Abortion is a gift from God

reply to post by SaturnFX


Not all people believe that unbaptized babies go to heaven. You're better off learning theological arguments before you start arguing against them.

Science will one day be the main reason abortion will eventually become unacceptable.

reply to post by kaylaluv

Congrats on your choice to choose life!

Stormdancer777

SaturnFX

beezzer
What's your question?

please be blunt.

I despise obtuseness.

Are babies sent to hell? yes or no
Is heaven a better place than earth? yes or no

The third question of course then is...so, whats the issue?

no I dont believe babies go to hell, I don't believe in hell, it is a misinterpretation.

There will be a new heaven and a new earth, earth will once again become paradise, no more death, disease, tears, wars, etc.

What is the issue?

althought I think you made a very good point philosophically regarding atheist should value a one and ony chance at life therefore be more anti abortion.

What's the issue?
A chance?

a chance to witnessing the universes, experience life, babies are known to dream and experience pain in the womb.

a chance to experience love, maybe it is something so simple.

I was thinking just the other day, I know some prochoice vegans, they don't eat eggs.

On a person to person level, that I bet would make the best argument for continuing the pregnancy..at least to the intellectuals.
Thanks for taking the query seriously

Stormdancer777
Science will one day be the main reason abortion will eventually become unacceptable.

Science will one day be the main reason abortion will be unnecessary also.

cetaphobic
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Not all people believe that unbaptized babies go to heaven. You're better off learning theological arguments before you start arguing against them.

I know the theology. yes..the unbaptized are considered, by some, to be hell fodder.

And if that is how the universe is designed, then its no loss really, because then the deity become invalid...it is a very imperfect system, which means the creator is imperfect, and therefore cannot be the represented deity proclaimed.

(there is a reason I went from being a religious schoolkid to suddenly dropping religion..and it wasn't because of heavy metal)

SaturnFX

Stormdancer777
Science will one day be the main reason abortion will eventually become unacceptable.

Science will one day be the main reason abortion will be unnecessary also.

Could be today if it weren't stopped by pro-life religious zealots and whoever the people are who don't want children educated about sex.

Nothing makes me groan louder than a thread about a religious group being offended.

Abortion is an atrocity. If you can't clearly state that, then the premise of this thread is null. It is wholly predicated on the viewpoint that abortion is an atrocity.

Stormdancer777
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Is there a place we wait for life, are we aware in that place before conception?

Is the breath of life, the spirit, are we that living breathing spirit?

WHo am I to deny another a chance to breath, if in the grave there is nothing,

I'm not judging or condemning anyone, but I think four billion deaths is beyond comprehension.

I remember once hearing (reading) about a theological stance of how we as souls choose where to incarnate...according to that. they go in after something along the lines of 40 days or so (heard this hypothesis a very long time ago, so don't quote me on the timeframe...just many weeks after conception was the choosing time). Same thing was also, if it is miscarried, they simply chose another.
I don't think that if there is an immortal soul, it can be stopped from experiencing the world...you personally may lose the chance at experiencing that souls company in this life however, and that costs you a bit of potential joy (and sorrow.its life, nobody is perfect)

HAGELIN: March for Life, and pro-life movement, now led by young adults

Equal protection under the law for pre-born human beings is headed our way — and from the work of a surprising demographic: adults younger than 30.

Read more: www.washingtontimes.com...



a third of my generation was killed by abortion

“The undeniable fact is that nearly a third of my generation was killed by abortion. We are missing brothers, sisters, cousins, friends, husbands and wives. But [we’re] determined to set it right. We’ve seen the ultrasounds of our siblings, Googled ‘abortion’ and seen the bloody images, and sat with a friend as she cried about her abortion,” she says. “This youth generation is the most pro-life generation of young people since 1973.

It belongs to this generation of survivors

“This isn’t our grandmother’s pro-life movement anymore: It belongs to this generation of survivors — to those of us who could have been legally aborted when we were in our mothers’ wombs and survived, to those of us who are now being targeted by Planned Parenthood, who has set up shop next to our schools and universities, with 79 percent being within five miles of a college campus.”

Radical liberals — including elected officials like New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo — like to portray pro-lifers as “extreme” and out of touch, proponents of backward thinking and intolerance. President Obama and former Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton send the same message, as well as many in the “establishment” of the Republican Party

The fact of the matter is these old dinosaurs are the ones out of touch, science know a lot more than it did about this issue when R v W was passed.

The General Social Survey from 1972 to 2006 shows how every generation since the legalization of abortion has become more and more pro-life.

They find their bond in the fact that they escaped becoming victims of abortion. And they will not be stopped until every child and every mother is protected

Maybe they are the reincarnated babies.

When the Women Were Drummers

Layne Redmond
A Quote by layne

It is often said that the first sound we hear in the womb is our mother's heartbeat. Actually, the first sound to vibrate our newly developed hearing apparatus is the pulse of our mother's blood through her veins and arteries. We vibrate to that primordial rhythm even before we have ears to hear. Before we were conceived, we existed in part as an egg in our mother's ovary. All the eggs a woman will ever carry form in her ovaries while she is a four-month-old fetus in the womb of her mother. This means our cellular life as an egg begins in the womb of our grandmother. Each of us spent five months in our grandmother's womb and she in turn formed within the womb of her grandmother. We vibrate to the rhythms of our mother's blood before she herself is born. And this pulse is the thread of blood that runs all the way back through the grandmothers to the first mother. We all share the blood of the first mother - we are truly children of one blood.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


When the pro-killing unborn baby crowd has to use God as a proponent for their agenda, maybe they are losing support.

Faye Wattleton, the longest reigning president of the largest abortion provider in the United States—Planned Parenthood—argued as far back as 1997 that everyone already knows that abortion kills. She proclaims the following in an interview with Ms. Magazine:

I think we have deluded ourselves into believing that people don't know that abortion is killing. So any pretense that abortion is not killing is a signal of our ambivalence, a signal that we cannot say yes, it kills a fetus.1

On the other side of the pond, Ann Furedi, the chief executive of the largest independent abortion provider in the UK, said this in a 2008 debate:

We can accept that the embryo is a living thing in the fact that it has a beating heart, that it has its own genetic system within it. It’s clearly human in the sense that it’s not a gerbil, and we can recognize that it is human life.2


Bernard Nathanson co-founded one of the most influential abortion advocacy groups in the world (NARAL) and once served as medical director for the largest abortion clinic in America. In 1974, he wrote an article for the New England Journal of Medicine in which he states, "There is no longer serious doubt in my mind that human life exists within the womb from the very onset of pregnancy..."6 Some years later, he would reiterate:

There is simply no doubt that even the early embryo is a human being. All its genetic coding and all its features are indisputably human. As to being, there is no doubt that it exists, is alive, is self-directed, and is not the the same being as the mother–and is therefore a unified whole.7

The problem is, Roe vs. Wade,

The problem is, Roe vs. Wade, the landmark 1973 verdict which legalized abortion in the U.S. is actually built on the claim that there's no way to say for certain whether or not abortion kills because no one can say for certain when life begins. Justice Harry Blackmun, who authored the majority opinion wrote:

The judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to... resolve the difficult question of when life begins... since those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus.8

those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus

www.abort73.com...

Dr. Nathanson would eventually abandon his support for elective abortion and note that "the basics [of prenatal development] were well-known to human embryology at the time the U.S. Supreme Court issued its 1973 rulings, even though the rulings made no use of them."9 In biological terms, life's beginning is a settled fact. Individual human life begins at fertilization, and there are all sorts of authoritative, public resources to prove this

But even I make exceptions for rape babies and serious life risking health issues.

reply to post by crazyewok


Tell that to the amazing people that have become adults knowing their mother was raped.

Being a child conceived from the such an ugly act of disrespect doesn't qualify for termination.

Yes, extreme life and death dangers to unborn child and or mother is one thing. Purposely ending life because you want to or think you have to, well that's heartless.

Scientists Speak before the Senate: Human Life Begins at Conception
Posted on September 10, 2012

clinicquotes.com...

In 1981 (April 23-24) a Senate Judiciary Subcommittee held hearings on the very question before us here: When does human life begin? Appearing to speak on behalf of the scientific community was a group of internationally-known geneticists and biologists who had the same story to tell, namely, that human life begins at conception – and they told their story with a complete absence of opposing testimony. (Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, Report, 97th Congress, 1st Session, 1981):

*** Dr. Micheline M. Mathews-Roth, Harvard medical School, gave confirming testimony, supported by references from over 20 embryology and other medical textbooks that human life began at conception.

“It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive…It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception.”

***”Father of Modern Genetics” Dr. Jerome Lejeune told the lawmakers:

“To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion…it is plain experimental evidence. Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception.”

*** Dr. McCarthy de Mere, medical doctor and law professor, University of Tennessee, testified:

“The exact moment of the beginning of personhood and of the human body is at the moment of conception.”

*** Dr. Alfred Bongiovanni, Professor of Pediatrics and Obstetrics, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, concluded,

“I am no more prepared to say that these early stages represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty … is not a human being….I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception.”

***Dr. Richard V. Jaynes:

“To say that the beginning of human life cannot be determined scientifically is utterly ridiculous.”

***Dr. Landrum Shettles, sometimes called the “Father of In Vitro Fertilization” notes

“Conception confers life and makes that life one of a kind.”

And on the Supreme Court ruling Roe v. Wade,

“To deny a truth [about when life begins] should not be made a basis for legalizing abortion.”

*** Professor Eugene Diamond:

“…either the justices were fed a backwoods biology or they were pretending ignorance about a scientific certainty.”

***Gordon, Hymie, M.D., F.R.C.P., Chairman of Medical Genetics, Mayo Clinic, Rochester:

“By all criteria of modern molecular biology,life is present from the moment of conception…Science has a very simple conception of man; as soon as he has been conceived, a man is a man.”

** C. Christopher Hook, M.D. Oncologist, Mayo Clinic, Director of Ethics Education, Mayo Graduate School of Medicine:

“When fertilization is complete, a unique genetic human entity exists.”

The official Senate report reached this conclusion:

“Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being – a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings.”

reply to post by SaturnFX


Imperfect by our definition is not necessarily objectively imperfect.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


I am not using religion only responding to a pro abortionist who started the religious debate,

reply to post by Stormdancer777


And about half of us came from a fertilized egg that never implanted in our mother's uterus, so we were spontaneously aborted. God can be very pro-death sometimes, because that doesn't even involve a choice, does it?

reply to post by Stormdancer777


The premise of this thread was that we should not discuss the merits of abortion, but rather the merits of utilizing God as a tool for agenda.

I argue that in this case, you cannot really separate the two. As abortion is a morality issue, which resides firmly in the realm of religion for the most part.

TiedDestructor
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Exactly. If death were a gift from God then why is suicide a sin. After all there is days when I could just check out of this bi#.

If it is a sin or not depends on the situation. Some people are told by god they have a choice if they wanna leave or stay. It is not as simplified as some people make it out. If you are supposed to stay you will get sent back even if you suicide. But I do get wanting to go there and sometimes the longing to be there can be very strong. Playing around in the chi. .