If you don't believe all the bible, why believe any of it?

SpaceGoatFarts

Without a belief in the OT who is Jesus...not a predicted arrival the proof being in the fulfilment, just some guy. Pointless.

A great mystic. Doesn't make his teachings less relevant. Sorry if you think he has to be a messiah for his message to be relevant. Furthermore I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want to be worshiped.

Well, I didn't say that did I! I was addressing Christians not just someone who believes Jesus was "a great mystic".

I said those persons out there calling themselves Christian but not believing in parts of the bible like the OT (specified response to the person I replied to) makes little sense.

That would mean the Jews were not ever chosen and there was not a messiah expected so why would they build a belief in the christian messiah..clearly makes little sense.

I whole heartily agree with you, Jesus would not be thrilled with the worship and idol kissing going on his name.

reply to post by SpaceGoatFarts

Starr for you ...You are much deeper than you avatar name would suggest :>)

the2ofusr1
reply to post by Krazysh0t

 

I wasn't taking a jab at you and sorry if that is the way it came off ..Going by Catholic doctrine they say that as a baby when you are christened you become a Catholic and it really has nothing to do with believing so I cant see how that could apply to someone who has matured enough to make their own decisions about weather to believe there is a God or not ....peace

So when I was 15 and a believer that didn't count because I hadn't matured enough to make a mature decision on god's existence or not?

Easy question. I can believe the New Testament, as I believe it comes from writings of those who were around Jesus at the time. That does not require me to believe every part of the New Testament, but it hits a good balance from a historical point as well as the metaphorical point.

The Old Testament, however, is a completely made up story. I need only say that a human never lived inside of a whale for three days. Or three minutes.

Overall, the Bible has very little influence in my faith, just as religion and church has very little influence on my faith, if any at all.

I'm a Christian who don't believe the whole Bible.


I don't just choose things to believe. I base my choice on scientific facts, world statistics, and to a smaller degree - conspiracy theories.

That means:

- I still doubt the character of Jesus, but
- I believe the logic of His teachings, it's quite amazing how world statistics and scientific facts accurately mirror the things Jesus called evil - organized religion, money(and the system behind it). I think many of you including atheists will agree with this one. Ironically, Jesus promoted His logic/teachings much more than Himself that it's possible for those who might be doing His Works of mercy (in the Gospels) even if they don't believe in a God to go to heaven!

- I regard apostle Paul as the great liar. The exact opposite of Jesus - many of Paul's teachings could not hold up to real life. Paul was more concerned by the character of Jesus than His Words. They were of more mystical and occult in nature than scientific. I don't believe Paul's teachings because if they were true, that means dead babies go to hell because Paul requires declaration of the name of Jesus to be saved.

- I regard the Old Testament as a non-Christian material in the Bible. Very likely Judaism or Zionism material, again, with many teachings that are contrary to the teachings of Jesus.

reply to post by Krazysh0t

Not sure of your experience and really can only attest to my own .Aside from needing to expunge from my own mind false concepts about God (still don't know where they came from ) I dug into the word and relied on it's author to teach me .It's a different way then some come to understand it but it's the path I have been on ...

reply to post by the2ofusr1


To a nonbeliever it seems as if your saying people read the bible and let there imagination run wild. That seems crazy illogical. Why would a profound truth found while reading the bible be any better then the profound statements in sun tzu. Or the great philosophers.

While I understand where the OP's original question is coming from, "Christians" is a very vague term considering we all know there are various branches of Christianity that believe and teach different things. I have had this debate with people as well. The Old Testament and New Testament are unified for a reason. I guess the only rational explanation for those who don't include The Old Testament in Christian teachings is because Christians, people who not only believe in God but believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ, disregard The Old Testament since it was written approximately 100 years or more before the birth of Christ and doesn't include him.

The Old Testament is really quite complementary to the New Testament. It's is an account of the people, their history, as well as the foundation of God's teachings, while The New Testament focuses on a person, Jesus Christ, his life, and the history of the Church. Most of us are knowledgable to the fact the Bible and it's contents have been altered throughout history, but the standard Bible that most people think of and/or own, still contain both Testaments and many of the books that a number of various Christians intentionally ignore. Some branches do have modified versions that leave out certain books.

Personally, I don't care what others believe in or what religion they practice or what books they do or don't ignore. Whatever makes you a better person is fine with me. I look at religious texts in the same way I look at fairy tales, fables, and parables. They are stories that typically feature moral teachings, many of which are fictional and involve some form fantasy. They are like legends, which generally involve belief in the veracity of the events described, the way demons are still believed in some cultures. I don't mean that in a demeaning or offensive way.

From birth to seven years old, I was casually exposed to a nondenominational Christian church, from seven to seventeen I lived with my grandmother and was quite involved with the Catholic Church and it's teachings. From seventeen to my early twenties I was on a quest to find a religion I could believe in. I studied nearly a dozen other religions, from Mormonism to Scientology to Satanism, researched and wrote papers for school on Buddhism, as well as Islam. If I learned anything during my search I learned that like most everything in life, religions are not perfect. They all have flaws, some more than others, but the intentions of religion is for the betterment of individuals.

While I never found a religion for myself, I see how they are often helpful to people, however my biggest issue with Christianity is the imposing of their beliefs on others. Trying to convert or make others believe when it's unprovoked is not only annoying, it's incredibly egotistical to think that their religion and their God is the "right" one. The question of whether there even is or isn't a God is irrelevant to me since neither side is capable of proving or disproving it. I lean a bit towards probably not, so if you'd have to put a label on me you'd probably categorize me as atheist agnostic. The things is I've never felt as comfortable and complete as I do since I came to the conclusion that there likely isn't a higher power and it really doesn't matter to me if there is or isn't.

In the end, whether Christians believes in the whole Bible or just parts, it probably doesn't directly affect your life in any way.

ArtemisE


This is for those Christians who don't believe in the literal truth of creation and the bible. But do believe and concierge them selves Christians.

How do you decide what to believe and what not to? To an atheist it looks like cherry picking what people wish were true. While ignoring the things you don't agree with. It seems to me that almost every Christian as a nearly completely different take on what all consider to absolute truth. Logically how can any truth be found when no one even agrees on the fundamentals?

Good question. The old testament is made of two versions - one was commissioned by a king in what is now northern Israel. The other was commissioned in the south of Israel. These two versions were later collated into one book.

Throughout the writing many things were added and subtracted. It would be disingenuous to think that the text has not suffered corruption by way of Chinese whispers and distortions of all kinds and all kinds of propaganda.

But there are themes in the bible that strike me as important. Moral and spiritual themes such as you will find in the Psalms and Proverbs and other parts of the book. Judaism was an oasis of morality in a very corrupt world and I believe that this is because God inspired the Jews. But the original revelation is almost lost and what we have now is only an echo of what was originally written or said.

There is background of holiness and goodness in the bible that I believe comes from God and this is enough for me.

But much has been written since by saints and mystics in both Catholicism and Judaic mysticism which shows that revelation is ongoing. We have been told all we need to know about God's Will and there is no need to depend on one source any more.

reply to post by ArtemisE


I say some literature speaks differently to different people .If the bible has a spiritual message inside it ,it will convey a spiritual message to it's intended target.....peace

reply to post by ArtemisE


You're right. It's all a fairy tale. It's like basing a religion on Jack and Jill. Just stories written by people with an agenda, 2000 years ago.

TownCryer
You're right. It's all a fairy tale. It's like basing a religion on Jack and Jill. Just stories written by people with an agenda, 2000 years ago.

Yeah, but if there was a religion that required me to 'fetch a pail of water' *wink wink* with some chickie everyday I would be the high-freakin-priest.

reply to post by ArtemisE


You make a valid point, some discount the OT, but believe in the NT, and somehow ignore that the prophesies in the OT prove that Jesus is the Messiah, and Jesus even quotes from the OT. Cherry picking the bible is not true Christianity.

i used to think ilk the majority of the peeps posting: Bible = fairy tails

but there are excellent researchers who will make you reconsider this…

go through all the Creation scientists (Walter Veith, Dr. Baugh, Chuck Missler, etc) and discover that there is an obvious agenda for us all NOT to believe the Bible… the science being left out is massive and truly wonderful to discover…

there always seems to be an elegant answer to every question I had… anyone who researchers this will be surprised… even "aliens" have a place (researcher Joe Jordan)

then find people like Josh McDowell, Lee Strobels and Gary Habermas and see that the New Testament is perhaps the most valid documents we have…

also the archeological evidence we are not told is amazing:

Jonathan Gray's "Dead Men's Secrets", Ron Wyatt, Walter Veith, etc…

tons of great archeology, contrary to popular opinion today…

and then you have researcher Jim Vieira on giants: more massive inconvenient Biblical truth being hidden from us, this time by Smithsonian…

it goes on and on…

research the occult and spirit worshippers (Earthquake Kelly, Roger Morneau) for more contemporary insights into how the planet is managed…

Bible will come into focus…

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Pseudo Christianity." I believe the NT, virgin birth, Christ was the word
of God in the flesh ".

But a world wide flood? Complete garbage, fairytales, flat out didn't happen
because the Bible isn't just two books it's sixtysix. And because mankind
evolved.

No Christian.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by tsingtao

 

Because we're not supernatural forces. We're bound to the laws of physics, which essentially means we can't just manifest a solution. We have a partnership with the earth, and that means we respect its limits. Then there's our limits - and unlike some fictional characters I could name, we've made a name for ourselves by winning through hard effort and discipline, not by hitting the "instantaneous victory" button.

i think you are implying that God should make everything fine and dandy here on earth? why? not gonna happen, anyway.

He never promised us a rose garden in this life. since eden.

let the people and governments clean things up. it's the affairs of men after all.

and we are not "winning" anything, imo.

Krazysh0t

tsingtao

Krazysh0t

tsingtao

Krazysh0t

tsingtao

AfterInfinity
reply to post by deadlyhope

 

It is believed the Bible is a book from god, not that each and every copy was hand-written in simple terms everyone can understand/no one could debate.

Because no god would ever resort to such infallible, practical, common-sense measures, right? Its ludicrous to think they might actually take steps to prevent a notoriously flawed society from misreading or misinterpreting something so sacred and important. Utterly laughable, right?

aren't we human? lol!

let's put it this way, the bible is filled with fallible, impracticable, nonsensical societies.
heck, look around you! people want to blame God?

bible has been consistent for a couple 1000 yrs. science hasn't, has it?

The whole POINT of science is for it not to be consistent. Why would you point that out as a falling of science when that is what it is designed to do? That's like saying that the Sears Tower in Chicago fails as a building because it is too tall.

You think it is a GOOD thing that the bible has been consistent for a few millenniums? A book written by men whose claims cannot be authenticated since they've been lost too time is supposed to be more credible then science because over the years the message has remained the same? That's absurd. But if we are going by length of time a concept is unchanged as the most credible, I guess that means that the Hindu religion is the most correct, it is after all the oldest and has remained largely unchanged for a lot longer than the bible.

sure, your science changes all the time.

My science? So what science rules your life? Gravity affects you differently or something?

i don't care about hindu. i am a christian.
i don't care about atheists.

That's fine, I don't care about Christianity. That still doesn't change my point. That the bible has no way to be authenticated so it is a poor source of information. Also if you are citing that the bible is true because of its unchanging nature for so long, then I just gave you an example of a religion whose books are FAR older and just as unchanged as your precious bible. I used YOUR logic to show the error in your thinking, and you dismiss it off hand because you can't be bothered to care about that particular religion. So answer me this, WHAT (in your opinion) makes the bible a good source of information?

believe what you want. or don't.

i believe in science, too. DUH!

First you label it MY science earlier in this very post then you follow up saying that you also believe in science, followed by some condescending retort like I should have known all along or something. So which is it? Is it my science or is it universal?

the only absurd thing is science claiming to be THE truth.

Show we were science claims to be THE truth. Everything I've read says that science is used to predict future events based on past experimentation. It uses probability and statistical analysis to do so. I haven't read anywhere that science claims to be the truth. Perhaps you are mixing the term "facts" with the word "truth". Science certainly uses facts (and evidence) to prove its positions, something the bible never gets around to doing.

edit on 25-3-2014 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)

well, isn't your science dogma?

No. It's just a bunch of observations about the universe and how it works. It changes all the time. We already went over this, in fact the whole changing all the time part is why I started responding to you to begin with. There CAN'T be dogma if the concepts are ever changing. Don't try to pigeonhole science with the failings of religion.

hell, the way you science guys talk, the bible is fake and you guys hold the ultimate truths.
in my eyes ya haven't done crap.

The Bible IS fake. Science and it's various sub-sciences have disproved the literal creation account, noah's flood, moses' exodus, and the tower of babel. Science has also shown doubts on the miracles performed by Jesus Christ. But even WITHOUT science, simple logic shows that the bible is fake. Contradictions abound in that book. One minute god is all forgiving the next minute he holds grudges for all eternity. So which is it? The historical record is also doing a good job disproving much of the bible as well. As we study history more and more, especially the religions of other cultures from history, we find many of the SAME stories as in the bible, almost like they were plagiarized. Science is just one tool, someone can use to disprove the bible.

All of that being said, that DOESN'T mean that a creator can't exist or there isn't a spiritual side to existence. Religious types have a point that you cannot disprove god. Science may even prove a creator eventually, you just have to accept that the creator that science may find probably won't look like the creator you have pictured in your head (the Christian one). The supernatural is either fake or just the natural except science hasn't gotten around to explaining it yet.

As for the second part of your claim. Until you can produce a majority of scientists who say that science holds the ultimate truths STOP MAKING THAT CLAIM! That is the second time you've made that claim to me and the second time you failed to back it up with sources.

still hunger and suffering in the world, income inequality, wars, hatred, etc.

where is your science to fix all that?


pretty cool, eh?

Show me where science ever claimed to be the answer to all of those problems. Science may be working on solutions to help those things, but that doesn't mean the overall objective of science is to do that. Science just observes and reports. But then again, religion has ruled the world for the majority of the time humans have been living in societies and created those problems to begin with. So explain to me why it is science's job to clean up religion's mess.

The problem with religious folks like you is that you reject science because it doesn't have all the answers, but something claiming to have all the answers is a dubious source at best, it should never be that easy. The universe doesn't work that way. Science comes to its conclusions at its own pace. It may answer the questions and problems you have, but it isn't something that will happen on your time. It happens on science's time. If that happens to exceed your lifetime then so be it. Just be happy with the advances in scientific knowledge that you experience during your lifetime.

edit on 25-3-2014 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)

religion didn't start all that suffering, man did. don't make me laugh.
just like science, the bible is.
dogged pursuit of truth. unless someone comes up with something else, that is. which doesn't really happen with the bible.

and who says i reject science? i am a chef of 40yrs, i deal in chemistry and anatomy and logistics and math on a daily basis. throw in a healthy dose of psychology too.

i am also a musician, have my and wife's name on a chip on mars, hard sci-fi fan too, since i was able to read.
i get more tv channels than i did as a kid, tho. lol!

science is only about discovering how awesome our universe is that was created for us and any other life, that is in it.
i still want my flying car. been waiting forever, btw.

moresco
reply to post by the2ofusr1

 

We are free to believe or my case not believe anything you want. I hope your faith brings you comfort and peace.

thanks from all the religious everywhere.

i'm sure we can say the same to you.

star and peace!

Hebrew Gematria Total 3766 copy and paste the KJV English Text into the
English Gematria Calculator Total - 2004 (A1 - Z26)

There are a total of 31,102 verses in the Scriptures.

1ST Portion Statistics

1) IT Saviour, 2) IT Messiah IT Messiah - 3) father father, 4) fathers, 5) Father

Chapter:Verse numbers : Some thirty some sixty, some Mark 4:8

1) 19:20 ~ 19 11 30
2) 10:16 ~ 20 10 30
3) 10:14 ~ 16 14 30
4) _8:10 ~ 10 10 20
5) 11:2 _~ _8 _2 10 ~ 30

Primary verse:

First Portion Calculations

1) 23rd Book 18025th vs. Isaiah 19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them. Hebrew Gematria Total 3766 ~ English Gematria Total 2004

2) 37662004/ 31102 ~ 28584 - Gematria Totals

3) 192037662004/31102 ~ 11410 - Verse Address, Gematria Totals

4) 18025192037662004/31102 ~ 10586 - Verse #, Verse Address, Gematria Totals

5) 2318025192037662004/31102 ~ 25408 - Book, Verse #, Verse Address, Gematria Totals


First Portion Verses

1) 23rd Book 18025th vs. Isaiah 19:20 And IT shall be for a Sign and for a Witness unto YAHUWAH of Hosts in the land of mitsrayim: for they shall cry unto YAHUWAH because of the oppressors, and HE shall send them a Saviour, and a Great One, and HE shall deliver them.

2) 37662004/31102 ~ 28584th vs. 1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is IT not the communion of the Blood of Messiah? The bread which we break, is IT not the communion of the Body of Messiah?

3) 192037662004/31102 ~ 11410th vs. 2Ch 10:14 And answered them after the advice of the young men, saying, My father made your yoke heavy, but I will add thereto: my father chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.

4) 18025192037662004/31102 ~ 10586th vs. 1Ch 8:10 And Yeuz, and Shachia, and Mirma.These were his sons, heads of the fathers.

5) 2318025192037662004/31102 ~ 25408th vs. Luk 11:2 And HE said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.


Consecutive Accumulative Method, add the verse numbers from the first section > 1) + 2) = verse 6) + 3) = verse 7) + 4) = verse 8) + 5) = verse 9)

6) 18025 + 28584 ~ 46609 - 31102 ~ 15507th vs. Psa 99:7 HE spake unto them in the cloudy pillar: they kept His testimonies, and the ordinance that HE gave them.

7) 15507 + 11410 ~ 26917th vs. Joh 21:18 Verily, Verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

8) 26917 + 10586 ~ 37503 - 31102 ~ 6401st vs. Jos 21:19 All the cities of the children of Aharon, the priests, were thirteen cities with their suburbs.

9) 6401 + 25408 ~ 31809 - 31102 ~ 707th vs. Gen 26:14 For he had possession of flocks, and possession of herds, and great store of servants: and the philistines envied him.
~~~3
10) 707 + 15507 ~ 16214th vs. Psa 136:17 To Him which smote great kings: for His Mercy endureth for ever:

11) 16214 + 26917 ~ 43131 - 31102 ~ 12029th vs. Ezr 2:1 Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Yerushalayim and Yahudah, every one unto his city;

12) 12029 + 6401 ~ 18430th vs. Isa 40:9 O Tsiyon, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Yerushalayim, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Yahudah, Behold ELOHEYKIM!

13) 18430 + 707 ~ 19137th vs. Jer 7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Yahudah and in the streets of Yerushalayim
~~~~4

3rd Portion Statistics


Judah and Jerusalem occur 35 Times together w/ city or cities in 31102 verses in the scriptures.... three times in a row 11) 12) 13) these are the only occurrences of the words Judah or Jerusalem through the first 153 verses...

31102/35 = 888.6285714

Odds of occurring in a row 1/888*1/888*1/888 = approx 1 in 700 million


Verse symmetry

~~~136/17 8
1 9 7 ``17 8
~~~~~~~17 8
40_ 2 ~~42 6

occurrence factor number without the decimal /scriptures cyclical

8886285714/31102 = 8886th vs. 1 Kings 5:7

Immeasurable