Historians claim Holy Grail is in church in Leon, northern Spain.

Hello all, I don't usually come into this forum, but I thought this might be interesting all the same.

Enjoy all.

www.news.com.au...

SPANISH historians say they have discovered what Monty Python could not — the Holy Grail, the legendary cup Jesus supposedly drank from at the Last Supper.
The Spaniards — Margarita Torres and José Ortega del Río — believe the 2000-year-old vessel is in a church in León in northern Spain, New York Post reported .
The pair spent three years studying the history of the chalice and last week published a book, “The Kings of the Grail,” making their case.
The onyx chalice, they explained, was concealed within another antique vessel known as the Chalice of Doña Urruca, which is located in León’s basilica of Saint Isidore.
The historians said it has been there since the 11th century.
“This is a very important discovery because it helps solve a big puzzle,” Torres told The Irish Times. “We believe this could be start of a wonderful stage of research.”
She said the duo had been researching the history of some Islamic remains in the Saint Isidore basilica. But their discovery of two medieval Egyptian documents that mentioned the chalice of Christ caused them to change direction, the paper reported.
Those parchments told a tale of how Muslims took the sacred cup from the Christian community in Jerusalem to Cairo.
It was then given to an emir on Spain’s Mediterranean coast in return for help he gave to Egyptians who were suffering a famine.
The historians’ research has been backed up by scientific dating, which estimates that the cup in question was made between 200BC and 100AD.
The scientists admit the first 400 years of the cup’s history remain a mystery and they can’t prove the chalice ever actually touched Christ’s lips.
But they insist there is no doubt that this is the cup that the early Christians revered as the chalice used at the Last Supper.
“The only chalice that could be considered the chalice of Christ is that which made the journey to Cairo and then from Cairo to León — and that is this chalice,” said Torres, who teaches medieval history at the University of León.
Countless scientists and historians have pursued the Holy Grail, an effort chronicled in Arthurian legend, made into pulp adventure with Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade and satirised by the British Comedy troupe Monty Python in 1975’s Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

reply to post by CaptainBeno


Hang on... I saw a guy drink out of that cup and turn to dust...

Indiana jones part 3...

true story

It's amazing what lengths some people will go to when the tourist industry isn't what it used to be.Also the holy grail is just a metaphor for certain religious beliefs and not an actual drinking vessel as we see here.

reply to post by CaptainBeno


Borrowing from Indiana Jones here...does that really look like the sort of cup a Middle Eastern carpenter would make or use? Particularly one as poor and selfless as Jesus? Far too extravagant. And personally, I'm not quite convinced that the grail is not actually a Sang real...a child of royal blood.

Hahaha, Akragon thought of the same movie. Great minds, my friend...

I'd guess that this is not the holy grail. I bet the holy grail is made out of polished stone and may even look like a mug.

Akragon
reply to post by CaptainBeno

 

Hang on... I saw a guy drink out of that cup and turn to dust...

Different cup. They're digging in the wrong place!

reply to post by CaptainBeno

They are exaggerating their achievement.
It's very plausible that they can "prove", or at least show the probability, that this cup was celebrated as the Last Supper cup by the church in Cairo.
That is not at all the same thing as showing that it really was the Last Supper cup, which is very implausible indeed. The real cup would have been much more humble.

I'm like everyone who saw the third Indiana Jones and realize that the cup would not be all ornate like that. I call shenanigans on that #.

The 'Holy Grail' has always made me smile simply because it could simply have been a cup used in the house where the Last Supper was held and not any particular drinking cup, or indeed a cup used regularly by Christ and the Disciples.

It seems highly unlikely that Christ and his Disciples travelled with their crockery in a sack and there is no record of them owning a house at which they 'lived'. It just seems yet another get-rich scheme by the Papists, that has captured the more whimsical's imagination.

The cup in the photograph, whether a cup within a cup, looks rather grand and opens up the argument that perhaps Christ was being thought of as a King of the Jews.

Funny I went to the library for the first time in a long time Saturday and got a book (fiction) about a search for the Holy Grail and then see this story today.

They chose .... poorly.

reply to post by CaptainBeno


Only the penitent man shall pass!

I guess northern Spain needs a tourism boost...again

hirr.hartsem.edu...

The Middle Ages are marked by journeys and pilgrimages to holy places. This is the period in which "religious tourism" became popular with its interdependent means of transport, accommodation for pilgrims, and stops along the route at which peddlers would sell "relics." The most common destinations of the period were Santiago de Compostela, Czestochowa, and Rome.

CaptainBeno
Hello all, I don't usually come into this forum, but I thought this might be interesting all the same.

Enjoy all.

www.news.com.au...

SPANISH historians say they have discovered what Monty Python could not — the Holy Grail, the legendary cup Jesus supposedly drank from at the Last Supper.
The Spaniards — Margarita Torres and José Ortega del Río — believe the 2000-year-old vessel is in a church in León in northern Spain, New York Post reported .
The pair spent three years studying the history of the chalice and last week published a book, “The Kings of the Grail,” making their case.
The onyx chalice, they explained, was concealed within another antique vessel known as the Chalice of Doña Urruca, which is located in León’s basilica of Saint Isidore.
The historians said it has been there since the 11th century.
“This is a very important discovery because it helps solve a big puzzle,” Torres told The Irish Times. “We believe this could be start of a wonderful stage of research.”
She said the duo had been researching the history of some Islamic remains in the Saint Isidore basilica. But their discovery of two medieval Egyptian documents that mentioned the chalice of Christ caused them to change direction, the paper reported.
Those parchments told a tale of how Muslims took the sacred cup from the Christian community in Jerusalem to Cairo.
It was then given to an emir on Spain’s Mediterranean coast in return for help he gave to Egyptians who were suffering a famine.
The historians’ research has been backed up by scientific dating, which estimates that the cup in question was made between 200BC and 100AD.
The scientists admit the first 400 years of the cup’s history remain a mystery and they can’t prove the chalice ever actually touched Christ’s lips.
But they insist there is no doubt that this is the cup that the early Christians revered as the chalice used at the Last Supper.
“The only chalice that could be considered the chalice of Christ is that which made the journey to Cairo and then from Cairo to León — and that is this chalice,” said Torres, who teaches medieval history at the University of León.
Countless scientists and historians have pursued the Holy Grail, an effort chronicled in Arthurian legend, made into pulp adventure with Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade and satirised by the British Comedy troupe Monty Python in 1975’s Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Uhm, it should be called KIDDUSH cup, as the KIDDUSH cup was used at Passover (and weddings).

This is a pretty cup, but sorry to say, not a Kiddush cup. And no, Jesus didn't drink from this. Sorry, not His.

I've always though it was in Valencia, Spain. Legend has it that Saint Lawrence of Rome, who was from Spain and was the Church treasurer, gave it to his parents for safekeeping in the early third century. He was given three days by the emperor of Rome to turn over all of the Church's possessions. During those three days he gave every material possession that the Church had to the poor and disabled on the streets, asking them to meet him at the main Church where the bishop of Rome said mass at the time when the emperor was coming to collect and warning them of the danger he faced. When the emperor came, Lawrence was standing there with all the disabled and poor who he had given the Church's possessions to and said "These are the treasures of the Church. She is far richer than your entire empire." The emperor was so enraged that he had Lawrence roasted on a huge barbeque that night. The rest of the clergy including the bishop had already been executed three days before. Legend has it that Lawrence showed no pain because he was so happy to die for Christ, and that he said while he was roasting "I'm well done on this side, time to turn me over." The cup in Valencia is dated to the time of Jesus and is the same style and material as many cups that were used in Israel and the surrounding area at the time of Jesus. Not that it really matters where the cup is. There were a lot of churches, towns, and people claiming to have unrealistic relics like pieces of the true cross, the cloth Jesus was wrapped in, the bones of an apostle, etc throughout history.

I just want to jump in and say that yes, it probably is not the cup that Christ used at the last supper, there is no proof that it is, even the people from the article state as much.

The scientists admit the first 400 years of the cup’s history remain a mystery and they can’t prove the chalice ever actually touched Christ’s lips. But they insist there is no doubt that this is the cup that the early Christians revered as the chalice used at the Last Supper.

But to everyone saying it isn't, well where is the proof that it isn't? Just because some movie says a poor carpenter would not have a fancy cup? Christ knew it was going to be their last supper, he might have had the Owner of the house bring out the best china lol, the owner then afterwards may have kept it (I know I would) and perhaps later had it decorated, or others throughout time added a bit of gold here, some fancy flourishes there etc... Either way, none of us were there, I would love to see the documents myself that describe how the cup came to be and what not, it would certainly make for an interesting read coming from the actual records.

Majestic Lumen
I just want to jump in and say that yes, it probably is not the cup that Christ used at the last supper, there is no proof that it is, even the people from the article state as much.

The scientists admit the first 400 years of the cup’s history remain a mystery and they can’t prove the chalice ever actually touched Christ’s lips. But they insist there is no doubt that this is the cup that the early Christians revered as the chalice used at the Last Supper.

But to everyone saying it isn't, well where is the proof that it isn't? Just because some movie says a poor carpenter would not have a fancy cup? Christ knew it was going to be their last supper, he might have had the Owner of the house bring out the best china lol, the owner then afterwards may have kept it (I know I would) and perhaps later had it decorated, or others throughout time added a bit of gold here, some fancy flourishes there etc... Either way, none of us were there, I would love to see the documents myself that describe how the cup came to be and what not, it would certainly make for an interesting read coming from the actual records.

I wasn't referring to the movie, I was basing it on what I know about Judaism. I've seen kiddush cups, they aren't that big.

And Jesus didn't prepare for the Seder, He sent Peter to. And the Seder isn't about showing off bling, it's about the Passover. This just smacks of bling that might have been used at a wedding, but certainly not at a Seder.

They might have had very good wine, but that's probably it. Bling for Seder, no.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by CaptainBeno

 

Borrowing from Indiana Jones here...does that really look like the sort of cup a Middle Eastern carpenter would make or use? Particularly one as poor and selfless as Jesus? Far too extravagant. And personally, I'm not quite convinced that the grail is not actually a Sang real...a child of royal blood.

Hahaha, Akragon thought of the same movie. Great minds, my friend...

edit on 31-3-2014 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

I thought the same thing, but then I thought it's very likely the gold and stuff could've been added on later, like was done with the ornamentation of the supposed spear of destiny. The real chalice could be buried in there somewhere beneath the layers of bling. We need a better photo, or maybe a diagram from someone who has studied it, X rayed it, etc... different imaging devices can also detect hidden or worn out inscriptions and other stuff so if it hasn't been done yet this thing needs to be subjected to a ruthless array of tests. But of course we need to be wary of the false negative, like was done with the shroud of Turin when they tested only the outer edge where the cloth was repaired in medieval times (not the restaurant in Cable Guy).

According to the book - Relics - by Joan Carroll Cruz
The Holy Grail is in the Cathedral of Valencia.

The line of where the cup was went like this (according to the book)

- Barnabus and Saul took it to Antioch
- It was entrusted to the care of the faithful there.
- The cup was used by the popes until Sixtus II.
- During the persecution of Valerian, the cup went to St. Lawrence for safekeeping.
- In 258 He took it to Huesca (his birthplace).
- In 713, after the Moorish invasion, it was moved to the Monastery of San Juan de la Pena.
- Confirmation that the cup was still there in the 1300s.
- 1399 King Martin moved it to Saragossa.
- 1424 it was moved to Valencia by Alfonso V
- 1936 at the start of the Spanish Civil War it was moved and hidden by the church until the war ended.
- 1939 it was returned to the Cathedral of Valencia. It is still there now.