Reset The Economy: Delete The Debt.

reply to post by Aazadan


Have to say Aazadan you certainly seem to have put some thought to the matter.

Don't know about two different currencies through, seems to me it would only create more of a social divide between the haves and the have not's in our society and would be open to all types of abuse. Then again it not like that's not already an issue with our current systems and financial institutions.

andy06shake
reply to post by Aazadan

 

Have to say Aazadan you certainly seem to have put some thought to the matter.

Don't know about two different currencies through, seems to me it would only create more of a social divide between the haves and the have not's in our society and would be open to all types of abuse. Then again it not like that's not already an issue with our current systems and financial institutions.

edit on 24-3-2014 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)

Well, in any economic system you're ideally close to a 0 sum exchange which means that unless a deal is completely even (rarely the case) someone is always winning and someone is always losing. This would shrink the wealth gap though assuming the points that the conservatives like to point out are true (I think that to be fair you have to grant that they have some good points). If the rich truly do consume more than the rest of us, they will create a high demand for the secondary currency, far more than they can afford merely through the monthly allotment. This means they'll be pumping dollars back out to people making less money in order to afford their luxuries. Those on the bottom would be able to trade their secondary currency for those dollars giving them the money to buy lifes basics like food, shelter, and clothing. The dollars could even go towards buying used luxury goods reducing waste.

I would love to hear the ways to abuse it that come to mind, I'm pretty good at abusing systems but I tend to be biased towards the ones I create and I don't see where it's open to such things because I see it functioning in the ideal. It's possible I've explained something poorly, or it's possible there's something I've missed.

reply to post by Aazadan


World currency has collapsed several times, and the only reason it didn't in 2008 was the bailouts, and a lot of financial shenagery. the Bankers ICBs learned nothing and jumped back into the whole bubble economy.

What we need to do is take the foam off of the top.

I'm not sure that a collapse of the world economy like back in 1929 would be any worse than the great recession we are currently going through.

What is worse is that we have saddled future generations with the mess that has been created.

reply to post by Aazadan


I imagine the fact that since Human beings would have to be involved in the creation and maintenance of such a system that in itself opens it up to abuse simply because people can be corrupted. Also i think a two currency system would divide the classes even further apart than they already are. Those are just two problems that spring to mind but its not like I have a better idea other than stop spending 100s of billions on our war industries and reinvest the money in our welfare, education and future technology programs.

If you ask me the key to humanity's future existence, hence success, lies in our ability to get the hell of this rock and on to greener pastures.

poet1b
reply to post by Aazadan

 

World currency has collapsed several times, and the only reason it didn't in 2008 was the bailouts, and a lot of financial shenagery. the Bankers ICBs learned nothing and jumped back into the whole bubble economy.

World currency has never collapsed because we haven't had a big enough problem since the world has become globalized. Prior to globalization currencies were much more isolated. 2008 would have been a true global collapse, but we prevented it by creating a lot of new debt to back the world currencies. In truth what happened in 2008 was permanent damage, there is no real recovery from it possible without a new economic model, it doesn't help matters that we didn't take the optimal route to deal with the problem. Those large banks should have collapsed, instead we created even more damage for the sake of moderate term stability (avoiding a new worldwide great depression that would have lasted 10+ years).

I'm not sure I can really blame the politicians for taking the route of keeping the people comfortable because what would have followed is nations collapsing and mob justice but a large part of me also believes it was the wrong move. At the very least I can agree that it was handled poorly.

The real problem is that we had and have laws against this very thing. There are rules on how leveraged a bank can be... they have totally disregarded those. We had Glass-Steagall which would prevent this. We took the lessons of history and totally disregarded them. And many in power still don't have the backbone to admit this was wrong. I feel like the John Adams quote "I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy." is more true today than it was back in his time.

Since this is a conspiracy site I'm going to close this with a conspiracy: Bitcoin was created by the US Government. They recognized what was going to happen and set about creating a new monetary system. Bitcoin truly is the future of currency and it could very well become the One World Currency that the NWO forum so often rails against. It has some of the same failures as state backed currency and lacks all of the advantages that a dual currency system provides but it is a currency beyond the control of banks and beyond the control of man to overprint. This is a very powerful thing.

andy06shake
I imagine the fact that since Human beings would have to be involved in the creation and maintenance of such a system that in itself opens it up to abuse simply because people can be corrupted.

This is actually a positive. Do you know what's putting China on the road to being a superpower? Their ability to manipulate a mixed economy. Because of government price controls they are able to drive consumer spending in optimal patterns. My system still allows market access but the credit cost of non necessities allows the government to push different markets at different times. Imagine if we had the auto collapse all over again but the government was able to step in and reduce the credit cost of cars. They would be able to push that market for a few months giving the industry the push it needs without directly subsidizing it. Or how about our technology companies? We could create attractive long term contracts in order to build the initial funding for whitefi at low credit costs without having to get funding from banks or the government. Or to take Obama's energy plan we could offer a discount on energystar gold and platinum items to make the country more energy independent without dictating to the manufacturer that they must build X item.

Used properly this has tremendous applications. Used poorly it could go about as well as FDR's price fixing, but I believe if the Chinese are capable of doing it properly then we are too.

Also i think a two currency system would divide the classes even further apart than they already are.

Don't just say this. Give details. I need to know how and why it would further the class divide in order to address it.

reply to post by Aazadan


"I would love to hear the ways to abuse it that come to mind"

Rich people are obviously going to accumulate the more desirable of the two currencies. Poor people will be left the other which will probably amount to nothing more than food, water or power stamps.

Then there is the black market implications, poor people will not be allowed to purchase luxury items or alcohol tobacco or drugs essentially because the don't have the proper currency, or means to accumulate it, or enough of it.

Then we have bank accounts, these days the complicated enough! What about with two currencies do you have separate accounts for each currency? Are the currencies legally interchangeable? Is there an exchange rate? Or will that also become a black market issue?

The potential for corruption and price fixing are there i'm afraid. I think all that would happen is we would double our problems.

Cabin
One man´s debt is another man´s wealth. The US debt exists in the treasury bonds, which are bought by different investors, mostly banks, as well as other countries.

In 08, just one large bank failed. Look where this lead to. If the debt was erased it could crash near to every institution holding the debt currently, which would possibly to lead to the crashing of every economy in the world.

Unless some solution is found, which is very unlikely due to private interests (nobody wants to lose their "investment" , there is no way to fix the current system. The whole economics system would need to be restructured in order for the debt to be erased, a new way of economic system to work needs to be found.

Otherwise resetting the debt would take us back to middle ages.

Am i in the minority when i say that our countries, supposedly the 'mature' economies of the world, the progressive societies, the leaders, the civilised and forward thinking of the entire world...choose to invest not in programmes that contribute to the building of something great and tangible, the creation of things that would enrich us all, elevate us all, encourage our children and give them a wonderous world with which to fuel their aspirations and dreams of a better world for all, but instead choose to invest our futures, and that of our children in...debt.

To invest in debt is absolutely none of the above, in fact, the complete and utter opposite of the above. It is stagnant, counter to progression, counter to something being built or wonderful or tangible. It doesn't elevate us, uplift our minds or spirits, it is the fuel for depression not aspiration.

What insane and twisted mind could ever have concieved of a debt based economy as anything other than a mill-stone and nightmare for the Human psyche and spirit?

Who is more pathetic though, those who knowingly designed and encouraged it, or those who are knowingly enslaved and ruined by it?

We could have had a world where we confindently looked upwards towards the stars, instead we're constantly looking downward, tiptoeing around trying to avoid falling in the crap.

I know there's a lot more to this, and it's easy to view these things with child like eyes..but i ask you, surely we can do better?

We ought to have done better for our species than this mad system based on nothing at all except ease the lives of a measly few at the expense of most.

I'm ranting...i'd better call it a night.

reply to post by MysterX

Indeed could've been better.

andy06shake
reply to post by Aazadan

 

Rich people are obviously going to accumulate the more desirable of the two currencies. Poor people will be left the other which will probably amount to nothing more than food, water or power stamps.

But the currency would have no value other than to purchase goods. One could spend all their money hoarding it but it wouldn't get you anything. Corporations can not own it which means there won't be hedge funds and the like dealing in it. It would be totally worthless to investors in other nations. If people are buying it, it's because they intend to purchase products, which redistributes the currency to everyone as there is always a fixed amount in the system per capita.

Then there is the black market implications, poor people will not be allowed to purchase luxury items or alcohol tobacco or drugs essentially because the don't have the proper currency, or means to accumulate it, or enough of it.

Luxury items could still be purchased because it would only apply to new items. If you're willing to buy something used the cost would be negotiated purely between the buyer and seller at whatever rate the two of you find to be fair. Just like is currently done.

Then we have bank accounts, these days the complicated enough! What about with two currencies do you have separate accounts for each currency? Are the currencies legally interchangeable? Is there an exchange rate? Or will that also become a black market issue?

I covered this in the thread on it. I think you're underestimating people. Besides these accounts would be simple. People handle dual resource systems in their lives all the time. Ever looked at a game like Starcraft or Warcraft 3? How about oil and gas for a car? Money and time? Cards seen and bankroll management in poker? Dual resource systems are all over the place and they function very well in all of them. It's easily within the realm of complication that they can handle. You could even look at tourist areas in poor countries such as Cabo San Lucas in Mexico where the local population despite being uneducated is very able to easily work in dollars or peso's and seamlessly switch between the two. If they can do it, anyone can.

As for the rest: You would have a different account for each currency. Banks would handle the accounts but would be forbidden from making loans of the secondary currency. The two would be interchangeable through an exchange this is how the poor could convert theirs to cash for necessities and how the rich could amass enough to buy luxury items. There would be a web based government exchange which would function with escrow and insurance for secure transfers for a 1% fee (to cover the insurance rates and program upkeep) but other exchanges would be allowed at whatever terms people wished... this would simply serve as a minimum quality standard. Through this there would be no black market as the exchange is totally legitimate and a core part of how the system functions.

reply to post by Aazadan


Again buddy you seem to have thought about it in detail but I imagine the solutions to our monetary and financial dilemmas involve simplifying our banking systems. Your solution, in my opinion, will only add more fuel to the fire so to speak!

But what do I know, personally i long for revolution, with a little justice and retribution thrown in for good measure.

andy06shake
reply to post by Aazadan

 

Again buddy you seem to have thought about it in detail but I imagine the solutions to our monetary and financial dilemmas involve simplifying our banking systems. Your solution, in my opinion, will only add more fuel to the fire so to speak!

But what do I know, personally i long for revolution, with a little justice and retribution thrown in for good measure.

edit on 26-3-2014 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)

Simplifying banking is one of those things that sounds good but is really just a statement with no substance. Simplifying inherently involves removing details from the process. We do need some banking reforms but I think we disagree on what should be done. In my opinion barring some massive overhaul to the system like what I proposed what we need is fairly simple... doing this would get things back under control. The question is how to do it.

1. Investment banks can no longer be savings banks. It is completely absurd to me that a bank can gamble your savings account in whatever investment they want. If they lose the money it's covered by FDIC rather than out of the banks profit, but if they make money they keep it.

2. Banks need to be leveraged less. Fractional reserve banking is a good thing because it greatly expands the money supply, however the more leveraged a bank is, the more unstable it is. Rates in the past that have been shown to work well are the 8:1 to 10:1 range... if you really want to push things 15:1. The large banks today are leveraging at rates between 30:1 and 50:1. Then essentially demand extortion payments to lower their leverage rate (doubling their cash on hand turns 50:1 into 25:1). Of course, once that happens the banks just leverage again and demand more.

3. Financial misconduct needs to be treated seriously. It is one of the largest impact crimes one can commit yet the fines for breaking the law don't even cancel out a fraction of the profit generated by doing so. When Chase screws everyone and essentially robs their customers of 50 billion dollars, they're fined maybe 1 billion. They get to keep the rest. It's completely insane. When someone steals in any other aspect of life all profit from the theft is taken, and then a serious fine is imposed on top of that (in the cases without jail time).

4. We need to do something about derivatives. When the real global financial collapse comes this will be what does it. Unfortunately the whole thing is so unstable that virtually any attempt to reign it in could actually trigger the collapse.

There's probably more than that which I'm sure I'll see later and wish I could edit in but those 4 items would be a good start.

reply to post by MysterX


WOW, what a great post. Thanks!

the progressive societies, the leaders, the civilized and forward thinking of the entire world...chose to invest NOT in programs that contribute to the building of something great and tangible,
...
but instead chose to invest our futures, and that of our children in...debt.
...
What insane and twisted mind could ever have conceived of a debt based economy as anything other than a mill-stone and nightmare for the Human psyche and spirit?
...
We ought to have done better for our species than this mad system based on nothing at all except ease the lives of a measly few at the expense of most.

I think you have put it all into perspective.

originally posted by: andy06shake
reply to post by monkeyluv

 

"The problem isn't just too much debt but lack of resources and environmental damage (including global warming)."

No buddy the problem is exactly to much debt! You see when our financial institutions lend 90% on the dollar/pound that's a problem as any morron could tell you this does nothing more than create a system that can only fail in the end. hence our current predicament.

Banker scum are the issue, remove them and remove the problem!

You're not countering my argument.

I don't want to sound like a dick or anything because I have thought similar things over the years, but why do you think resetting the debt would change anything?

Money is what you make it. Whether it be the dollar bill, gold, silver, yen, a cheese burger, etc....People need to provide goods/services in order to attain wealth. In general, the more you work the more money you make. There will always be people who cheat the system and rig to horde resources. This is going to happen no matter what kind of economic system you have.

Unfortunately a debt based system works best in our current society, and until we "evolve" into better people, we are stuck with this.

What ever happened to NEVER a borrower or LENDER be

biblehub.com...

I'm gonna go and check out "Fight Club" just because of that post.

I don't generally LOL much, but I did when I saw that.

THANKS, LOLOLOLOLOL

a reply to: iRoyalty

a reply to: Aazadan

I generally agree with you except to add one thing. It wouldn't bring a collapse of world economies, the more I have really thought about this in the sense of real world actions. No, I don't think foreign nations would collapse at all. In fact, they'd become stronger afterward.

World War does that with the combatant nations. At least, at first.

I figure we've used debt as a weapon and a very cruel and ruthless one at times...for the better part of 70 years now. The entire structure of the World Bank and IMF is a creation of the Allied powers and largely funded by the US in seed money out of WW-II. So....I pity the leaders who probably are that naive, if they actually move to do this.

The nations who we've kept on the wrong side of this debt equation for power and their own slave to the lender will literally go postal with militaries at the ready if the US and West seriously suggest writing the ultimate "Pain for thee but none for me!" policy that way. Most of the world wouldn't be benefiting and would be clobbered.

Oh Yeah.. That's one way to insure world war comes, I'd say. Just tell everyone we did what they suffered decades for but the rules don't count for us..nyah nyah. We'll see how well that is received, eh? (hides in bunny bunker..lol)

Those in power have NO reason to reset anything.

Everything is going exactly according to their plans.

originally posted by: BO XIAN
ALL THE GLOBAL ELITES IN POWER WANT A TOTAL MELT DOWN AND WWIII.

They've worked hard setting it up.

They are determined to see it through.

They are licking their chops over the bloodshed, anarchy, chaos, suffering.

They are evil to the core.

The biggest "terrorist" threat to the People in the U.S.A. is not Ossama bin Laden or any other so-called "terrorist" leader or group. While Americans are preoccupied with a rigged phony election and "wars for PROFIT" in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Illuminati controlled Federal Reserve "terrorists" are orchestrating a financial collapse in the U.S.A. that could destroy the U.S.A. and other countries in the world much more than the Great Depression of 1929-32.

The biggest threat to America are the "terrorists" that are conducting "FINANCIAL WARFARE" in America and other countries of the world, possibly leading to s Global Financial Meltdown. These "terrorists" are a small covert, clandestine, London, European and American based organization operating in the U.S.A. as a supposed "U.S. government agency".

They're called the Federal Reserve, which is controlled by the most EVIL "terrorists" in the world, the "Elite terrorist" group of criminals, crooks and killers, known as the Illuminati. By the President and Vice president of the U.S.A. and every Senator and Congressman making it appear that the Federal Reserve is a Government Agency, when it's an independent PRIVATE company, should show the American citizens the extent to which this most

The Illuminati Controlled Federal Reserve 'Terrorists'

"The Federal Reserve definitely caused the Great depression by contracting the amount of currency in circulation by one-third from 1929 to 1933." ~ Milton Friedman, Nobel Prize winning economist

Rakovsky refers to the 1929 Crash and Great Depression as an "American revolution." It was deliberately precipitated by the Illuminati for profit, to break the "classical American," and to take political power. The Red Symphony Part 2

The Global Financial Crisis (GFC) was a deliberately engineered event in accordance with strategic planning based on the Pike plans for the weakening of the world’s economic structure. The aim is to collapse the EU financially so the world financial controls are brought into play and one world currency is issued so that it can be controlled.

It has all been organized by these satanic tools to bring all mankind into slavery and they are stupid enough to think they can control it. The US is being destroyed by its banking system and is deliberately destroying itself. All of this was engendered for a specific end to commence in earnest from 2010.

Between 2010 and 2012 the world’s finances will be in an engineered crisis to enable world government using the so-called Global Warming Crisis and the fraudulent science to enforce population controls and social change to destroy the family and induce satanic controls in accord with the plans. The result will be systematic world depopulation; in other words, mass murder on a scale never before seen.

Economic Destruction in Preparation for 2012

a reply to: MysterX

Great OP and certainly food for thought.

A full system re-boot - seem to recall seeing that being posted on more than one or two occasions.

The people could collapse the entire system in short order if only they could all agree to get outside of their comfort zones for a relatively short period of time.

But there is usually something worse to fill the vacuum left behind, at least for a time.

Most of us are not so different than those we rail against.