Thoughts on why skeptics are good for Ufology

Labeling oneself a skeptic is just as bad as labeling yourself a true believer. It says that you will not believe in Aliens or UFO's before you see the evidence. That is bad for everyone. Instead you should claim to have an open mind.

intrptr
reply to post by compressedFusion

 

Well written.

No skeptic would be convinced without solid proof.

My experience is No amount of proof will convince a skeptic.

By definition they're minds are made up. All people that claim to have seen one are "Beleebers", liars or nuts.

They nicely say "wheres the proof" but there is no proof as far as they are concerned. Until they see one and become part of the other camp that is. Then its not about belief.

But even then they may not be convinced. Even dismiss, ignore or deny it. For a lifetime they have insisted there is no such thing and they can't adjust that even when faced with it themselves.

I know. The people I was with that night argued back and forth about what we had just seen. Those arguments were fierce and even broke up friendships. I wanted to know, others wanted to forget about it. I wanted to talk about it, others wanted to remain silent.

It is a strong wall to breach to get over a life time of belief systems that can only think along one linear path.

Think about what it takes to deprogram people from religious cults, how hard a task that can be. We all have fixed thinking when it comes to certain subjects. That is why Plato's "Allegory of the Cave" and the Movie "The Matrix" are so compelling.

Very well said and I thank you!

I will soon leave this forum because of the grief received from the so called "Skeptics".

I would like to know why they post on a forum like this?

Could it be that they are here to just have fun or are they paid to block the exchange of information?

reply to post by wmd_2008


Ufology is a difficult subject and he cannot be blamed for getting a few facts wrong. It is not for want of trying. He deserves credit for his objectivity and his courageous defence against the mean spirited debunkers.

reply to post by compressedFusion


Neat thread. Thank you so much for your attention and replies to what people are saying. Thats nice.

I understand how you feel. I have read many of your posts while lurking. I only rarely pop up to say something. The fighting and disagreement is a symptom of the bigger problem. It's not just skepticism there is also fear. There is the fear of being different.

Not from me. I feel flattered. The only conclusion I can draw from directly observing various phenomenon over the course of my life is that paranormal and extraterrestrial events occur and witnesses are chosen by the entities or whatever you call them. This is obvious to me and I don't feel any fear as a result of that…

I feel that it is my responsibility to share these events instead of keeping them inside, which I have basically done my whole life until now, on the internet. I don't call it a mission or a need to convince others so much as just a put it out there for others to see and reflect upon. If they have had similar experiences then that may empower them to relate their story and that is a growing Tsunami these days. This I believe is the responsibility of the witnesses, to tell their tale and familiarize others who do fear and slowly bring about the acceptance level and thus the Paradigm shift from one of fear and witch hunting to a new level of awareness. Kind of the same thing happened when the powers that be finally admitted the world was not flat and everything didn't revolve around the earth.

I also don't go in for the multitude of videos on YouTube or the Mog from Zog believers (too funny WMD2008). All I in fact have is my own personal experience and thats it. I don't believe these events are supposed to be widely regarded anyway. Only those with the same sort of experience can relate and they know who they are. The rest of the world is going to ignore, deny and refute it as they always have done. It takes a personal encounter with the other realms to then know for a certainty.

When I said it was optimistic to regard skeptics as though they would or could change their minds that is what I meant. I have related personal experiences here in a number of places and not a one of them has anything to say either way directly to me. They make no observations or ask direct questions of any kind. This is because they have already decided in their own mind what category I belong in their "skepticism". They in fact have no interest in exploring peoples recounts to see if the person has credibility experience or qualifications as an observer or whether they are familiar with man made ariel phenomenon or not.

The skeptic is solid. He doesn't add to a thread or ask probing questions, he only challenges anything in a thread with, wheres the proof, or theres no proof.

There is no amount of proof that will convince a skeptic, I say again… no amount. (A play on the military radar response tracking the Alaskan UFO behind the 747 Jumbo jet.)

"Intermittent Primary return in trail… in trail, I say again…"

reply to post by wmd_2008

Well Stan the man got some FACTS wrong and to honest it was a total waste of time him being on here because we learned nothing new!!!

I keep out of those AMA's for that reason. Celebrities are main stream in my mind. They are the gate keepers.

EnPassant
reply to post by wmd_2008

 

Ufology is a difficult subject and he cannot be blamed for getting a few facts wrong. It is not for want of trying. He deserves credit for his objectivity and his courageous defence against the mean spirited debunkers.

Really because he avoided a few questions and seemed more concerned about talking about his books etc.

reply to post by waltwillis

I will soon leave this forum because of the grief received from the so called "Skeptics".

Before you do that, I would like to tell you something.

In intro threads some members will welcome newcomers to the site with "madhouse" and "fasten your seatbelt" and "grow armor "comments.

Now I'll say Welcome to ATS because you have just discovered why they say that.

This may sound trite or redundant but don't let some opinions get to you too much on here. This is the place you will find both extreme of science and "speculation". The experts in both fields are sometimes direct and abrasive . If you aren't familiar with that it can sting a little. The key is to let those comments wash over you like water off a ducks back.

I know easy to say, but I have found and you will too that if you stick it out a while this will affect you less and less. Strength of character is sometimes measured by walking away from the heat instead of joining in. When it really gets to you take a break and then come on back. The water is still fine…

after all thats why you came here, right?

reply to post by compressedFusion


My take on believers and skeptics lies within "The Law of One" material. If you are familiar with "The Law of One" then you will get what I'm about to put out there for consideration. This is my personal belief and is in no way spoken as factual evidence. So if it poses a question that you like awesome if not no ego bashing is warranted...

The Law of One states that in order to get back to the one true creator that we must experience everything and learn lessons of our choosing in order to move on to the next lesson. They key phrase is "our choosing" which is very powerful to understand. The Creator of love/light or God, Jesus whatever you believe in is not choosing this. You are, you have the free will. This means that every time your body dies on this plane of existence you go over the experiences and lessons learned with your guidance counselors (people chosen to help you move onward and upward think 3rd to 4th dimension etc) so to speak and move on spiritually or repeat the process until you are ready for the next step.

I think when it comes to skeptics that they chose not to believe in these things before being born on this plane (UFO's, ghosts, Bigfoot, etc.) In order for someone who chose to believe can't learn a lesson if there is no opposition to their thoughts and inner gut feelings. it's the yin yang of it, duality, or positive/negative.

The real question is are you less or more spiritually evolved at this point. That's my real mind bender. Maybe I'm way further along by having actual experiences with this realm as in UFO's and ghost etc. or maybe I'm at the infant level and these I've chosen to have these experiences so I can learn lessons of skepticism and ridicule. Or Maybe the skeptics are way more advanced and their purpose is solely to push the limits of my thoughts and how to understand that it's okay to admit that you are wrong/right.... think about it, if you've had an experience you know what I'm talking about, how hard is it to convince anyone, even loved ones will look at you differently.

If you think about what I've left for consideration I think it will resonate with a great deal of you...but which side does that make you now LOL.

reply to post by intrptr


Can you not see what you are saying?

You either MUST believe the same as me, as the same as me, have the same thoughts as me, have the same questions as me.....else you are a denier (only you put the word "skeptic" there, distorting what the word means).

You take an experience with a handful of people you know, and base their actions, thoughts and beliefs, and then apply them to literally BILLIONS of people that live on the face of this Earth.

Skepticism -wikipedia

Skepticism or scepticism (see American and British English spelling differences) is generally any questioning attitude towards knowledge, facts, or opinions/beliefs stated as facts,[1] or doubt regarding claims that are taken for granted elsewhere

Skepticism - Webster/Merriam Dictionary

an attitude of doubt or a disposition to incredulity either in general or toward a particular object

A true skeptic does not deny proof. What you are saying is this:

A person runs up to me and says: "I won the lottery!"
I'm skeptical of this unless I see evidence showing otherwise. The person shows me their winning lotto ticket. I look up the numbers for that day, and see that indeed that person had the winning numbers.

I do not then continue to "believe" or "deny" that the person did not win the lottery. I now KNOW that he has indeed won it.

I'm standing outside with my brother in law at night. He suddenly grabs my arm and exclaims: "What the hell is that?" pointing in the sky.
What we both see is a streak of light that lasts for a few seconds arcing across the sky, then disappears.
"You just saw a meteor." I tell him.
"For real?" he looks at me, skeptical of what I just said.
So I take him inside, show him videos of meteors streaking across the sky. I then give him eye witness testimony of the many times I have seen this with my own eyes while outside using my telescope, or taking my astrophotography pictures. I then show him some of my own pictures of meteors I've captured in images.

dual meteor tracks captured by me with my Canon Rebel EOS camera.


He thinks over everything I've said and shown him and accepts my explanation for what he saw.

Feb. 1991, standing watch in the lower CIC on board my ship in the first Gulf War. On the PPI scope showing the display of my radar system, the AN/SPS-48C 3D air search radar, I have a track moving in excess of Mach 2 towards ownship (us). I notify WEC (Weapons Engagement Controller). It's altitude is only 20,000 feet.
Suddenly, the track ceases all forward movement and simply sits there at 20,000 feet.....not moving. For 2 minutes.

Then, in less than 15 seconds (which is how long it takes the 48's antenna to do one revolution), it goes from 20,000 feet to 80,000 feet. Next paint of the sweep, the video for the track is gone (it's now above 100,000 feet, the limit of my radar system). After several sweeps, the DDC loose track and drops it.

I spent hours and hours in my radar system, checking the receiver out, running diagnostics on the DDC system, and on the AN/UYK-20 computer that was used to talk to the NTDS system......nothing. Not one thing wrong. Signal to noise ratio on my reciever was better than the required tolerances (hey, it was MY butt sitting in the middle of the Gulf, you better believe I was going to keep our eyes even better than military specs required!).

CO stopped by the radar room, as he'd heard about it. Asked if I'd found anything wrong. When I told him no, he just shrugged and grinned at me saying: "Well.....either it was 'little green men' or something WAY above either yours or my pay grade." and left.

As a skeptic do you know what I think? I think we saw something. It was there. It was not my equipment, and it was NOTHING that acted like any known aircraft, nor weapon that I knew of. I believe I actually saw the track of a UFO.

Do I believe it was aliens? That's one explanation......but pure speculation only.
Do I believe it was as my CO said: something way above even his paygrade? Again, that's a good explanation.....but also pure speculation.

The only thing that I do know for sure is: it was something unknown, unidentified, that did not act like anything that we know of.

And that wasn't the only time I saw something like that.

I'm a skeptic. I question everything. Yes I think UFOs exist. Way too many events that defy any type of explanation.
Do I believe they are aliens?

I believe that is one explanation...that is pure speculation at this time. If one lands and they step out saying "Hello" to the world, it might not be speculation anymore. But until then.....

Do I believe instead that it's Black Ops, Super Secret Ships from our Space Navy? My first thought is: We have a Space Navy? Hell....I wish someone had told me! I would have joined THAT one instead of the regular Navy.
My second thought would be: Well, it IS a explanation.......and again, pure speculation.

Unless the Earth is threatened by something and Obama comes out with a press conference and tells us that we have a Space Navy that is going to save our butts. Then, I would think it would not be speculation anymore.

I'm sorry that you have such hard feeling for those of us that would question things, or feel that even if a UFO landed and it turned out to be aliens coming out to say "Hi" that us skeptics would still not believe what you believe. Especially since that last part isn't true (skeptics want proof, yes. What better proof than a UFO that landed and said Hi to everyone?).

I'm sorry that there are members on here that insult you, make fun of you, etc, etc. I'll never do that to you. But then I'm me, and not everyone else.

And yes: as a skeptic, I DO read people's accounts of things.

Good post but you say-

eriktheawful
Do I believe it was aliens? That's one explanation......but pure speculation only.

I think it is more that pure speculation. There are strong arguments that they are aliens. Not conclusive but strong.

I was once a 'believer' by that I mean id read all the stories and consider them all real, id fit them in together to make them work... then I realized after a few decades that there was a problem, they couldn't all fit (and as the decades went by the stories got wilder and there where more of em), which meant a fair number of them where therefore simply made up. Id see videos and think nice thats genuine, then or should I say now so many are out there on Yoututbe and compared to the 80's and 90's theres just to damn many. They cant all be real and the ability to do convincing CGI on your home PC has as ive got my own experience with is all to common now.

So where once I was a believer, now im a skeptical believer. Not one that dismisses the subject entirely but one that uses a skeptic eye to ensure I know the truth or at least as close to it as possible with out being hoodwinked by people who take and abuse the 'believers' its all gotta be real or none of it would be mentality.

Ive seen odd things, but I still wont says yea or nay on any of it. Because you have to be honest, and none of us will know what we saw or believe in until they do in fact land on the White House lawn as they say.

That is simple immutable fact, one we cant simply ignore...

eriktheawful

*snip*

A true skeptic does not deny proof. What you are saying is this:

*snip*

Feb. 1991, standing watch in the lower CIC on board my ship in the first Gulf War. On the PPI scope showing the display of my radar system, the AN/SPS-48C 3D air search radar, I have a track moving in excess of Mach 2 towards ownship (us). I notify WEC (Weapons Engagement Controller). It's altitude is only 20,000 feet.
Suddenly, the track ceases all forward movement and simply sits there at 20,000 feet.....not moving. For 2 minutes.

Then, in less than 15 seconds (which is how long it takes the 48's antenna to do one revolution), it goes from 20,000 feet to 80,000 feet. Next paint of the sweep, the video for the track is gone (it's now above 100,000 feet, the limit of my radar system). After several sweeps, the DDC loose track and drops it.

I spent hours and hours in my radar system, checking the receiver out, running diagnostics on the DDC system, and on the AN/UYK-20 computer that was used to talk to the NTDS system......nothing. Not one thing wrong. Signal to noise ratio on my reciever was better than the required tolerances (hey, it was MY butt sitting in the middle of the Gulf, you better believe I was going to keep our eyes even better than military specs required!).

CO stopped by the radar room, as he'd heard about it. Asked if I'd found anything wrong. When I told him no, he just shrugged and grinned at me saying: "Well.....either it was 'little green men' or something WAY above either yours or my pay grade." and left.

As a skeptic do you know what I think? I think we saw something. It was there. It was not my equipment, and it was NOTHING that acted like any known aircraft, nor weapon that I knew of. I believe I actually saw the track of a UFO.

Do I believe it was aliens? That's one explanation......but pure speculation only.
Do I believe it was as my CO said: something way above even his paygrade? Again, that's a good explanation.....but also pure speculation.

*snip*

I believe that is one explanation...that is pure speculation at this time. If one lands and they step out saying "Hello" to the world, it might not be speculation anymore. But until then.....

*snip*

I'm sorry that you have such hard feeling for those of us that would question things, or feel that even if a UFO landed and it turned out to be aliens coming out to say "Hi" that us skeptics would still not believe what you believe. Especially since that last part isn't true (skeptics want proof, yes. What better proof than a UFO that landed and said Hi to everyone?).

I'm sorry that there are members on here that insult you, make fun of you, etc, etc. I'll never do that to you. But then I'm me, and not everyone else.

And yes: as a skeptic, I DO read people's accounts of things.

See how could believers dislike this guys methods... this guy is how everyone should conduct themselves when dealing with this subject. If your not then your opening yourself to deception by those who'd take advantage of you.

This subject most definitely must be approached with skepticism as there are too many opportunities for misidentification of natural phenomena and/or straight up hoaxes . I am an incredibly skeptical individual who over time has been converted into a "skeptical/knower" if you would kindly allow me to modify the categories.

A true skeptic always aggressively questions any evidence with rational intent. Yet, a skeptic is open to the truth whatever it may be regardless of one's initial assumptions.

A denier is the proverbial ostrich. He would refuse to acknowledge that water is wet if it would violate his belief system. Ufology is serious dilemma for a denier as the phenomena is one that seriously jacks with one's entire world view.

The believers are of two categories. The first is one who has properly vetted the evidence with skeptical intent and has arrived to a conclusion that UFOs are most likely real, yet has never personally experienced one first hand. The other believer is the Pollyanna type. This category of believer so wants to believe in the phenomena that he suspends all skepticism. In many ways, this type of believer is the inverse of a denier. They also are easily fooled by lenticular clouds, Sirius, etc...

So how did I end up as a "skeptical/knower"?

Many years ago when I was a teenager, my friend told me that he had a very close UFO encounter back in 1973 along with another friend. I remembered as a young boy that it was all over the news as there were many sitings in the area. (Google Hunter Army Airfield MPs being chased by UFO). I knew this friend to not be a liar and a straight up guy. I, being a skeptic, immediately went to the other friend and asked him to recount the event w/o letting him know I already knew about it. I was told the exact same story. Now, I had multiple independent sources all confirming a UFO event all so I became a skeptical/believer in that I had very good eyewitness descriptions that were all in agreement. About 10 years ago, I met yet another individual that saw the same disk shaped UFO, and he gave me an identical description again w/o me letting him know I knew anything. Basically, the thing was flying at low level all around the area.

Exactly three years ago, I personally witnessed a series of various types of craft that in no way can be explained with conventional technology. During this period of time, I read of others posting some similar UFO reports in my area too at the same time. I even got some brief video of a Black Triangle that proved to me that what I see a camera sees. It took me 3 days before I accepted it was a valid unknown. This was after witnessing a massive boomerang and two orbs.

The thing that made me accept the triangle was an unknown is that the FAA dictates, for good reason, that all aircraft MUST display navigational lighting. In this crowded airspace no sane pilot would operate an aircraft w/o navigation lights. For you TR3B promoters, please show me one with navigation lights, and then I will become a believer in the TR3B as it really may exist as a legitimate black project. However, it would have FAA navigation lights if it were operating in this airspace. I'm not an aviator, but I am a mariner. In my experience at night on the water having a red light on the port side and green light on the starboard side provides very valuable heading information to others at night so I can only assume the same thing applies to aviation.

Anyway, that is how I became a "skeptical/knower" that the phenomena is real. As for what exactly it represents, I can only speculate. For what it's worth, that's my two cents.

reply to post by eriktheawful


It has also been my experience that the more I respond to some the longer their responses get as though they are trying to bury their "Opponents" under the weight of their keyboard. Each post is picked apart and scrutinized for semantics. Posts get longer and longer until they stand alone atop of the thread, their opponents having vacated their end of the conversation. King of the Hill.

You will forgive, I don't understand why some seem to have endless time to spend on the internet and feel like they have to bash others into the internet basement. I've been at this today way too long and am working several threads concurrently, each has its "King" atop the heap whom I have challenged in some way and they will not relent until they win…

However your post is easy and compelling for you finally gave me something to chew on: "your" experience.

But, first of all…

You take an experience with a handful of people you know, and base their actions, thoughts and beliefs, and then apply them to literally BILLIONS of people that live on the face of this Earth.

Plural experiences, not just one of extraterrestrial and spirit encounters over 50 plus years of life. With numerous people some known, some strangers. I don't apply this to everyone of course, everyone has not seen what I have (billions, lol) . Who's exaggerating? Is that the scientific skeptic or the doubter?

The lottery and meteors are poor examples for exacting proof from in order to believe it. Besides, the lottery is a scam, I don't believe in it. (humor off)

NOW…

This experience you relate is yours? Forgive me for not remembering where I have read this account before, it is very familiar. Was it here on ATS, has it been published elsewhere? Maybe you could point that out for me if you would. I would like to see it as I am sure I have seen it written somewhere before.

And if yours, may I ask, the target you painted was as you say at twenty thousand feet? What range from the ship was it, you left that part out. Was there any other secondary confirmation of this from your ship like a watchmen on deck or another ship or plane? The reason I ask is that without eyes on and without corroboration it is hard in my own mind not to dismiss this "sighting" (which it wasn't) as a glitch in the machine caused by… whatever.

As well I could conceivably interpret your radars anomaly as an incoming meteor fireball that came in and broke up in an explosive burst which dissipated, the upward seeming motion to be the back track of the vaporous trail which condensed in the atmosphere generating a return of dust and fragments and also dissipated, apparently appearing and disappearing from your radar screen.

Thats my debunk analysis not any skepticism on my part.

Thanks for sharing by the way, very compelling. I await your reply. My response may not be till much later or tomorrow. The real world is calling.

reply to post by waltwillis

I would like to know why they post on a forum like this?

Could it be that they are here to just have fun or are they paid to block the exchange of information?

Or could it be that they started out as believers and found that belief wasn't enough , perhaps the reason they are still here is the hope that one day something will be posted that will stand up to scrutiny and point to actual ET visitation.

gortex
reply to post by waltwillis

 

I would like to know why they post on a forum like this?

Could it be that they are here to just have fun or are they paid to block the exchange of information?

Or could it be that they started out as believers and found that belief wasn't enough , perhaps the reason they are still here is the hope that one day something will be posted that will stand up to scrutiny and point to actual ET visitation.

Or that they simply enjoy discussing the subject, as the "believers" do.

thesearchfortruth

gortex
reply to post by waltwillis

 

I would like to know why they post on a forum like this?

Could it be that they are here to just have fun or are they paid to block the exchange of information?

Or could it be that they started out as believers and found that belief wasn't enough , perhaps the reason they are still here is the hope that one day something will be posted that will stand up to scrutiny and point to actual ET visitation.

Or that they simply enjoy discussing the subject, as the "believers" do.

I don't know why others are here, but the reason I am here is to find others like myself that know aliens are real and here and to exchange information with them...Not the hoaxers or jokers.

reply to post by intrptr


I work from home, so access here is easy. My work has me on the computer all day long. Taking a break to pop into ATS is quite easy too.
I type quite fast.

However, I don't try to "bury" people with my post. Sometimes I simply have a lot to say, so I say it.

As for that incident, I've related it here on ATS before, a year ago? Maybe more, no idea what thread I posted it in.

The target was somewhere between 40 and 45 miles out from ownship. The only other ship in the area was the USS Nicholas, a FFG. The only air search they had was the AN/SPS-49 radar, and it's not really for air search, heh.
However, tied into the NTDS system, they could have seen it, though we were busy being tanker king and directing air traffic. The Nicholas is a ASU platform (Anti Sub), my ship, USS MacDonough was a guided missile destroyer and a AAW platform (Anti Air).
Lookouts: the only air targets they will see are slow craft or helicopters. They are mostly there to watch for mines or someone who slipped overboard.

Was it a "ghost in the machine"?

The DDC system tracks video that the radar's receiver provides. Three solid hits and it will automatically start tracking targets as long as they are moving. If something stops moving, the DDC will drop track after a certain amount of time, unless you tell it to keep tracking that video.
So it was not the DDC system. There was a target being painted.

Now, a receiver can have noise, and that noise can be seen as a valid target, if the noise is strong enough. However, when that happens, you have all sorts of in indications that this is the case. First, your screen is going to look like crap (or like you've turned it to Raw Video, in which case you can actually see the weather). Processed video is cleaned up so that only strong returns give you a valid target (so you're not trying to track a cloud.....or vapor). The receiver's signal to noise ratio was clean.

I did think of the possibility of refraction. We can manually adjust the refraction for the radar based on temps and humidity of the air.
However, if it had been, all the other air craft we were tracking would have been affected by that. Their positions were exactly where they were suppose to be.

Could it still have been something in the equipment? Absolutely. It could have been something that I missed. The whole thing lasted less than 5 minutes.
Could it have been some other natural thing that simply confused my radar? That's always a possibility too.

You do realize that you've swapped places with me? You are now the one who is skeptical, asking questions, and all I have is my eyewitness testimony. However, you concur that something may have happened.....or it may have been something completely mundane.

You just posted like I would....as a skeptic.



See? We're not all jerks.

reply to post by eriktheawful


eriktheawful,

I have a very large social network and people tend to open up to me for some reason. I have another friend whose father was highly involved with running radar in Europe in the 60's during the Cold War. He related to my friend and his brother of a number of instances where they tracked objects doing things that were physically impossible with our technology. Also, this particular friend is a major denier of this phenomena. Some people react by denying as this subject is somewhat controversial to say the least.

Also to throw some extra spice into this thread. I also knew someone(R.I.P) that worked at NASA in the 60s and 70s and word on the floor was that the UFO tales that come from that quarter are true. Also, this individual was a very trustworthy and intelligent person.

Something is going on here that is way beyond our level of understanding is all that I know. I find this subject to be the ultimate puzzle.

reply to post by eriktheawful

You just posted like I would….as a skeptic.

No, as a debunker. What about the meteor bollide I suggested? Could a plasma trail with bits of metal and dust create a return after water condenses on it? if an object like a meteor entered the atmosphere and exploded that could create a "sudden stop and hover" on radar? That appears to be the most radical move displayed by the "object".

Your computer was capable of printing out the track, did you attempt to save a copy? Have you drawn up a representation of that from memory? Was is there one other person in that CIC that also saw it at the time? Wheres he? How come you didn't report it to Mufon or such an agency?

Proof, man proof. Otherwise you have just a tale… which you continue to go on and on about. I wasn't there, I don't know what you say you saw and can't accept it without something tangible. Other stories at least have some corroboration…

sorry about that.

Please respond.

intrptr
reply to post by eriktheawful

 

You just posted like I would….as a skeptic.

No, as a debunker. What about the meteor bollide I suggested? Could a plasma trail with bits of metal and dust create a return after water condenses on it? if an object like a meteor entered the atmosphere and exploded that could create a "sudden stop and hover" on radar? That appears to be the most radical move displayed by the "object".

Your computer was capable of printing out the track, did you attempt to save a copy? Have you drawn up a representation of that from memory? Was is there one other person in that CIC that also saw it at the time? Wheres he? How come you didn't report it to Mufon or such an agency?

Proof, man proof. Otherwise you have just a tale… which you continue to go on and on about. I wasn't there, I don't know what you say you saw and can't accept it without something tangible. Other stories at least have some corroboration…

sorry about that.

Please respond.

Resolution of the AN/SPS-48C is for objects only slightly bigger than a basketball or larger. Things like dust, clouds, chaff, etc will still give a return, but is treated like weather by the tracking part of the radar when it is processing the video. It can track things up to Mach 6, 100,000 feet of altitude, max distance of 220 miles, minimum distance about 1.2 miles.

There is no printer hooked up to that version of the 48. The computer system that runs the radar, was made up of 6 cabinets (we called them bays), each one about 6 feet tall, 2 1/2 feet wide and about 10 inches thick. It's memory and programming was "hard wired" in as a diode matrix (no chips). Computer read out was banks of red LEDs that represented certain registers, used for troubleshooting only.

The newer version, the 48E had a computer display from what I understand, and basically did the troubleshooting for you. Other than the antenna however, the guts of that system were completely different from my version.

So there was no "computer print out" of anything.

Yes other people in CIC saw it. All tracks, especially if they are not sqwuaking IFF, are watched. Weapons were Red and Tight at that time as we'd entered the shooting part of the Gulf War at that time. However, I have no idea where any of those people are. You're talking about 1991 which was 23 years ago. I don't attend ship reunions.

Report to Mufon? While in the middle of the Persian Gulf? At war? A little hard to do. By the end of March, we were back home in Charleston....incident pretty much forgotten. We had a lot of other things on our mind, such as watching for mines, or keeping an eye out for missiles from Iran if they had decided to join in. The whole thing at that point was just another sea story. Us sailors have lots of 'em.

BTW - I've only recounted this story twice on here....not "gone on and on" about it. The only reason I've said as much about it in this thread is, you asked me questions and I've given answers.

You made some broad and sweeping statements about skeptics. One of which is how they completely discount witness testimony without any proof automatically, never read people's accounts, etc. That's simply not true of everyone that is a skeptic.

Debunking is simply what one does when they think of or find alternative explanations that are ordinary in nature, to an extraordinary event, photo, video, witness testimony. It's a tool or activity.

I've seen here on ATS how the terms for things get thrown around, and some are misused. The biggest one is "Skeptic = Denier" or "Debunker = Denier"

The truth is, there are 3 categories of people:

Believer......Skeptic.......Denier. With Skeptic being the broader term, as you can have someone that believes most of what they see, and only skeptical about a few....all the way to those that accept only hand full of cases and deny all the rest.

A "Debunker" is anyone using critical thinking. When someone asks questions, points out conflicts or problems with someone's story, photo, video, they are "debunking" something. It's an activity, not a class of people.

My entire point in this thread is: It is not a simple "Us vs. Them" as many people seem to think. It is a LOT more complex and has several levels or categories.