A mass lack of understanding

The western world, especially the U.S is in dissonance. The idea that spirituality and science isn't the same. Take away all the nouns of everything you know and what do you know, you understand that you're just seperate atoms from the clothes you're wearing, but do you understand that the space between the atoms in your clothes is the same space in the atoms in you. Or a person a million miles away. You don't understand the one shared space that all atoms form, the soul, you sit there thinking your soul is in your thoughts but it isn't, it's what we share together, our minds just live inside it.

reply to post by ScottProphhit


There is no scientific model for spirituality, Because they are not compatable.

First off there is no consensus for what spirituality is, because there is nothing there to study. There is only speculation and opinion. Just like in your OP.

Most folks who do try to describe spirituality, say that it is a nonphysical thing. In which case science will not have anything to say about it as it will be beyond the reach of observation. Which excludes science all together. Therefore no properties can be studied and tested. Which is what you could expect if something doesnt exist.

Now lets say that a force can be detected which explains telepathy, or telekinesis, or ghosts, or any other "supernatural" event out there. Well if we can measure it then it is a physical thing. Which totally excludes spirituality and puts these things solely in the realm of science.

In the past, before we understood physical science, people thought everything was governed by "supernatural" forces. The weather, the crops, births, deaths, sickness, government, the sun, moon, and stars, love, fermentation, pretty much everything we now understand as science. As we develope better technologies, these things become more mundane and the "supernatural" becomes the "natural" model for all physical existence. No longer are the gods angry when it storms. Now we understand weather and atmospheric pressure. Gods and spirits aren't angry when you get sick. We now know about germs and viruses. How many "supernatural" events have been explained away and pulled into the realm of the explained. Science has been stripping gods of their duties for 1000's of years. However the religious and belivers in the "supernatural" just keep pushing the goal post back further and further into the void.

reply to post by Woodcarver


with your post you just proved what he said in the opening post: science and spirituality are the same.

to the OP: excellent opening post I must say, short but true.

ScottProphhit
The western world, especially the U.S is in dissonance. The idea that spirituality and science isn't the same. Take away all the nouns of everything you know and what do you know, you understand that you're just seperate atoms from the clothes you're wearing, but do you understand that the space between the atoms in your clothes is the same space in the atoms in you. Or a person a million miles away. You don't understand the one shared space that all atoms form, the soul, you sit there thinking your soul is in your thoughts but it isn't, it's what we share together, our minds just live inside it.

edit on th2014-04-05T08:08:52-05:0020143030-05:00Sat, 05 Apr 2014 08:08:52 -05002014p08 by ScottProphhit because: (no reason given)

it is what "the west" has been learning from "the east" for hundreds if not thousands of years.

and "the west" still have much to learn.

not to say that "the east" doesn't have anything to learn from "the west"; they still have much to learn from "the west", but not about spirituality.

demus
reply to post by Woodcarver

 

with your post you just proved what he said in the opening post: science and spirituality are the same.

How?

reply to post by Woodcarver

Most folks who do try to describe spirituality, say that it is a nonphysical thing.

Thats not what they mean. Of course its a "physical thing".

In which case science will not have anything to say about it as it will be beyond the reach of observation. Which excludes science all together. Therefore no properties can be studied and tested. Which is what you could expect if something doesn't exist.

If all scientific study began that way we'd still be in the dark ages.

Somebody turn on the light.

reply to post by intrptr


What physical properties of spirituality do you propose can be scientifically measured and how?

GetHyped

demus
reply to post by Woodcarver

 

with your post you just proved what he said in the opening post: science and spirituality are the same.

How?

you said:

In the past, before we understood physical science, people thought everything was governed by "supernatural" forces. The weather, the crops, births, deaths, sickness, government, the sun, moon, and stars, love, fermentation, pretty much everything we now understand as science. As we develope better technologies, these things become more mundane and the "supernatural" becomes the "natural" model for all physical existence.

it means that everything that falls under "spirituality" today will probably be explained in the future by scientific means.
"spirituality" will be explained through science thus spirituality = science.

demus
you said:

You have me confused with another poster.

it means that everything that falls under "spirituality" today will probably be explained in the future by scientific means.
"spirituality" will be explained through science thus spirituality = science.

Your premise, "it means that everything that falls under "spirituality" today will probably be explained in the future by scientific means", is unfounded. I see absolutely no reason why this will be the case considering there is no evidence to support this claim (or spiritual claims in general). Your conclusion, "thus spirituality = science" has no logical connection to your premise. I'm afraid I still fail to see how woodcarver's post "proved [that] science and spirituality are the same".

reply to post by GetHyped


if this is not spirituality explained through science I don't know what is then.
it's just a first thing I could find, I'm sure there are many other examples as well.

also it is worth to note that many great scientists and inventors were very much into spirituality.

Mindfulness meditation produces personal experiences that are not readily interpretable by scientists who want to study its psychiatric benefits in the brain. Researchers have now been able to integrate mindfulness experience with hard neuroscience data to advance more rigorous study.

Integrating meditation with science


one more: Prayer May Reshape Your Brain ... And Your Reality

Newberg says he can't prove that McDermott or anyone else is communing with God, but he can look for circumstantial evidence. "What we need to do is study those moments where people feel that they're getting beyond their brain, and understanding what's happening in the brain from a scientific perspective, what's happening in the brain from their spiritual perspective," he says. Then he'll compare the mystical feelings with the brain physiology.

demus
irituality explained through science I don't know what is then.
it's just a first thing I could find, I'm sure there are many other examples as well.

Science has known of the physiological effects of meditation, just like it has known of the physiological effects of other relaxation exercises. All that article is discussing is studying these physiological effects. It has nothing to do with spiritual claims. You don't need to wrap relaxation exercises in spiritual beliefs to enjoy the benefits of them, any more than getting drunk on Communion wine is proof that the Christian god is real.

also it is worth to note that many great scientists and inventors were very much into spirituality.

And any intellectually honest scientist will tell you that their personal beliefs in spirituality are by just that, personal beliefs. There's also a lot of scientists who hold no spiritual beliefs. A scientist's unscientific beliefs are not given credibility because of who holds them. This is nothing more than an appeal to authority fallacy.

demus

one more: Prayer May Reshape Your Brain ... And Your Reality

Newberg says he can't prove that McDermott or anyone else is communing with God, but he can look for circumstantial evidence. "What we need to do is study those moments where people feel that they're getting beyond their brain, and understanding what's happening in the brain from a scientific perspective, what's happening in the brain from their spiritual perspective," he says. Then he'll compare the mystical feelings with the brain physiology.

edit on 5-4-2014 by demus because: evoking the powers

Studying the physiological effects of religious ritual does not equate to proof of the religious claims, any more than the physiological effects of entering a trance state when performing a rain dance is proof that a rain god exists.

reply to post by GetHyped


what do you mean by "spiritual claims"?

would claim that "talking to god, meditation, prayer" or other SPIRITUAL practices produce effects in one's life be "spiritual claim"?

before science could not explain it: today they can.

better you read what scientists have to say about it, I don't want to go rampant with quotes, you can find it yourself.

actually; I think we are one the same page here, only you've been reading every second word.

GetHyped

demus

one more: Prayer May Reshape Your Brain ... And Your Reality

Newberg says he can't prove that McDermott or anyone else is communing with God, but he can look for circumstantial evidence. "What we need to do is study those moments where people feel that they're getting beyond their brain, and understanding what's happening in the brain from a scientific perspective, what's happening in the brain from their spiritual perspective," he says. Then he'll compare the mystical feelings with the brain physiology.

edit on 5-4-2014 by demus because: evoking the powers

Studying the physiological effects of religious ritual does not equate to proof of the religious claims, any more than the physiological effects of entering a trance state when performing a rain dance is proof that a rain god exists.

would you agree if I say that every single one of "spiritual, religious claim" will be explained eventually through science?

reply to post by demus


Meditation is not proof of the spiritual. That's beyond silly to even make such a claim. A lot of people sing in church. We understand the biology of how we sing and we understand the physics of how it sounds. Does that mean that singing is proof of the Christian god? Of course not. Your arguments are flimsy and illogical.

would you agree if I say that every single one of "spiritual, religious claim" will be explained eventually through science?

I've already stated I do not accept this premise. And why would I?

What physical properties of spirituality do you propose can be scientifically measured and how?

my 2 cents...people cannot handle the idea that when you die, that's it, nothing else, no more of anything. the brain functions by the interactions of small electrical signals. when you die, these signals cease to function (turn off), much like a light switch on your wall.....what humans have been told that involve the "afterlife", the "soul", "heaven and hell", "Gods and/or God", etc...were constructs to provide humans with simple instructions for relationships, that would benefit themselves and stop the savagery of pre-Neolithic life. over the course of thousands of generations, spiritual belief, (the belief of a higher plane of existence) has allowed the human animal to turn to a more intellectual and progressive state of societal development, that is less dependent on brute violence for survival.

GetHyped
reply to post by demus

 

Meditation is not proof of the spiritual. That's beyond silly to even make such a claim. A lot of people sing in church. We understand the biology of how we sing and we understand the physics of how it sounds. Does that mean that singing is proof of the Christian god? Of course not. Your arguments are flimsy and illogical.

What physical properties of spirituality do you propose can be scientifically measured and how?

religion and/or spirituality is not so superficial like you think.

as for your question:

What physical properties of spirituality do you propose can be scientifically measured and how?

I propose those that were measured in a scientific experiments that I linked to.
Google "neuroscience"...

reply to post by demus


You didn't answer my question. And no, neuroscience has absolutely nothing to do with spirituality, I don't know why you would even mention it. You haven't even offered up any definitions or specific details of the particular brand of spirituality you subscribe to.

GetHyped
reply to post by demus

 

You didn't answer my question. And no, neuroscience has absolutely nothing to do with spirituality, I don't know why you would even mention it. You haven't even offered up any definitions or specific details of the particular brand of spirituality you subscribe to.

edit on 5-4-2014 by GetHyped because: (no reason given)

neuroscience has everything to do with spirituality.

I didn't know I was obliged to provide definitions or specific details of the "particular brand" of spirituality "I subscribe to."

demus
neuroscience has everything to do with spirituality.

How?

I didn't know I was obliged to provide definitions or specific details of the "particular brand" of spirituality "I subscribe to."

Because you are the one making concrete claims about spirituality so it would be helpful to know exactly what definition you are working from.