A Possible Solution to the "Hawking Paradox"

In 1975, Stephen hawking proposed that black holes will eventually radiate away into nothing. This radiation is known as "Hawking radiation", and the implications of this "evaporating" black hole is that nothing of the black hole would exist afterwards, meaning that the information that had happened to fall into that black hole would be gone forever. This means that the information would be destroyed and lost forever.

However, quantum theory does not allow for the destruction of information, so how could the black hole evaporate while leaving no information behind? This question became known as the "Hawking Paradox", and has bothered physicists (including Hawking, who himself sees the paradox) for years.

A physicist (Professor Chris Adami) at the Michigan State University thinks he has the answer -- Stimulated Emissions.

Stimulated emissions are not a new idea, but this application of it is new. The idea of stimulated emissions goes back to Einstein, and it basically a copying mechanism of information. Adami says (basically) that along with the Hawking radiation given off by a black hole, there is also a stimulated emission of the information in the black hole that is also radiated.

The solution, Adami says, is that the information is contained in the stimulated emission of radiation, which must accompany the Hawking radiation—the glow that makes a black hole not so black. Stimulated emission makes the black hole glow in the information that it swallowed.

A Solution To Stephen Hawking's Black Hole Paradox

Does ‘Copier’ Model Fix Hawking’s Black Hole Theory?

Professor Adami claims that his solution is an elegant one because it does not change Hawking's original idea of Hawking Radiation, and uses currently held theoretical ideas.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


Forgive my lack of knowledge on the subject but why exactly does quantum theory forbid the destruction of information?

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


what type of information is the black hole consuming ? and what type of information is spewed out upon death , strange word to use 'information'

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I admit to the folks above that my interest in this sort of stuff is more of a "hobby interest". I enjoy reading books about cutting edge physics, but those are the layman's/hobbyist books, such as books by Brian Greene, Leonard Susskind, Lee Smolin, Murray Gell-Mann, Brian Cox, and even older books like Books by Richard Feynman and Hawking's "A Brief History of Time".

If I get anything wrong, hopefully someone with better knowledge than me can help.

funbox
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

what type of information is the black hole consuming ? and what type of information is spewed out upon death , strange word to use 'information'

funBox

"Information" in the context of quantum physics is the basic description of quantum states. Generally, it is the description of the maost basic physical attributes of the most basic particles. However, this description goes down to the most fundamental level, that the description of this "information" can almost be thought of as the matter itself -- i.e., the fundamental building blocks of everything and all energy can be defined by this information.

In that respect, everything in the universe is quantum information.

QuestioningDude
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

Forgive my lack of knowledge on the subject but why exactly does quantum theory forbid the destruction of information?

The quantum theory says nothing can be totally destroyed. It can be broken down into its most fundamental particles, and it can be transformed, but never destroyed. Even when it is broken down in to its fundamental particles and those fundamental particles are rearranged into another larger particle, the original information is still there, just rearranged.

At first, people used to wonder what happened to the information in fundamental particles as matter fell into a black hole. Some felt the information was still there, but permanently locked any in the black hole for all eternity. The information would be preserved, but it would also be forever unavailable to the rest of the universe.

...But then Hawking came along and said that Black Holes eventually disappear into nothingness, but then that begged the question, "when the black hole disappears, where did the fundamental particles (and the information that defines those particles) go?" That is the Hawking Paradox.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


thanks for the thorough description , hmm, almost like information , presuming that blackholes are made of the same 'information', as they consume, has a mechanism for creating blackholes. to eat said information, thats a round and arounder that one

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reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

what type of information is the black hole consuming ? and what type of information is spewed out upon death , strange word to use 'information'

funBox

Wikipedia

The black hole information paradox results from the combination of quantum mechanics and general relativity. It suggests that physical information could permanently disappear in a black hole, allowing many physical states to devolve into the same state. This is controversial because it violates a commonly assumed tenet of science—that in principle complete information about a physical system at one point in time should determine its state at any other time. A fundamental postulate of quantum mechanics is that complete information about a system is encoded in its wave function up to when the wave function collapses. The evolution of the wave function is determined by a unitary operator, and unitarity implies that information is conserved in the quantum sense. This is the strictest form of determinism.

I believe the problem is if information or entropy can escape the universe like that then it kind of screws up a lot of things we think we know.

reply to post by Elton


it would always be a dead end hypothesis , no probe could ever survive the trip to prove it , may as well just give up on that idea straight off

funBox

Information cannot be destroyed, only reapportioned. (e.g.. NSA)

Im fairly certain that the point of hawking radiation from black holes is thats how hawking deals with the accepted physics law that matter and energy cannot be destroyed but only transformed. With hawking radiation, it all eventually transforms into radiation over a ridiculously large amount of time.

I actually disagree with hawkings hypothesis... but thats for another post.

And heres my hypothesis. The radiation is leaked energies from the connection between universes. Black holes are gravitationally formed conduits.. kind of cosmic whirlpools between worlds, and stars are exit points. One black hole could very conceivably power multiple stars, as we cant assume geometry between worlds would result in a 1 to 1 relationship. Perhaps only part of this is true, or maybe none of it - just a thought.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People



well for a hobbyist, your sure got the nack of using a hundred and fifty words to explain something that should only take seventy five down pat.

i thought i could string em out.

Soylent Green Is People
the "Hawking Paradox", and has bothered physicists (including Hawking, who himself sees the paradox) for years.

Not any longer, since Hawking wrote a 2 page paper not too long ago which allegedly resolves the paradox, but from a 2 page paper it's hard to say if it really does resolve anything:

Stephen Hawking's new theory offers black hole escape

Does Hawking mind being wrong?
Everyone hates being wrong – and Hawking is human. On his 70th birthday, he told New Scientist that he regards his idea that information was destroyed by black holes, which later turned out to be wrong, as his "biggest blunder" – in science, at least.

Personally I don't have such a problem with losing information in black holes, but maybe that's because I only took one post-graduate course in quantum mechanics which was enlightening but doesn't exactly make me an expert.

We can theorize all we want but it's very challenging to make black hole observations, so one may wonder if it's even possible to make observations which will satisfactorily resolve these questions.

Perhaps the energy of vacuum and virtual particles is the most basic information of all, so when matter falls into a black hole, and when that black hole evaporates, that is the type of information being conserved.

Since information cannot be destroyed, it follows that it cannot be created either, correct? Where did information come from when the universe came into being? If we follow the "bubble universe" in a multiverse hypothesis, the vacuum and its energy have been there all along, and nothing truly ever disappears, even in a black hole.

Einstein said, if black holes existe (maybe) white holes exist. White holes throw violently mass, so, if the black holes and the white holes are connected? One eat other throw? Just my opnion, I still a noob in astronomy.

(Sorry for the typos)

funbox
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

what type of information is the black hole consuming ? and what type of information is spewed out upon death , strange word to use 'information'

funBox

This is how I try to explain it ...

You can "rewind" every event that has happened, just like you do with a movie. You just need the information to do so. How did the moon get there? If we had the ringt information we could "replay" that event, or any other event. Much like our current idea of how the Moon formed, the more information we had, the closer we get to the real event. We can look at the aftermath of firing a gun, see where the bullet is, and figure out trajectory and where the shooter was.

Following so far?

Black holes eat that information. Once matter enters it, it's lost forever. If a bullet went into a black hole you could never determine where the shooter was. This new theory says the information isn't lost.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


What if this "information" isn't lost, but is simply invisible to the observers outside of the black hole? A bit like everything that is outside of the observable universe is invisible to us.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


are you trying to say black holes swallow the past too ? can you get one to swallow my credit history ?

how can the past be swallowed , time is not a particle, quantum or otherwise

odd

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