Police video of killing an illegal camper.

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by jude11

 

I have to agree with no reason here, really. Absolutely none. They were laid back in appearance and so was he, until he turned his back and started getting whatever he was getting of his personal stuff. Then they raised rifles (without him being aware of it) and dropped a flash bang on him.

They were yelling...but was he hearing much? Those are meant to stun you silly for a few seconds. Gee...what if it worked? (sigh)

A couple of points to make here. Try and put yourself in a police officers shoes:

-Suspect reaches for/into his bag. You don't know what he is reaching for

-Suspect starts moving towards you after reaching in/for his bag. He could have anything in his hand at this point, and the threat level has just gone up. Would you raise your weapon? Standard police procedure to at least make sure you have a bead on the guy at this point, incase he has something that could threaten your life or someone elses (or his own)

-Command is given to throw a flashbang. Instead of listening to the commands of the officers to get down on the ground, the suspect now clearly has a knife in his hand, and is brandishing it. Threat level goes up again

-After ignoring commands from the officer, suspect is approached by both a dog and an officer. Suspect moves towards both and raises his arm (that is carrying the knife). Threat level goes up again

-The officer closest to the suspect now has two choices: Fire on the suspect with his weapon which is already drawn and in position, or safely disengage his weapon from the suspect, reach for non-lethal means of subduing the suspect, and use said means against the suspect.

Given the range from the suspect to the officer, do you feel YOU would have had enough time to do all of that before the suspect was able to close the gap between you and him and stab you?



No, I'm not a jackbooted thug, no, I don't support police brutality or EVER shooting someone if there are other options available. But in this situation, I can honestly say I might have done the exact same thing as the first officer to fire did.

reply to post by 727Sky


These shootings are really are getting out of control. I didn't see him become aggressive. He didn't comply with their "get on the ground" commands after the flash bang went off next to his face, but would one even be able to hear those commands? Love how the article says the police fired ONE shot...I thought I heard three or four.

According to the Las Cruces Sun-News, the still unidentified man is in critical condition. I really hope he pulls through.

According to Eden, officers arrived at the foothills after receiving a suspicious person call. He says when officers arrived, the man, who has not been named, threatened the officers' lives.

Eden says "less-than-lethal force" was used to calm the man but an officer eventually fired one shot.

The name of the officer in the shooting has not been released.

The shooting comes as Albuquerque police is under a U.S. Justice Department investigation over allegations of excessive force and three dozen shootings since 2010

Las Cruces Sun-Times

ETA this: Albuquerque Police Chief: SIX Shots Fired At Suspect

How they initially reported it as one shot, when in reality it was SIX, is beyond me...

reply to post by Sremmos80

My mistake, they say at least one round hit him..

At least one live round hit the man, but the Office of the Medical Investigator has not determined what killed the man, Eden said. Eden said officers decided to use less-than-lethal force, including bean bag rounds, because the man picked up his backpack and said he was coming off the mountain.

www.abqjournal.com...

DeadSeraph
reply to post by 727Sky

 

I would suggest anyone watching this video and finds themselves being given a command to get on the ground by an armed member of the local yokels drop whatever you are doing and do as commanded...

That is usually the sensical thing to do. As opposed to, you know... brandishing your knife against armed police? The guy clearly assumes an aggressive posture and raises his arm up (the one he's holding his knife with) as if he's going to stab either the dog or the officer approaching him. Sucks he got shot, but if I have multiple police officers pointing assault rifles at me screaming at me to get down on the ground, chances are I'm going to comply unless I actually want to get shot.

edit on 22-3-2014 by DeadSeraph because: (no reason given)

Isnt that what taser are for?

extremely cowardly to shoot a guy in that situation, then again being a cop is extremely cowardly when your job entails assaulting the Bill of Rights as part of your daily duties

DeadSeraph

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by jude11

 

I have to agree with no reason here, really. Absolutely none. They were laid back in appearance and so was he, until he turned his back and started getting whatever he was getting of his personal stuff. Then they raised rifles (without him being aware of it) and dropped a flash bang on him.

They were yelling...but was he hearing much? Those are meant to stun you silly for a few seconds. Gee...what if it worked? (sigh)

A couple of points to make here. Try and put yourself in a police officers shoes:

-Suspect reaches for/into his bag. You don't know what he is reaching for

-Suspect starts moving towards you after reaching in/for his bag. He could have anything in his hand at this point, and the threat level has just gone up. Would you raise your weapon? Standard police procedure to at least make sure you have a bead on the guy at this point, incase he has something that could threaten your life or someone elses (or his own)

-Command is given to throw a flashbang. Instead of listening to the commands of the officers to get down on the ground, the suspect now clearly has a knife in his hand, and is brandishing it. Threat level goes up again

-After ignoring commands from the officer, suspect is approached by both a dog and an officer. Suspect moves towards both and raises his arm (that is carrying the knife). Threat level goes up again

-The officer closest to the suspect now has two choices: Fire on the suspect with his weapon which is already drawn and in position, or safely disengage his weapon from the suspect, reach for non-lethal means of subduing the suspect, and use said means against the suspect.

Given the range from the suspect to the officer, do you feel YOU would have had enough time to do all of that before the suspect was able to close the gap between you and him and stab you?

No, I'm not a jackbooted thug, no, I don't support police brutality or EVER shooting someone if there are other options available. But in this situation, I can honestly say I might have done the exact same thing as the first officer to fire did.

Total paranoia.

This is NOT a warzone officers! Every damned person on the street, sidewalk or in the forest doesn't have the thought of killing you in mind. Is this person a known violent offender? Why would you send a dog at the guy? Do you think if a furry ball of teeth was coming at you that you would put a knife between you and those teeth? I sure as hell would and you are lying to yourself if you say you wouldn't especially after being disoriented by a flash bang. The freeking guy probably couldn't hear # after that.

Plain murder... really they shot the guy to save their attack dog and that is point blank.

Every shooting of a citizen should be followed up by a DOJ investigation and any cop who coldly kills someone should not be a cop anymore... good shoot, carry on, kill another has to stop. Unless that guy could professionally throw a knife like a superhero, they were not in danger enough to kill this individual.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


You can also add that the cops were briefed on his previous misdemeanors, including two assaults on police officers in the past, amongst other things.

Also seems he was mentally ill.

m.koat.com...
www.abqjournal.com...

Helious
reply to post by 727Sky

 

What we have in America today is not governance, it is tyranny, plain and simple. The fact is that it is compartmentalized and even the average US Senator is unaware of what is actually happening. The agenda does not come down from congress, it comes from the shadow federal government, the DHS and the people who have systematically ensured our police force is militarized over the latter part of the last decade.

They will shoot you, your dog, your kids, without fear of prosecution or reprisal and will do so with the knowledge they will almost always at worst only lose their job. There is no recourse outside of monetary which is pointless because the taxpayers pick up the tab for the lawsuits.
-- snip --

Looking more all the time like we can justifiably shorten it to feral government.

Kick in my door and shoot my dog before you realize you have the wrong address and I'm pretty much 100% a dead man...

Link

Peter Kraska, a professor at Eastern Kentucky University’s School of Justice Studies, estimates that SWAT teams were deployed about 3,000 times in 1980 but are now used around 50,000 times a year. Some cities use them for routine patrols in high-crime areas. Baltimore and Dallas have used them to break up poker games. In 2010 New Haven, Connecticut sent a SWAT team to a bar suspected of serving under-age drinkers. That same year heavily-armed police raided barber shops around Orlando, Florida; they said they were hunting for guns and drugs but ended up arresting 34 people for “barbering without a licence”.

AlphaHawk
reply to post by DeadSeraph

 

You can also add that the cops were briefed on his previous misdemeanors, including two assaults on police officers in the past, amongst other things.

Also seems he was mentally ill.

m.koat.com...
www.abqjournal.com...

So it is fine to skip all non lethal? The less then lethal they choose to use is damn near lethal if they hit right
I also am not sold that bean bags were used (ETA: see the shotgun with the yellow tape so bean bag present)
That officer is also the furthest back after the flash bang is used, while the other 3 charged almost blocking what shot he would have...
Where was the taser/ pepper spray??? Also the perp was walking with them with all his personal belongings in his hand, he didn't reach for anything until AFTER he was flashed. He drops his gear and then you see him reach and put his arm up

Oh and if more then 1 live round was fired then they are terrible shots to top this off...

reply to post by DeadSeraph


Maybe I am blind, or my idea of "brandishing" differs from yours but I didn't really think the guy was an immediate threat, especially after the flash bang went off next to his face. Why use THAT much force (six shots) almost immediately after the flash bang? He was stunned, then they just open fire.

Maybe they didn't understand how to properly use that type of non-lethal equipment, so they just went back to what they know will work and went to town.

There's isn't a good reason for what they ultimately did. It's sick, twisted, and just plain messed up.

So they were looking for him, wonder what he did that was rating a suspicious person call.

reply to post by Sremmos80


Never said it was fine, just adding the facts here.

Changes the reality here from just an illegal camper to unstable man with a history of violence.

reply to post by infolurker

Total paranoia.

This is NOT a warzone officers! Every damned person on the street, sidewalk or in the forest doesn't have the thought of killing you in mind. Is this person a known violent offender?

Do you know that he wasn't? Maybe the police did?

Why would you send a dog at the guy? Do you think if a furry ball of teeth was coming at you that you would put a knife between you and those teeth? I sure as hell would and you are lying to yourself if you say you wouldn't especially after being disoriented by a flash bang. The freeking guy probably couldn't hear # after that.

A dog taking him down is certainly better than risking your own life to do so, and certainly better than shooting the guy outright. The fact they let the dog go shows in itself they had no intention to kill him. As for the flashbang, he wasn't complying before and he wasn't complying after.

Plain murder... really they shot the guy to save their attack dog and that is point blank.

Not murder at all. You just see it that way because you are biased. They didn't shoot him to save the dog, they shot him because he brandished a knife and came at the closest officer after refusing to get on the ground.

Every shooting of a citizen should be followed up by a DOJ investigation and any cop who coldly kills someone should not be a cop anymore... good shoot, carry on, kill another has to stop.

I agree that every shooting should be followed up by an investigation. It usually is, but the system is currently flawed and there isn't enough impartiality in the process.

As for Cops not being cops after such a situation, if they are shown to have been negligent in the line of duty and displayed police brutality or willfully shot someone that did not pose a threat to them or others (or themselves), then yes... They should be relieved of duty and even face charges like anyone else. In cases where police are forced to shoot an assailant and are justified in doing so however, there is no reason to remove them from duty unless they suffer PTSD as a result.

The kneejerk reaction around here is always that the cops did it on purpose and they like doing it. I don't know if you have ever known a cop that has shot someone in the line of duty, but I did. He felt guilty about it every day for the rest of his life and always told me and my dad (he was a friend of my dads) that he thought about it every day and wondered if there was something he could have done differently. He didn't want to kill anybody.

lovebeck
reply to post by 727Sky

 

These shootings are really are getting out of control. I didn't see him become aggressive. He didn't comply with their "get on the ground" commands after the flash bang went off next to his face, but would one even be able to hear those commands? Love how the article says the police fired ONE shot...I thought I heard three or four.

According to the Las Cruces Sun-News, the still unidentified man is in critical condition. I really hope he pulls through.

According to Eden, officers arrived at the foothills after receiving a suspicious person call. He says when officers arrived, the man, who has not been named, threatened the officers' lives.

Eden says "less-than-lethal force" was used to calm the man but an officer eventually fired one shot.

The name of the officer in the shooting has not been released.

The shooting comes as Albuquerque police is under a U.S. Justice Department investigation over allegations of excessive force and three dozen shootings since 2010

Las Cruces Sun-Times

ETA this: Albuquerque Police Chief: SIX Shots Fired At Suspect

How they initially reported it as one shot, when in reality it was SIX, is beyond me...

edit on 22-3-2014 by lovebeck because: (no reason given)

Eden says "less-than-lethal force" was used to calm the man but an officer eventually fired one shot.

I never knew a flash bang was a "calmer round"? Learn something everyday... Thank you for finding the additional info on the incident.. I guess the bullets were flying so fast that to someone it sounded like a single shot to the guys counting or writing the article... Just goes to show you witnesses are not good and every cop should be required to wear a camera without an off switch....

AlphaHawk
reply to post by Sremmos80

 

Never said it was fine, just adding the facts here.

Changes the reality here from just an illegal camper to unstable man with a history of violence.

Seemed like you were using it to justify the shooting since you told dead to add it to his scenario where shooting the guy really was just the last option these 4 guys in fear for their lives could do against this one man army with a knife

reply to post by CornShucker

Looking more all the time like we can justifiably shorten it to feral government.

Kick in my door and shoot my dog before you realize you have the wrong address and I'm pretty much 100% a dead man...

I agree. It goes beyond that though. All one has to do is watch an episode of cops where they arrest somebody, take them to jail and make them go through the court process because they didn't like their attitude or demeanor. Now granted, I am not oblivious to all of the ass hats that make the job of the average police officer hell and I know they have to deal with all kinds of idiots every day and I understand how easy it is to become intolerant.

With that said, it is not my problem that those people exist and won't tolerate that as an excuse for the mistreatment of others nor the robbing of their civil liberties. I don't exactly love my job either but it doesn't give me cause to perform it in a perverse and irresponsible way and then blame my victims for the transgressions of others I have dealt with. The time for accountability is now and if it isn't taken care of on the state and county level we are soon to see something else happen because Americans are at an all time low in government confidence and "oversights" by law enforcement are the most prevalent.

Every person, badge or not is and should be accountable for their own actions, hiding behind a badge, taxpayer money and the union has protected these wrongful executions thus far but it is ripe for change, not only needed but demanded. It is time to start calling civil employees servants again and stop referring to them as "authorities". They are no different than anyone else outside of the mandate to serve the community they work in. Cases on any of them that abuse their civil duties, period.

reply to post by DeadSeraph

As for the flashbang, he wasn't complying before and he wasn't complying after.

Again what video were you watching?!
He was complying, he had just finished picking up his stuff, his hands were full. He didn't even have the knife out until after the flashbang. You can see him throw the rest of this gear to the ground and then pull something with his hand. AFTER they flash him and aggravate him.

Here is the problem...Even if the guy had a knife, and was planning on using it upon any approaching officers, does this authorize the use of deadly force? First of all, intentions and actions are two completely different things, and unless the police are psychic, they cannot actually know what someone's intentions are. However, if one is holding a knife, one is likely to assume that he is doing so because he wants to use it. I will give them that.

But don't they make tazers for just this reason? I could understand shooting someone who was a threat to you at a distance, someone with a firearm, but someone with a knife who is not making any movements towards you, does not seem to be a threat, unless he starts closing in. Or he may be a threat, but not a threat that justifies the use of deadly force. I mean for goodness sake, THIS is why they make less than lethal ammunition, tazers, etc...

But then the question arises whether the guy was in his right to be standing there with a knife in the first place. If I was standing there with a knife, and was doing nothing wrong, breaking no laws, I would get pretty mad that the police ran up on me and started violating my rights. And I would consider that a violation of my rights, because I have done nothing wrong.

I guess I should say that I don't know the particulars, so it is difficult for me to say exactly, but I stand by my statement that the use of deadly force does not seem authorized. And what is with this blotting out of the shooting? Was that done by the police? If so, that looks highly suspicious, and would allow them to claim just about anything. IF the guy did make a move or something, there would be a split second where we would be able to see that, but before they shot him. So if they did this, why is that part cut out? But I suppose it could have been the media outlet that censored it as well.

reply to post by JiggyPotamus


The man is in open territory that demands a knife for basic survival. There was no cause for him to be shot. It was an execution and it was perverse. The cops in that video were spineless cowards who couldn't wait to use their weapon.

Don't mistake what happened in that video as needed for safety or anything else, it was murder, cold blooded, unjustified murder.

Boyd was arguing with police for more three hours last Sunday in the foothills after officers went to talk to him about illegally camping in open space.

“I’m almost going to kill you right now. Don’t give me another directive. Don’t attempt to give me, the Department of Defense, another directive,” said Boyd at the beginning of the incident.

As the hours passed, Chief Eden said an APD Crisis Intervention Team officer and a State Police liaison were called to the scene. Both attempted to speak with Boyd, however, Chief Eden says Boyd continued to threaten officers with death. Police also discovered that Boyd had a violent 20-year criminal history that included multiple incidents of violence against officers. Boyd’s history also showed years of mental health related concerns.

Given his history and the fact that he was threatening officers and then pulled out two knives I can kinda see why they shot him. They chucked a flashbang, shot him with bean bags and apparently a tazer, and he went for the K9 officer.

“Actually if you watch the video tape, all the less than lethal devices were in fact deployed. It was when the canine officer was down directing the canine dog that the suspect pulled out the two knives and directed a threat to the canine officer who had no weapons drawn. He was handling the dog,” Chief Eden said.

All that being said the video is rather chilling and I think highlights that we need some other less lethal measures to subdue people like this. Perhaps time... Seriously with something like this, out in the middle of freaking nowhere where the guy is only a threat to himself until officers get close it just seems like starving him out or waiting until he fell asleep or something would be safer for everyone involved. He's not going anywhere. I don't mind my tax dollars paying some overtime if it means avoiding this sort of awful ending.

I really would like to see some studies go into situations like these and the most effective mix of less lethal realized with a backup cop with an AR.

I don't think anyone set out to murder this guy. I don't think any of them wanted to kill him or hurt him. They wouldn't take so long, call in a crisis team and whatnot. I do think there were better options.

Link

reply to post by 727Sky


These kind of sociopaths are making it more and more dangerous for the good cops. You know, the kind that rescue people and show up on the scene to work things out without anybody getting hurt.

The types of cops in the video make people afraid. When people are afraid, they get dangerous. If the citizens get pushed too far, they'll start shooting back and doing so with less and less provocation. Eventually, good cops are going to start getting shot just for approaching a scared civilian.

If I were a cop, I would try to lead the charge against this kind of behavior because, in the long run, it would save my life. No decent cop wants a society who is afraid of them.