NEWS: Pentagon Advisory Panel: US "alienating" worlds Muslims

A Pentagon advisory panel has warned the US is losing "the war of ideas" in the Islamic world. The Defense Science Board recommends urgent changes to avoid furthering what is seen as the "self-serving hypocrisy" of US aims of bringing democracy to Muslim nations.



The reports conclusions may seem self evident to some, and the chances of it having an impact on foreign policy at this stage in the game are probably negligible. If anything changes it'll be the same thing as businesses do when faced with criticism; change the image of the problem, but leave the symptoms alone. If anything though it may be food for thought for some, but the usual response of ‘who cares what they think’ will probably suffice for most.

Related News Links:
www.acq.osd.mil
msnbc.msn.com
www.nytimes.com

Related ATS Threads
www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 11-25-2004 by Zion Mainframe]

America to me looks like a colonial power. Just as us Brits brought civilisation to the savages in Asia in the 19th century, the USA is doing the same for the middle east now.

You can hear the grunts saying to each other "why can't these people be more civilised and democratic like us' as they launch another barrage of mortars into the towns in Iraq.

Actually I'm not anti-US as you might think from that rant, but lets face it, theres another side to every story. We saying we are bringing democracy, they just see the bombs rain down on their houses.

Peace everyone.

Well this could very well be true, I think the muslims are doing a good job of alienating Americans

POST is also covered here

Is not doubt that the actions of the US when it comes to policies in the middle east is alienating the muslin nations.

The war on "Terrorism" can be seen as a war on the muslin, and Islamic ideology.

US has not taken upon themselves to draw a line on what they chose as to call enemy.

The actions in Iraq and the civilian casualties are a very good example of that.

Originally posted by edsinger
I think the muslims are doing a good job of alienating Americans

Excuse me? Does this matter? ...The Americans are invaders, and they are doing more to breed terrorists than anything ever has before.

Good job Keg. Important news, for those with the wit to pay attention.


.

Originally posted by marg6043
Is not doubt that the actions of the US when it comes to policies in the middle east is alienating the muslin nations.

The war on "Terrorism" can be seen as a war on the muslin, and Islamic ideology.

US has not taken upon themselves to draw a line on what they chose as to call enemy.

The actions in Iraq and the civilian casualties are a very good example of that.

Dammit marg, just what war had NO civilian casualties? NONE! and you know it, either you are on hallucinogenic drugs are in need of some. You just can not recognize reality at all.

Why when we attack back we are the bad guys? 911 was the last straw, we gave them many of chances.....we will now finish it.

My first reaction to this news article was "Duh!". It took the Pentagon this long to figure that out? Who is in charge over there? Oh, that's right, tweedle-rummi and tweedle-dubya.

Edsinger says: Dammit marg, just what war had NO civilian casualties? NONE! and you know it, either you are on hallucinogenic drugs are in need of some. You just can not recognize reality at all.

It's so easy for you to say with self-righteous conviction it's acceptable that OTHER INNOCENT PEOPLE are getting killed as you sit safely and comfortably in front of your PC. Sorry, Edsinger, you are the one on durgs or in need of some. Marg sees the picture quite correctly.

Why when we attack back we are the bad guys? 911 was the last straw, we gave them many of chances.....we will now finish it.

Why? Because neither Iraqis nor Afghanis attacked the US on 9/11/2001.

Finish it? Against the wrong target? Your blind uninformed support for this madness is fueling the fire of hatred toward us. Do you really think that's such a wonderful idea? The Islamic world's attitude toward the US is well-founded and has been long before anything happened on 9/11/2001. The book is not closed on what really happened that day and who did it.

I know that for 30 years, since the Iran hostage crisis, I as an Amreican have been feeling more and more alienated from the arab world....years of chanting death to America was nailed home on 9-11
GET THE MESSAGE YET?

As far as the muslim world feeling alienated from the us/west....perhaps their media is only feeding them a diet of theocratically controlled views that ONLY support a position that projects this alienation.

Just look at this from the link cited,

"The overwhelming majority voice their objections to what they see as one-sided support in favour of Israel and against Palestinian rights, and the long-standing, even increasing, support for what Muslims collectively see as tyrannies, most notably Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan and the Gulf states.

Muslims dont even like egypt, saudi arabia, jordan, pakistan, and gulf states that have become westernized and/or have interactions with the USA, especially if they are saying those places are "tyranies".
Are these muslims madbecause we support these countries or because those countries take USA support?
Blame America for muslims cooperating with us....the blame there starts with "USA sympathetic muslims" id think.

Who dont some of these muslims have a problem with if a list of muslim nations is on a bad list because they interact with the USA?

Soficrow says,

The Americans are invaders, and they are doing more to breed terrorists than anything ever has before.

Have you been paying attention to muslim acts of aggression against the USA interests for the past 25-30 yrs?
Muslims hit us on 9-11 BEFORE the USA invaded Iraq.
It would seem that there was already enough terrorists willing to attack us before then....enough to take hostages, blow a marine barraks to rubblealong with several african embassies, the uss Cole, the first WTC attack....and those are just acts against the USA. They have attacked others in similar fashion.

Can you show figures for how many terrorists there were before the Iraq war, and how many there are now?
No is the realistic answer here, so how then can you say the USA is making more terrorists with NO objective data?
Now im not so stupid as to think that SOME muslims might be brought into terrorism because of their perceptions of American influence...

It is also entirely possible that muslims could be getting a message that terrorism is no longer a crime without consequences. Indeed some muslims might be seeing that continuing to preach hate of the west and use of these tactics will not bennifit them, their families, their nation, and will indeed only garner MORE interfearance from the USA than less.
This is the message they need to not only hear but understand.

After 9-11, how many MORE Americans were "recruited" to no longer tolorate third world countries making and executing threats against the USA? Any Muslims out there want to say, "yeah 9-11 really wasnt great for muslims because it caused muslims in general to get a bad wrap and definatly gave the USA an "excuse" to come over to the mid east in force and mess with muslims MORE not less.

Well, Caz, nice job of ignoring the point of kegs' post. Now that you've had your rant, tell us what you think is the cause of the Muslim world's negative feelings toward the U.S. Any thoughts about that?

How exactly do you see me avoiding the topic of "muslim alienation" here?
Especially when i expressed my feelings of alienation from muslims, and then went right to discussing things cut and pasted from kegs post/source?

I also commented on other posters participations in this discussion, how is this changing the topic somehow?

The feeling of alienation goes BOTH WAYS here....and much of it is cultural differences....



[edit on 26-11-2004 by CazMedia]

You don't need to be on drugs to see the years of bad policies that the US has done to the middle east in favor of the Israelis.

You don't have to be in drugs to see how the US kiss butt to the Saudi Government.

You don't need to be on drugs to see how the US made Bin-laden.

You don't need to be on drugs to see how the US allowed, India, Pakistan and Israel to have nuclear power.

You don't need to be on drugs to see the humanitarian crisis in Iraq due to the invasion.

You don't need to be on drugs to see the terrorism that has been allowed across the borders into Iraq after the invasion because the Oil fields were priority.

You don't need to be on drugs to see how we our administration has forgotten bin-laden for the pursue of Iraq.

Yes you can be blind edsinger to the Truth and the only thing you can do is to insult the ones that can see beyond Jesus Crusade in the White house.

Iraq is in the border of a civil unrrest and US has to feed and provide for the people of that country no matter what it has done to that nation and we the tax payer in US has to pay for all of Mr. Bush mistakes.

Whao in pursue of "democracy" we are US are invadors, killers and bullies, we has not only manage to alienated Europe but now the muslins hate us more than ever.

Originally posted by marg6043
You don't need to be on drugs to see the years of bad policies that the US has done to the middle east in favor of the Israelis.

To support a country under threat from terrorism from the PLO is "bad policy"?

You don't have to be in drugs to see how the US kiss butt to the Saudi Government.

To have a stable source of oil for our nation and to make a nation that is the keystone to the entire muslim world our friend is a "butt kissing"?

You don't need to be on drugs to see how the US made Bin-laden.

Due to circumstance and opportunity the US was forced into helping the mujahideen in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation. We had no military resources in that region to effectively counter the Soviet threat. If we had not supported them the Soviets would have marched on till they got to the Indian Ocean!
A sociological study was not conducted on the region before the US decided in helping the Afghanistanis ; would you have preferred that the CIA have interviewed every fighter for possible terrorist and extreemist tendencies??

You don't need to be on drugs to see how the US allowed, India, Pakistan and Israel to have nuclear power.

Hindering progress would help to fuel animosity towards America. Also India and Israel both have a very good nuclear safe gaurds. Pakistan�s nuclear arsenal is also reportedly under close US supervision.
America imposed sanctions on both India and Pakistan after their tests and some of them are still in place today. Both the Indians and the Pakistanis developed nuclear weapons despite US pressure not to do the same, both used alternate sources to achieve this goal (India-Soviets, Pakistan- Chinese).

You don't need to be on drugs to see the humanitarian crisis in Iraq due to the invasion.

Do you realize that the suffering of the Iraqi people under Saddam was much greater than their present condition, even as the US tries to restore and to fund its reconstruction projects in Iraq? The invasion was called for as without it Saddam would have remained in power to oppress his people longer or the muslim fundamentalists would have taken over and created a bigger hell!
Also the US wanted the Arab world to understand that muslim fundamentalism was not the path to a successful and peaceful future and democracy would o be their only deliverance from Fundamentalism.

You don't need to be on drugs to see the terrorism that has been allowed across the borders into Iraq after the invasion because the Oil fields were priority.

The Oil fields of Iraq are its only future without which they cannot survive economically as a nation, so it is more important that these assets were kept safe so that the Iraqis could latter use it to effectively rebuild their country into the rich and proud nation that it deserves to be.

we the tax payer in US has to pay for all of Mr. Bush mistakes.

Whao in pursue of "democracy" we are US are invadors, killers and bullies, we has not only manage to alienated Europe but now the muslins hate us more than ever.

I understand that Bush committed some errors but to say that we are invaders is tendentious because we acted only after 9/11 and not before with our policy of pre-emtive strikes for "self preservation".
You could very well argue that Iraq didn't directly harm America and 9/11 was the only an excuse to start Bush's NWO plan but he didn't go about it until 9/11- I mean he didn't come to office with a plan on World Domination!
Moreover Bush gave ample time to the Taliban to hand over Osama but they refused to do so and thus the war on terrorism followed. The whole world supports the idea of combating terrorism as Islamic fundamentalists are bent on creating anarchy in every region of the World to destabilize existing democracies and establish their "Barbaric" form of governance.
The Muslim world needs to go through a period of renaissance and re-examine what really their religion preaches about. They should uniformly condone their fundamentalists and work towards establishing a more progressive and tolerant Islamic world!
Thus I would conclude that in my opinion the Muslims of the world are bringing upon themselves isolation due to their inaction in curbing their brand of extremism and fundamentalism which is a threat to every major country in the world!

Originally posted by dubiousone
The Islamic world's attitude toward the US is well-founded and has been long before anything happened on 9/11/2001.

If that is acurate then one has to assume that nothing we can do now is going to change that. If you ask me, Islam will hate the US as long as Israel continues to exist. It is kinda tragic that the US, a country that is not ruled by religion, is brought into a fight and made to seem the bully specifically due to not just one religion, but two (and maybe three if the christians here get too crazy).

I agree with CazMedia, much of it is cultural. The root of Islamic culture is what? Uh huh. Religion. A violent and dangerous one that will be used to justify the attempted extermination or subjigation of anyone who does not bow to it. Infiltration is already underway in Europe and Asia as we see from the increasing number of news reports about cultural and religious conflicts between Muslims and (insert resident non-muslim population here).

I keep saying, Islamic Europe in within 20 years. The signs are there. Just because it's not politically correct to believe it, doesn't mean its not going happen.

Originally posted by IAF101

To support a country under threat from terrorism from the PLO is "bad policy"?

Really it looks like you have forgotten how Israel and Palestine conflicts came to be, everybody wants to blame Palestine for all the evils of Israel and how the US has turn their head to the other side when it comes to the palestinians pleads for help.

To have a stable source of oil for our nation and to make a nation that is the keystone to the entire muslim world our friend is a "butt kissing"?

Yeah you are talking about the Saudi royal family and his dirty rule, their ties with the carlyle group, bin-laden and the Bush family, also we have forgotten that they finance terrorism and also they were the mayority of the "terrorist" that were involved in 9/11, but alas we bombed Afghanistan and then end up in Iraq.

A sociological study was not conducted on the region before the US decided in helping the Afghanistanis

; would you have preferred that the CIA have interviewed every fighter for possible terrorist and extreemist tendencies??

Care to bring some links? It seems to me that any excused is a good excused for the creation of bin-laden. Look at afghanistan right now �they have elections� they are a �democracy� really? They have a booming economy in the drug traffic business, because they have not other way to support an economy. Another humanitarian crisis going on.

Hindering progress would help to fuel animosity towards America. Also India and Israel both have a very good nuclear safe gaurds. Pakistan�s nuclear arsenal is also reportedly under close US supervision.
America imposed sanctions on both India and Pakistan after their tests and some of them are still in place today. Both the Indians and the Pakistanis developed nuclear weapons despite US pressure not to do the same, both used alternate sources to achieve this goal (India-Soviets, Pakistan- Chinese).

Yeah, US is very good at pointing out who to call axils of evil and who to call a friend, and the entire area is has a reputation of being a volatil area but US allowed nuclear power to be pursue by the few, and again did US allowed them or they just did it without asking? The hipocracy. I don't see US invading any of them.

Do you realize that the suffering of the Iraqi people under Saddam was much greater than their present condition, even as the US tries to restore and to fund its reconstruction projects in Iraq?

Yeah, the same all say so, Sadam was a horrible dictator, but guess what we have destroy that country and we are destroying their people, they have to see death everyday in their country with the �liberation� alone, is denigration of their cities, they are dependant now on US for food, care and everyday littler things we take for granted, and on top of that is not end to their crisis. If you think that having 160,000 Iraqis living in tents because one of their Cities is in shambles I wonder about your mentality of Sadam been a horrible leader US invasion has brought them more anguish.. And now the christian comunity is in exile, so much for freedom of religion, but is ok we have a poppet governemnt with his own hidden agenda in power, remember the 45 minute MWDs that Sadam could get working anytime, well thank Allawi for that one.

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The Oil fields of Iraq are its only future without which they cannot survive economically as a nation,

Do you said that their oil fields are more important than the safety of their people?, but that is ok because there are beyond you.Right? All about oil. But guess what we are paying for this war and is costing our nation more than you can ever imagine.

I understand that Bush committed some errors but to say that we are invaders is tendentious because we acted only after 9/11 and not before with our policy of pre-emtive strikes for "self preservation".
The whole world supports the idea of combating terrorism as Islamic fundamentalists are bent on creating anarchy in every region of the World to destabilize existing democracies and establish their "Barbaric" form of governance.

Mr. Bush forgot about 9/11 the day he put foot in Iraq. The muslin people does not need a self righteous christian crusader like Mr. Bush to tell them how to do business, terrorism is a join fight not the fight of one men, and one nation.

Period of renaissance my butt, you better re-examine why they hate our nation so much, this is not something they started yesterday but years and years of bad policies and war and destruction of their countries is not going to make it any better.



[edit on 26-11-2004 by marg6043]

A Pentagon advisory panel has warned the US is losing "the war of ideas" in the Islamic world.

Was a "panel" really needed to tell them this? Isn't this pretty much common knowledge to anyone over the age of 10???

I agree with Ambient above, save for on this point....

The Oil fields of Iraq are its only future without which they cannot survive economically as a nation, so it is more important that these assets were kept safe so that the Iraqis could latter use it to effectively rebuild their country into the rich and proud nation that it deserves to be.

Yes, but NOT securing the borders was an even larger tactical error by the Administration, and one that we are now paying for as we are facing an insurgency largely led and organized not by Iraqis, but by foreign terrorists and mercs. This too, is not good for the Iraqi people, nor is it making them safer.

As for:

(and maybe three if the christians here get too crazy).

Too late. Didn't you catch the election??? Supposedly.... America was too busy worrying about gays getting married to worry about security, and "supposedly" tons of Christian closet voters came out of the woodwork to ensure Paladin Bush a second term. Of course, I'm more of the persuasion that these "voters" were of the electronic variety, surnamed "Diebold", but hey, that's me... Even the Bush supporters I know are perplexed, as they didn't think Bush had a prayer.... The Christians here have already gotten too crazy, and the war has changed into a Crusade...whether the moniker is assigned here or not. Why? Because with Bush's re-election, the moniker has already been assigned in the Arab world, and there, perception is much more important than fact. The Arab world largely sees this (and the increasing rhetoric to nations like Iran) as a Christian Crusade in modern times... With the zealot at the helm...I'm not so sure they're far off the mark....

It seems like most of this thread puts all Muslims together into one united lump- like "All Catholics are against birth control." If this were true why do various Muslim groups each plot to kill each other off? Also, why do most Muslims live in peace and harmony, rather than brandish terrorism?

The roots of current terrorism can be traced to Ibn Taymiyah born in 1263 and Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab (hence �Wahhabi� sect) born in 1703.

Ibn Taymiyah (1263-1328) preached fighting against the Muslim enemies of the time - the Tatars.

Abd al Wahhab (1703-1792) formed his views based on Ibn Taymiyah and preached "purifying" Islam by retreating to past ways and killing off anyone who opposed his narrow conservative views. His was a message of hatred against anyone who didn't see things the way he did.

In this century, the breeding ground for this form of Islam is Saudi Arabia where it is taught in "religious" schools called "madrasahs." Unfortunately, for the past 30 years this hatred has been instilled in its youth but our leaders were too blinded by oil wealth to want to see it � our leaders looked the other way and pretended this was not happening so as not to "offend" the Saudi leaders whose hands were on the oil spigot. In fact, our leaders encouraged this fanaticism because in the cold war these warrior Muslims fought against the Russians in Afghanistan and the Russians were our enemies at that time. "What goes around comes around" and now this ignored hatred has spread from Saudi Arabia to the undergrounds of 60+ countries and like a virus it is infecting others. No matter what we do or don�t do, these core people can not be satisfied; they are too full of self-righteous fanaticism and they want to kill people that do not share their views.

Sympathy with the plight of the Palestinian people, and the antagonism between the Jews and Muslims - pushes moderate Muslims in the direction of the views of the fanatics and can swell the ranks of the fanatics. It is in the best interest of the Muslims and the Jews and the rest of the world if the Jews and Muslims put their hatred aside and somehow gather up their strength to learn to live in peace. Providing a country for the country-less Palestinians would be a good start. It is time for all these factions to put aside the past 50 years of fighting and realize everyone in the world would be better off, safer and happier without their bickering.

Man I'm getting really sick of people blaming Americans for all the problems in the world. As a Canadian living in Quebec you would think I would carry the same tone as some of "blame the U.S." posters. I would attempt to reply to some of naive statements made here but why bother. Democracies other than the US are guilty of a lot of their own errors in judgement. The U.S. may have made some mistakes but at least they are doing something.
I don't remember how this quote goes exactly but it's something like, "The hotest places in hell are reserved for those who when time calls for action remain and do nothing"

Thanks for the informative post, Abbadaba.

adelinser said: The U.S. may have made some mistakes but at least they are doing something.

It doesn't mater what you do so long as you do something, however wrong it may be? I disagree.

Originally posted by abbadaba

In this century, the breeding ground for this form of Islam is Saudi Arabia where it is taught in "religious" schools called "madrasahs." Unfortunately, for the past 30 years this hatred has been instilled in its youth but our leaders were too blinded by oil wealth to want to see it � our leaders looked the other way and pretended this was not happening so as not to "offend" the Saudi leaders whose hands were on the oil spigot. In fact, our leaders encouraged this fanaticism because in the cold war these warrior Muslims fought against the Russians in Afghanistan and the Russians were our enemies at that time.

Best quote of the week. I want to add one more point to that. Whatever US did in the past is not enough justification for killing 3,000 people in 9-11.

Blame goes both ways, even though US has helped arabs in the past, it doesn't mean US is married with arab cause. CIA helped the mujhadeens during the Afgan-Soviet war in the past , but now US has every right to flush Arabia down the toilet. Yes US built a monster, but why all the cry when US wants to slaughter the monster?

Xalex said: now US has every right to flush Arabia down the toilet. Yes US built a monster, but why all the cry when US wants to slaughter the monster?

How simplistic you are. GW would be proud to call you a comrade.