hanging out - it wouldn't be appropriate.

The "If you don't let me dress they way I want - it's discrimination" is a silly excuse. It's the same dress code for men and women. Only you would see very few men exposing their chests and legs.

And as why it should matter - it's because inappropriate dress DOES create a distraction. Courts deal with matters of life and death - the focus should be in the proceedings.