Astrology in the Bible: The Twelve Tribes of Israel (The Gamma Thread)

reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio

The date for the zodiac in your quote and link is a theory rather than fact. I personally believe that the zodiac is much older than that. I at least admit that mine is just a belief, with all due respect.

The date given for the date of the origin of the Zodiac, 600-700BC, is the consensus of scholars who have actually studied Babylonian history, writings and beliefs.

Your date is pure conjecture, without any basis, apart from your theory being blown out of the water by the fact that the Zodiac did not pre-date the writings of the Torah.

The surest way to lose credibility is to invent facts to support a theory that has been proven to be flawed from the start -- the only thing that the tribes of Israel have in common with the signs of the Zodiac is the number 12, and, if any copying occurred, it would appear that the Babylonians copied from the Israelites (which, of course, I do not believe to be the case.)

reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio


If there is a direct corredpondence, then the answer would likely be in 1 Chronicles 27. King David appointed a total of 12 military officers to oversee the months of the biblical SOLAR calendar (starting and ending with the vernal equinox).

First, you would have to determine the tribe of origin for each officer, then you would have to account for the zodiacal drift of the precession precession of the equinox.

David became king 3099 years ago.

reply to post by adjensen


The concept of the zodiac has been around for centuries and was developed during the Babylonians probably during the seventh century BC.

Isn't this your quote from another source? Note the word probably. You're trying to pass something off as a fact when your source admits that it's not a fact.

reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio

Isn't this your quote from another source? Note the word probably. You're trying to pass something off as a fact when your source admits that it's not a fact.

That's one source, of many. As I said, it is the scholarly consensus that the Babylonians formalized what we now consider to be the Zodiac in the 7th Century, BC. That's what the historical evidence is, and intentionally dismissing it is an argument from ignorance.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


I'd like to research those verses. Thanks!

reply to post by adjensen


I'd like to look at it. But to be honest, it sounds more like a theory than a fact. For me the word probably sounds off a red alarm. Do you have a more informative source, or one that may prove your point better? And as I mentioned, I readily admit that my theory is just a theory. And by the way, as I mention in my OP, I use a source as the foundation of my theory. None for dates, though.

brazenalderpadrescorpio
reply to post by combatmaster

 

I see the point of your post now. I think that most religionists would have you believe that in no way does the Bible condone astrology. But here is evidence that not only does the Bible condone astrology, but that the Bible actually contains subtle to overt (depending on your perspective and level of astrological expertise) allusions to astrology.

edit on bTue, 25 Mar 2014 18:40:16 -0500pm83America/Chicago3pmTuesday25America/Chicago by brazenalderpadrescorpio because: (no reason given)

Good info. Brazen. I've always believed that, and wanted to do more research but just get sidetracked too often. Similarly with the 12 apostles of Jesus - I wonder if it was merely a rehashing of the 12 tribes.

Don't forget that astrology and astronomy back then were almost one in the same - that being watching/monitoring celestial movements.

A perfect example of astrology/astronomy this is the mistranslated word "Lucifer." Lucifer is the Old/Middle English name for Venus or the morning star. The passage in the Bible (Isaiah 14:12) was referencing Venus, not some strange demonic entity. But for some strange reason some retard latched onto that passage as Lucifer being another word for Satan (also an incorrectly translated word) and it's forever been stuck.

However, it's not entirely strange given the pattern that the Venus Synodic cycle makes. That being the 40-year period *nudge, nudge, wink, wink* where Venus and the Earth are in conjunction in the solar system over five 8-year periods (pentagram).

reply to post by WCmutant


I've also heard that theory about Lucifer being a mistranslated word in Isaiah. I think that both Strong's and Vine's has the correct translation there.

Regarding the astrological correspondence of the twelve apostles, Linda Goodman (the astrologer I referenced in my OP) states that there is a book somewhere that gives that correspondence. As an example, she states that Paul was Gemini, Peter was Aries, Thomas was Virgo, and Judas was Scorpio (but that wouldn't make sense, since Paul replaced Judas). It'd be interesting to find that book.

I one time hunted down a book that she said she (Linda Goodman) was trying to hunt down called, Jesus Was a Leo. It wasn't that hard to get, I just special ordered it, and someone told me that they were surprised that I was able to get it since it was out of print. It's one of those strange things that happens in a person's life.

reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio


You're welcome.

Id like to make a small correction: David was crowned as king 3,033 years ago, but that shouldnt effect your results so long as you start at the Vernal Equinox, NOT the nearest new moon to the Vernal Equinox. The Rabbinical Lunisolar calendar is NOT original to the Torah, or else David would have appointed a 13th officer for the intercalary lunar month. If that were the case, the zodiac would slip irratically throughout the Lunisolar year.

12 zodiac for 12 months per year. Never 13.

reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio


I'd have to question that book. Thomas has Aramaic origins and in Aramaic (the language Jesus spoke) it means "twin." If that's the case, Thomas should clearly be Gemini and not Virgo. Albeit, they both are ruled by Mercury.

Also, to address the origins of Astrology - I use to believe that astrology was early mans attempt at psychology. That they similar recognized behavior patterns of individuals born in/around the same days/months and began to attribute it to celestial movements. (This was my theory MANY years ago.)

I've since believed that astrology was given to us as suggested in the Book of Enoch - Baraqijal taught astrology and Kokabel the constellations.

Interestingly enough, Barack's name actually comes from Baraq (Arabic/Hebrew) or a variation of it AND seems to have a deeper origin to Baraqijal (who taught astrology). It seems that some naming has even come from these "watchers" that taught things. Though this borders on the ancient aliens theory, it's hard to not see how these are intertwined when reading the Book of Enoch. You will find many similar references between writings of the Sumerian/Babylonian cultures and the Book of Enoch. If I had to guess, Enoch was most likely from the Mesopotamian region.

Let's not forget in Genesis that God created the lights in the heavens to separate day and night. "And let them be for signs and for seasons..." Another good example of astrological/astronomical references in the Bible - lights in the sky being used for signs and seasons!

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


I looked at 1 Chronicles, and it doesn't seem to match up. At times, there are 2 months per tribe (different months). I don't think that it necessarily has to match up with my theory to prove that my theory is correct. As Westerners we like to think that things have to be supra-logical to be able to verify them. The reality is that the ancient Hebrew culture was much more organic than say, the ancient Greeks (which our culture is partly descended from).

reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio


It was worth a try. In my experience with biblical numerology, all pieces have to line up and fit like a puzzle. The number pattern found in the syllables are directly connected to year count, which connect to the calendar, which connect to the Vernal Equinox. From my experience, I would expect to see any astronomical value to be connected to the numerology.

For exampel:

12x30= 360

360+5.25=365.25

105=49+7+49, so 10.5=5.25/2

One year is almost 52.5 weeks.

12 hours of day/night on equinoxes

12 zodiacs

7 days per week.

144,000 days of 360 day years per baktun

2100 days leftover per baktun

2100/105= 20.

Its all connected.

reply to post by WCmutant


The only problem with verifying things by means of old texts like the Bible and even Gnostic or non-canonical books is that you tend to come across distortions in the texts for various reasons. One reason is the error that is introduced from text that is over the ages copied. Another distortion is that it is hard to tell whether something is symbolic or literal. Those are just two examples of distortions. I personally prefer messages given to us like the Ra material, because it's couched in terms that modern man can understand for all of its over-simplification.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


To be honest, I'm not used to breaking things down like that from a mathematical perspective. I suck at math!! That said, I did toy with numerology at one point. I had a Chaldean key that I used (also from Linda Goodman), but I never got as proficient with it as I did with Western astrology. And I used it to understand people, not breaking things down in such an intense way like you just showed. I never even really got into predictive astrology. I just mostly studied birth charts and other things. I did develop an original system of predictive astrology however, but I don't want to say too much about that just in case I want to write a book about that in the future.

brazenalderpadrescorpio
reply to post by BELIEVERpriest

 

I looked at 1 Chronicles, and it doesn't seem to match up. At times, there are 2 months per tribe (different months). I don't think that it necessarily has to match up with my theory to prove that my theory is correct. As Westerners we like to think that things have to be supra-logical to be able to verify them. The reality is that the ancient Hebrew culture was much more organic than say, the ancient Greeks (which our culture is partly descended from).

Theres definitely overlap going on with the tribes, and their descriptions/totems/blessings. With the tribes, multiple are called lions, and gazelles or hinds. Possibly there weren't actually that many tribes but they needed to make the 12 fit, so they added backstory, and none too much, most of the brothers get little mention in the bible. Some think that the Levites were a foreign tribe, and weren't actually sons of Jacob,. Or they came after the return from Babylon. They were planted by the gubmint, they took the old religion (see my tag) and covered it with the Torah, edited the old collections of fables, sagas, kings lists, sanitized it (the Deuteronomist purge), and boom the OT. And the reason why there are so many inconsistencies, and doublets, because they were taking different source material and piecing it together. This false religion is what Jesus came out against, in the pharisees.

reply to post by zardust


I've heard of that theory too. I'd have to do more research about that, all I've read is David Icke's book on the subject (I can't pull up the name; I'm on my tablet). I do know that there was a lot of intermixing with the Canaanite religions, even though Christians usually tend to deny this. And that interchange of ideas is what I think they've edited out of the Bible (or Bi-Bull as Truthiracy would say).

reply to post by brazenalderpadrescorpio


I would also like to point out, that there were also 12 disciples too. I dont know if the each represented a tribe of Israel, but do they fit the same zodiacal template that you have put forth?

It is no question that the number 12 is found througout the bible and in astrology, but we must all ask ourselves, what is the true focus of the phenomenon? Is the focus on the 12 zodiac signs (which are subjected to the number 12), or is the focus on the number itself? Kinda like, "the chicken or the egg" situation.

Consider the facts:

12 hours (of 60 minutes) per day and night on the equinoxes
12 months per year.
12 zodiac signs.

The average between the lunar year and solar year is an even 360 days. All of the most ancient calendars record a change in the length of earths solar year from 360 days to 365.25 days. I believe it was a result of the Great Flood.

I see the hand of a creator. Why have 12 zodiac, a solar cycle evenly divisible by 12 months, and days that are evenly divisible by 12 hours? Maybe because the number 12 is the focus, not the stars and not the tribes of Israel.

I am not dismissing the role of the stars in the bible. Instead, I am simply suggesting that the focus be placed on the common factor rather than making an individual factor the 'common factor'.

In this case, the common factor is the number 12.

reply to post by BELIEVERpriest


I think it's more than a coincidence that you mention wondering about the reason for the symbology of numbers, and that I mentioned Truthiracy in my last post. In my last thread about astrology in the Bible, someone unknowingly turned me on to the youtube channel, Truthiracy (I'm still very much a Truthiracy noob, though). I highly recommend watching as many videos as you can. I've discerned that you have some affinity towards religious dogma, so you may be religiously offended by the videos, but try to have an open mind. He goes off on thought-experiments that sounds like he has no type of credible background (the things he says, and the way he talks can be downright hilarious; I think that my literal voice sounds like his), but at times you can tell that he's exceptionally bright, and in some weird way, knows what he's talking about. He mentions things like the symbology of the number 12 very many times.

As far as my OP is concerned, I think that the similarities of the twelve tribes to the twelve signs of the zodiac, from an astrological standpoint, are overt. But that's just the way I see it.

The source Adjensen noted is correct.The Patriarchs(Sons) of Israel predate the invention of the Zodiac.

On that note the nation of Israel were not virtuous or more advanced in the least.They were as fallible as fallible comes(read just the exploits of Judah alone).
The 12 tribes of Israel (the sons of Israel) are an archetype of ALL of mankind.That is the general theme of all the scriptures.They are just "ordinary" men doing ordinary men things(being religious).They had an experience with the creator God and did as ordinary men do...make up stories of religion of how "their" God told them to do things like ....massacre a group of people because they were "evil" and then invade their country because THEY are the chosen "good" people etc etc....
Things have not changed one bit.Men still believe God has chosen them to be "special" and to overthrow other "evil" men in the "name" of their God.That is the religious nature of ALL mankind in a type of Israel.

I am not condemning the tribes of Israel .They acted according their nature and character. That is what a "name is"...the nature and character of the thing or person named. The main thrust of the scriptures isn't "here's a group of "holy people"(Israel ,the apostles etc etc) just do what they did and God will approve.In effect it is the opposite for some ( the nation of Israel) DON"T be like this..but of course some have gone so far as to believe THEY are the "new Israel." ...and act like the apostles.

The fact is Israel is the archetype of the nature of man and some very basic principles are "written in their history" starting with their names.Names are the nature and character of the thing or person named.The names of the sons are not arbitrary.They are the sons of Jacob who became Israel(after his name change) which means struggles with God.The 12 sons mothers (there were 2 ...the sisters Leah and Rachel) named them.
Reuben,Simeon,Levi,Judah,Dan,Naphtali,Gad,Asher,Issachar,Zebulun,Joseph,Benjamin

The essence of scriptures of Israel is the plight of ALL mankind.They band as nation of brothers and wreak havoc everywhere they go.They eventually split and became the Northern Kingdom... the House of Israel(composed of 10 tribes) and the southern kingdom...the House of Judah(with Benjamin and some Levites ) They were sworn mortal enemies.Eventually the House of Israel were assimilated into many other nations and were no more and remain so to this day.

My main point is their history is a "type and shadow" of all mankind's history.Yes they were historically real.They weren't a myth.What "they said happen in the scriptures isn't always what it appears to be(the wrathful, vengeful, blood lusting God blah blah blah)..

That's the beauty of the truth of the scriptures.They were completely unaware of what was really going on.They believed THEY were the only chosen of God.They had no idea what it was about at all.They were just told to do certain things a certain way and they made up their own way(613 ordinances).

One that WAS told them by the creator God was how to "encamp" in the wilderness with Moses as their leader .Which is connected to it's counter part in what was called the the breastplate of judgment (like a vest ) the priest Aaron wore when he stood before the ark of the covenant.

The breastplate had a specific pattern of specific stones attached to it arranged in birth order of the sons starting from the priest left to right in a matrix of 4 rows of 3 sons names:
3-2-1
6-5-4
9-8-7
12-11-10

Judah-Simeon-Reuben
Gad-Issachar-Dan
Zebulun-Naphtali-Asher
Ephraim-Manasseh-Benjamin

Notice Levi (the 3rd son) and Joseph(the 11th son) are missing from the breastplate.Joseph gave his birthright to his 2 sons Manasseh and Ephraim.Levi became the priest(which Aaron and Mose were from) so he was not on the breastplate.

Now the REAL meaning behind all of the scriptures.Yahoshua (Jesus) said to some Jews many years later."you search the scriptures thinking that in them you have life YET you fail to come to me whom they TESTIFY of that I would deliver(save) you".

The testifying is the Truth which are actually written in numbers!.All of the scriptures are numbers in gematria.The last of the Old Testament scripture was written about 450 BCE..the process called gematria came into existence for Hebrew about 30 BCE.Gematria is where the letters also equal numbers(in Greek is called isopsephia)

That means all the scriptures are actually written in numbers.This is NOT numerology or kabala or any mystic system.The real place to start is Genesis 1:1.....which the gematria reveals a math that is so perfect it is a"testimony" to the rest of the scriptures.The fact is there is no way to know exactly what ALL of the OT scriptures were ...and that isn't the point.WE do have many archeological records by the Dead sea scrolls.The record of the 12 sons of Israel is very consistent with all the ancient writing records.

Which brings up the significance of names.Naming is one of the most significant aspects of all scriptures.The creator God "names" Adam(which means red clay or soil and man) then tells him to name creatures.That doesn't just mean give it a "word" to call it but a meaning elucidate it's "nature character". This process was held through the ages and especially with Israel.They held the name of YHWH (the tetragrammaton) in such high regard that only the high priest Aaron was allowed to say it on the day of atonement.


contd.....

Here are the numbers of the names of the sons of Israel on the breastplate order

30-466-259
7-570-54
95-830-501
331-395-162

Judah-Simeon-Reuben
Gad-Issachar-Dan
Zebulun-Naphtali-Asher
Ephraim-Manasseh-Benjamin

at first glance there appears to be no patterns or purpose to this however it is the core of the testimony of truth of the scriptures.

the bottom row(4th) 12-11-10=
331+395+162=888

the 3rd row plus the 1st of row 2=
95+830+501+54=1480

the remaining 1st row and 2nd row

30+466+570+
7+570=1332

that is the crux of the most significant numbers of the scripture.
The Hebrew name Yahoshua is translated in Greek (the language the new testament was written) as Iesous.The Greek isopsephia (gematria) for Iesous=
Iesous=888

The Hebrew word mashiach(messiah) is translated into Greek as "christos'(christ).The isopsephia for christos is
christos=1480

The patriarchs mothers nor the patriarchs knew the number of their names.However Yahoshua did.That is why Yahoshua told John to "calculate the number of the beast AND the number of man which both were 666.
666+666=1332

The number 666 is not evil.It is intimately tied to 888 in a multitude of ways mathematically. Yahoshua said the "scriptures
" testified" of him.The old testament "scriptures are about the people of Israel.The name Yahoshua means Yahweh (the creator God) IS the deliver(salvation)...it all adds up.

The breastplate of judgement which essentially means measurement...weighed in the balance..which is the construct of justice.Yahoshua has "judged his people...Israel...however Israel is not just people who came from the mideast.They are an archetype of ALL humanity.

Yahoshua is the Son of Man(the beast and man 666+666=1332) and is on the same breastplate of judgment.

His name is in the patriarchs a grand total of 6 times when Josephs name/number (156) and Levis(46) is added and the alternate "2nd" spelling to Zebulun2(101)

395+331+162=888
Manasseh+Ephraim+Benjamin
466+331+54+30+7=888
Simeon+Ephraim+Dan+Judah+Gad
570+162+95+54+7=888
Naphtali+Benjamin+Zebulun+Dan+Gad

888 with Joseph ,Levi and Zebulun2
------------------------
466+259+156+7=888
Simeon+Rueben+Joseph+Gad
570+162+156=888
Naphtali +Joseph+Benjamin
501+156+101+54+46+30=888
Judah+Dan+Levi+Zebulun2+Joseph+Asher
--------------------------
christos is:
830 + 501 + 95 + 54=1480
Issachar+Asher+Zebulun+Dan
830 + 466 + 101 +46 +30 +7=1480
Issachar+Simeon+Zebullun2+Levi+Judah+Gad
--------------------------------

The Hebrew name Yahoshua in gematria=
Yahoshua=397
hamashiach=363
397+363=760

501+259=760
Asher+Rueben
466+162+95+30+7=760
Simeon+Benjamin+Zebulun+Judah+Gad

The mathematical alignment is very extensive(I may start a post on it).The "stars" of the cosmos do not influence life's by mystical confluence.In Revelation 12(which is all metaphors) there are the 12 stars.They are symbolic of the 12 sons of Israel. In Genesis:1:14 Let them be a sign for the seasons" is connected metaphorically to Israel as humanity.

The fact is astrology is conjecture of mysticism. There are no solid facts that conclusively conclude the physical stars effect our life the way astrology predicts.It is superstition at best.However the numbers of the patriarchs is grounded in fact.Those names are real and they sum to to those significant numbers however that doesn't mean there is "magic mysticism" in them.They don't predict historical events.That is never what prophecy was about.All prophecy of the scriptures testify to ONE thing ..Yahoshua...God is the deliver of mankind....period.However it is not giving ALL the intimate details of how nor needs to.The math of the scriptures is just fact.The creator God wrote it in the "stars" through the Sons of Israel....mankind.