Faith or Works or Both?

reply to post by ghostfacekilah00

Finally took the time to find one of the many verses in the Bible stating that we are in fact debtors to God because of our sins.

We are in debt to God for adopting us as sons.
It has nothing to do with sin other than that sin is used to point out the opposite of what we are obligated to.
Romans 8:12
Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation--but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.
(2011 NIV)

reply to post by Akragon

hmm... sounds like something Paul would say...

Except Paul never said anything like that.
See my post above for the explanation of this debt.

jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon

 

hmm... sounds like something Paul would say...

Except Paul never said anything like that.
See my post above for the explanation of this debt.

edit on 3-4-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Jesus didn't say we are In debt to God...

In fact his prayer asks that we be forgiven any debt, as we forgive the debt of others...

This whole idea of a payment being owed or Jesus paying a debt is not from his teaching

reply to post by Akragon

Jesus didn't say we are In debt to God...

OK, then can you tell us what the definition of Lord is?

reply to post by jmdewey60


What does the definition of lord have to do with owing God anything?

Or Jesus, being said definition have to do with him paying any debt?

reply to post by Akragon

Or Jesus, being said definition have to do with him paying any debt?

Luke 17:10
So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.'"
(2011 NIV)
Jesus as our Lord makes us his servants, who we are obligated to obey.

Akragon

jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon

 

hmm... sounds like something Paul would say...

Except Paul never said anything like that.
See my post above for the explanation of this debt.

edit on 3-4-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Jesus didn't say we are In debt to God...

In fact his prayer asks that we be forgiven any debt, as we forgive the debt of others...

This whole idea of a payment being owed or Jesus paying a debt is not from his teaching

No we're not, because Jesus paid it. Those who sin but don't accept Jesus as the savior of their sins are in debt because of their sins though. That's what Christians believe.

reply to post by ghostfacekilah00

No we're not, because Jesus paid it. Those who sin but don't accept Jesus as the savior of their sins are in debt because of their sins though. That's what Christians believe.

Are you implying that there are those who "accept Jesus as the savior" and sin?
What is your definition of Sin?
Isn't it missing out?
The thing aimed at is eternal life.
So what you seem to be doing is setting up a contradiction of terms.
There is no biblical support for your theory, I hope you realize that.
There is a way that seems right to a man but leads to destruction.
(See Proverbs 14:12)

jmdewey60
reply to post by Maigret

 

The Son himself said that 'until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will fall from the Law/Commandments' Matthew 5:18 paraphrased. This sounds like mere rhetoric until you realize that 'heaven and earth WILL pass away, and there will be no more sea', [Emphasis mine] as stated in Revelation 21:1. So until this happens, the Commandments stand!

You are just making up your own explanation for what Jesus meant by "the Law or the Prophets". Jesus was saying that he was operating within that framework, that there was something within it that needed to be fulfilled, which is of course the very mission that he was embarking on and announcing then at that time.
Jesus was not giving a general lecture on the permanence of specific commandments within those writings.
The Prophets of course predicted the things that Jesus was bringing about, and the Law was supposed to be the dictates of Moses who talked with God, and within those revelations was one that there would follow him, one like himself who the people should follow because God would put the words in his mouth that he would say.
Jesus himself is the fulfillment and he was demonstrating it by standing on the mount and giving the law.
Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
(2011 NIV)
Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
(2011 NIV)
Luke 21:33
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The Son said in Mat 22:37-40 '... "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. "

Jesus did not one day decide to expound upon the Law, but responded to promptings by those who would test him, to see if they could catch him in a thought crime against the established religion.
He was asked, “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”.
He was given this question of something that existed in writing that the Jews considered Law.
So as not to be stoned on the spot, he had to go along with the decorum of supporting the official religion, by actually picking something out of the document.
Then he comments by saying that without the part that he had just recited, the document would be invalid as any sort of law.

His 'new' commandment in John 13:34 is where he said, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." does not in any way negate or do away with the Commandments of God, but extends the command to 'love your fellow man', from 'as yourself' to a new command to love others in the same self-sacrificing way 'he loved us'.

No, it actually was new, just as he said, and had nothing to do with the old written Mosaic Law. It was specifically about how Christians are to feel towards other Christians.

edit on 2-4-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

In brief:
The Son still has things to finish, so he has not completed the fulfilment yet. Such as his prophesied second coming, judgment, etc.

All the verses you quoted show that while the Law and Prophets will continue until the old heaven and earth do pass away, his words will continue on even after that.

The Son did not have to edit any of his words to avoid being stoned, because God is in complete control. They couldn't have stoned the Son even if they wanted to, unless it was part of God's overall plan.

I agreed that it was a 'new' command, but that doesn't mean it did away with his Father's commandments.

Christians will never have the opportunity to self-sacrifice in the way the Son's new commandment told his followers to, because this pertains to the Tribulation.

reply to post by Maigret

The Son still has things to finish, so he has not completed the fulfillment yet. Such as his prophesied second coming, judgment, etc.

I don't see how any of those things are relevant to us and how we live our lives out here on earth.
Unless, of course, you believe that there is reason to expect the end of the world in your lifetime.
I think what Jesus was doing is taking the expectations that the Jews had at that time and saying that they should focus in on him as the one who is to fulfill everything.
So what I am saying is that it is all hypothetical and may never actually happen in a literal way, for example Jesus says people are judged already by whether they believe in him or not, which makes a future judgement of the world redundant.
Jesus it the place, figuratively speaking, where the nations are gathered to divide the sheep from the goats.
The immediate judgment that Jesus was predicting within that generation of course was fulfilled as he said, which you can see played out by looking at the history of the Roman/Jewish wars by Josephus.

reply to post by Maigret

All the verses you quoted show that while the Law and Prophets will continue until the old heaven and earth do pass away, his words will continue on even after that.

How do you figure that?
The three verses that I quoted all say exactly the same thing, that Jesus' words would endure.
There is no mention in them of some other thing.

The Son did not have to edit any of his words to avoid being stoned, because God is in complete control. They couldn't have stoned the Son even if they wanted to, unless it was part of God's overall plan.

If not stoned outright, then rejected without any further hearing by the Pharisees, and all who followed those people's recommendations.
Jesus had to operate within those boundaries, that what had been written was law, as he taunts them with when he says that 'it could not be broken'.
John 10:35
If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came--and Scripture cannot be set aside--
(2011 NIV)

I agreed that it was a 'new' command, but that doesn't mean it did away with his Father's commandments.

Where does Jesus mention "his Father's commandments" in the context that it was specifically what they had written into their books?
In Matthew 19:17, where Jesus answers "If you want to enter life, keep the commandments", the Greek word translated here as "commandments" is the same one as is in the Septuagint version of Genesis 26:5
because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions.”
(2011 NIV)
for "commands", which of course was before there was a written law, Abraham being before Moses.
Jesus does mention "God's commandment" in Matthew 15:3
Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
(2011 NIV)
in order to point out that he doctors of the law were really putting themselves above what they presented to the people as God's law.

Christians will never have the opportunity to self-sacrifice in the way the Son's new commandment told his followers to, because this pertains to the Tribulation.

Is this a theoretical future tribulation?
We don't know how many people died already at the beginning of the church, which also coincided with the destruction of the old temple cult.

jmdewey60
reply to post by Maigret

 

In the Lord's prayer, our request is 'Forgive us our trespasses/sins, as we forgive those who trespass/sin against us'. With this, are we asking God to forgive us our sins against others, or our sins against Him? One of my main points is that we need to evaluate what 'sins' are specifically, and which sins lead to missing out on our eternal life/salvation?

It should be obvious that he was talking about infractions against each other.

It is stated elsewhere in the Bible, that God does not hear sinners; so it follows that any sinners praying the Lord's Prayer are not being heard by Him. And what's more, it is obvious that prayers God doesn't hear, won't be answered by Him.

Are you trying to make a catch 22, that no one can be forgiven, since whatever you need to be forgiven of prevents God from hearing your request?

Missing out on salvation is caused by ignorance and deception; not neglect as you claim!

Hebrews 2:3
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
(King James Version)

When the disciples asked the Messiah about what was to come with his return and end times, the very first point he made to them was "To beware that you aren't deceived!" Matthew 24:3 & 4 paraphrased. (Satan is the root cause of all deception and he's very busy with his own agenda!)

That's a different subject.

Is that 'section heading' you quoted of "The Greater Glory of the New Covenant" part of the original writings? No. So this is not particularly relevant in your efforts to debunk my point/s.

It is relevant because you are trying to say that the passage is saying the opposite as it is generally understood as saying.

You've ignored my point that the Old Testament, and more specifically the writings of Moses, have been deliberately hidden from general view as stated by 2 Corinthians 3:14 in the NEW TESTATMENT; and this veiling/cover is displayed accurately by you, because you think they no longer apply. In particular, God's Covenant of the Ten Commandments through Moses with the House of Israel.

I didn't ignore it, I responded by something that should have been interpreted as saying there is no validity to your claim, that you are completely misreading what Paul meant.

And who specifically is this 'great glorious New Covenant' made with? Christians? Again, no!

Everybody.

Hebrews 8:7 & 8 say 'For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah'.

He is quoting Jeremiah.
The point the writer of Hebrews was making was the insufficiency of the former covenant, with was originally made with Israel.
It doesn't somehow mean that any future covenants can only be made with a specific tribe.
I think you need to wake up to the realities of the modern world, that we aren't nomadic tribes leading sheep around in the wilderness.
We live in a global community and as John 3:16 says, God so loved the world . . .

edit on 2-4-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Again, in brief:
The understanding of this sentence in the Lord's Prayer may be subject to interpretation, but in the Apocalypse of Peter, it is clear that the 'sinners' who stand before the Judgment Throne are those who have committed sins against the Most High [God].

It is not a catch 22 situation at all, because with having your sins forgiven, you will be able to communicate personally and directly with God Himself. It is others, who have not yet been cleansed of their sins, whose prayers are not heard.

You have to be forgiven your sins to obtain salvation; once you've got this far, you need to ensure that you don't 'neglect' your position or you will lose your salvation and revert back to being a sinner; and you can't crucify Christ twice.

Being deceived is not a separate subject. It is part and parcel of all that the Son said, and is the first thing he warns about, because Satan most actively works against those who do follow him. The further you are away from God, the Son and/or the truth, the less the devil has to work against you.

Re: The section heading of 2 Corinthians 3:7 et al. If you read 2 Corinthians 3:3 you will see the mention of the 'glorious new' Covenant is about the Ten Commandments being written 'not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of flesh, that is the heart'. This ties in with Hebrews 8:8 where the 'new' Covenant is specifically to be written on the hearts and minds of those of the Houses of Judah and Israel.

Read the Apocalypse of Peter (scroll down to THE ETHIOPIC TEXT) at wesley.nnu.edu... to see who the Son came to save in the details of the parable of the Fig Tree, and how they are involved in the Tribulation.

You quote John 3:16 'For God so loved the world...' and seem to think this covers everyone irrespective of their standing, but it doesn't.

Work impacts others, faith does not...

work is better whether you belong to a religion or not.

jmdewey60
reply to post by Maigret

 

The Son still has things to finish, so he has not completed the fulfillment yet. Such as his prophesied second coming, judgment, etc.

I don't see how any of those things are relevant to us and how we live our lives out here on earth.
Unless, of course, you believe that there is reason to expect the end of the world in your lifetime.
I think what Jesus was doing is taking the expectations that the Jews had at that time and saying that they should focus in on him as the one who is to fulfill everything.
So what I am saying is that it is all hypothetical and may never actually happen in a literal way, for example Jesus says people are judged already by whether they believe in him or not, which makes a future judgement of the world redundant.
Jesus it the place, figuratively speaking, where the nations are gathered to divide the sheep from the goats.
The immediate judgment that Jesus was predicting within that generation of course was fulfilled as he said, which you can see played out by looking at the history of the Roman/Jewish wars by Josephus.

I agreed that it was a 'new' command, but that doesn't mean it did away with his Father's commandments.

Where does Jesus mention "his Father's commandments" in the context that it was specifically what they had written into their books?
In Matthew 19:17, where Jesus answers "If you want to enter life, keep the commandments", the Greek word translated here as "commandments" is the same one as is in the Septuagint version of Genesis 26:5
because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions.”
(2011 NIV)
for "commands", which of course was before there was a written law, Abraham being before Moses.

edit on 4-4-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

There are very clear and specific Biblical indications that we are in 'end times', or as some call it, 'the end of the age'. So yes, I definitely do expect the return of the Son in my lifetime, and within less than the next 10 years or so!

I believe the Bible to be literal, and so precise, it's scary. I also understand that the Bible was mainly meant for this last / final generation; which made it immaterial whether or not previous generations understood anything in it. Only this generation [those alive now] will actually face the Antichrist, and have the choice as whether or not to worship him or his image, receive his mark, etc.

Yes, you are judged already by whether you believe in him or not, because you will live your life according to what you believe. If you don't believe in him, it is the specifics of how you lived your life on which you will be judged at your 'trial', so to speak. And of course, the 'sentence' will depend on your 'works' as in Revelation 20:13.

For the Bible to make the best sense, it is important to have an overall view of what's happening and why. I like that saying 'If you chose, you're chosen' because incredibly, we choose whether or not we are sheep or goats.

God is not limited by time or space, so He already knows how we chose, but the choice is still up to us, and this is why it is not predestination!

reply to post by Maigret

Re: The section heading of 2 Corinthians 3:7 et al. If you read 2 Corinthians 3:3 you will see the mention of the 'glorious new' Covenant is about the Ten Commandments being written 'not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of flesh, that is the heart'. This ties in with Hebrews 8:8 where the 'new' Covenant is specifically to be written on the hearts and minds of those of the Houses of Judah and Israel.

"Moses" here is a metaphor for "God's Glory".
Moses saw that glory but it was too much for the Israelites, even if it was only a refection of that glory.
With the righteousness that is now possible through Jesus, we can now stand to face God (of course in a figurative sense, as long as we live in this life on this world).

You quote John 3:16 'For God so loved the world...' and seem to think this covers everyone irrespective of their standing, but it doesn't.

It depends on what you think "saved" means.
Now you may have in your mind an understanding of what that might mean, but it may very well have nothing to do with how it is used in the Bible.
John 3:16 doesn't mean that God is going across the face of the earth and rapturing the souls off to heaven.
It means that God has spread His rule over the entire earth because He wants them all to be His subjects so He can bless them.

jmdewey60
reply to post by Maigret

 

All the verses you quoted show that while the Law and Prophets will continue until the old heaven and earth do pass away, his words will continue on even after that.

How do you figure that?
The three verses that I quoted all say exactly the same thing, that Jesus' words would endure.
There is no mention in them of some other thing.

Matthew 5:18 " For verily I say unto you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled." (Paraphrased)

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. (2011 NIV)

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. (2011 NIV)

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

jmdewey60
reply to post by ghostfacekilah00

 

No we're not, because Jesus paid it. Those who sin but don't accept Jesus as the savior of their sins are in debt because of their sins though. That's what Christians believe.

Are you implying that there are those who "accept Jesus as the savior" and sin?
What is your definition of Sin?
Isn't it missing out?
The thing aimed at is eternal life.
So what you seem to be doing is setting up a contradiction of terms.
There is no biblical support for your theory, I hope you realize that.
There is a way that seems right to a man but leads to destruction.
(See Proverbs 14:12)

Yes I'm absolutely implying that. Every human sins, even the saints. Romans 3:11-18 - "There is no one who is righteous, not even one; there is no one who has understanding, there is no one who seeks God. All have turned aside, together they have become worthless; there is no one who shows kindness, there is not even one. Their throats are opened graves; they use their tongues to deceive. The venom of vipers is under their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery are in their paths, and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes." And Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
You have officially lost all credibility with me.

reply to post by Maigret

I believe the Bible to be literal, and so precise, it's scary. I also understand that the Bible was mainly meant for this last / final generation; which made it immaterial whether or not previous generations understood anything in it. Only this generation [those alive now] will actually face the Antichrist, and have the choice as whether or not to worship him or his image, receive his mark, etc.

I find all of this to be bizarre.
Can you explain how this makes any sense?
Does nothing exist except to be a mere backdrop before which this scene is to play out, that the mission of Jesus utterly fails and causes the destruction of the world?
I don't think so, and more likely this interpretation is made up to get attention for certain people (the inventors of these theories) who feel a need for such things.
(like Darby, who was overshadowed by these great people and wanted his own path to greatness and glory)
Even the very idea that there is this person, the antichrist, is completely made up and isn't even in the Bible.

jmdewey60
reply to post by Maigret

 

The Son did not have to edit any of his words to avoid being stoned, because God is in complete control. They couldn't have stoned the Son even if they wanted to, unless it was part of God's overall plan.

If not stoned outright, then rejected without any further hearing by the Pharisees, and all who followed those people's recommendations.
Jesus had to operate within those boundaries, that what had been written was law, as he taunts them with when he says that 'it could not be broken'.
John 10:35
If He called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came--and Scripture cannot be set aside--
(2011 NIV)

Your quote, John 10:35, comes from Psalm 82:6 7 'I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.'

I don't follow how this verse applies to Law? Even if God did call us 'gods' to whom the Word [Son] of God came, it does not make us equal to the God the Father or the Son of God.

This verse IS written in the Scriptures, and the Scriptures cannot be broken... in other words, they will come true!

In Matthew Chapter 4, where the Devil/Satan is tempting the Son, there are two verses that the devil quotes, in Verse 6, where Satan says in effect, 'Throw yourself down from this pinnacle, because God has given His angels to take care of you, in case you hurt yourself'.

This may give you some idea of the care God takes of His Son, and also for his followers, Matthew 10:29-31 'Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? And not one of them shall fall to the ground without your Father's will. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.'

reply to post by Maigret

. . . until heaven and earth pass away . . .

Which is a figure of speech.
It is not a prediction.