God's law; The poor always with you

BDBinc

ketsuko
reply to post by Akragon

 

Because you took a risk in lending in the first place. It is your fee for lending money you had to someone who didn't have it on the mere agreement that they would pay it back.

If I ( a private banking cartel) can create money from thin air there is no risk to me lending it for my profit and causing debt slavery .
The complex financial system relies on people not understanding it.

But you aren't actually talking about money in all cases. You might be talking about paper and coin, but each of those has a variable value placed onto it.

What is the illusion is that the world works on numbers, that's all. PayPal, Bitcoin, all numbers. Transferring money from one bank to another, not really money, just numbers. ATMs, you might get paper out of it, but it is based on numbers.

That's the way loans today work, you didn't pay paper for that loan, the bank bought the car from the auto dealer, not with money but with numbers. Then you pay paper, in most cases, but if you pay by debit card or credit card, then numbers.

Every day the value on money changes, what that really is, is nothing more than numbers. Value is changed. That's why the car is like money, because it is tangible and has a value. So the bank loaning at interest, is nothing more than the value of the numbers that day.

So the numbers that day might be 10,000, with 10% interest. But the value of those numbers that day might be only 8,500. Then 10% interest then raises the values of the numbers.

Fluctuating values makes it an illusion.

Anyway, I digress and back to the topic. Usury is anything over 25%, but add that 25% interest to a value of less than than the number.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Sorry not sure why I was not clearer I said there is no RISK in the creation of an illusion/money by banks(/wall st).
If definitions of usury are necessary:
Usury (/ˈjuːʒəri/[1][2]) is the practice of making unethical or immoral monetary loans intended to unfairly enrich the lender (as determined by the social justice values of the community; in other words, it is a judgment call). A loan may be considered usurious because of simply charging any interest at all can be considered usury.
Usury does not mean anything over "25 percent".
There is also exploitation of others can be considered as a form of usury.
I agree creating money out of thin air is an illusion.And think of nations not creating their own money (which they could) but choosing instead to pay the privately owned banking cartel to create it for them so that they can make their citizens pay taxes to the private banks for the interest on the nation's borrowed money. Equals= Debt slavery.

@op...haven't followed the conversation in this thread, but regarding the essence of the subject the op deals with...God's law is, among other things, designed to look after the poor. By making charity a religious value, the well off have a religious duty to give to the (extremely) poor. Religious laws help organise societies.

reply to post by DISRAELI

"the meek shall inherit the Earth" Matt 5: 5

could be another way to keep the meek, meek...or the poor, poor?

being meek or poor is seen as a good thing...even the analogy behind the verse Matt 19:24:

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. Matt 19:24

sk0rpi0n
.God's law is, among other things, designed to look after the poor. By making charity a religious value, the well off have a religious duty to give to the (extremely) poor. Religious laws help organise societies.

yes I agree. The 10% of your wage (tax) is for that...it is well entrenched into our contemporary values/laws.

Thurisaz
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

"the meek shall inherit the Earth" Matt 5: 5

could be another way to keep the meek, meek...or the poor, poor?

''meek'' refers to the meek ones who had to suffer under a godless system, at a certain point in time. Even in a secular society, if the ''meek'' or ''poor'' were to rise up, they would all be beaten down and arrested as trouble makers. The ''not-so-meek'' and ''super-rich'' have secular law on their side anyway.

Thurisaz
"the meek shall inherit the Earth" ...could be another way to keep the meek, meek...or the poor, poor?

But, as Skorpion above you pointed out, the intention of the laws outlined in the OP is to improve the lot of the poor, and try to stop them from going down or staying down.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Yes, exactly.
I thought you would be one of those who could see the point of these laws, as part of the Biblical God's interest in protecting the weak and vulnerable.

sk0rpi0n

Thurisaz
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

"the meek shall inherit the Earth" Matt 5: 5

could be another way to keep the meek, meek...or the poor, poor?

''meek'' refers to the meek ones who had to suffer under a godless system, at a certain point in time. Even in a secular society, if the ''meek'' or ''poor'' were to rise up, they would all be beaten down and arrested as trouble makers. The ''not-so-meek'' and ''super-rich'' have secular law on their side anyway.

Meek does not refer to that. Jesus said "Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am lowly and meek". Does that mean Jesus was poor and suffered under a Godless system?

No, it means that He was not arrogant, prideful or boastful.

BDBinc
Sorry if someone has already asked this already -could the poverty referred to be spiritual poverty?

I understand why you ask that question, because Matthew's version of the first Beatitude says "Blessed are the poor in spirit", provoking an endless debate about which kind of poverty Jesus meant.
But the laws outlined in the OP are detailed attempts to help people in the situation of material poverty, so the topic is framed on that basis.
The title of this thread was borrowed from the the Deuteronomy verse quoted at the beginning of the OP, but also from its echo in the words of Jesus; "The poor you always have with you...".
But there again, he was responding to the suggestion that oil should have been sold to benefit the materially poor, so that kind of poverty remains the theme.

DISRAELI

BDBinc
Sorry if someone has already asked this already -could the poverty referred to be spiritual poverty?

I understand why you ask that question, because Matthew's version of the first Beatitude says "Blessed are the poor in spirit", provoking an endless debate about which kind of poverty Jesus meant.

I see your interpretation is different, that you really mean something different, you mean " a material lack of money".
I do not understand as it does not say " blessed are the poor in material monies "
Jesus teaching was concerned about spirit not body, so don't know why you think he was concerned about material wealth.
What does Christ consciousness have to do with material money?

reply to post by BDBinc

We can talk about the meaning of the Beatitudes on another occasion.
I quoted the words of Jesus only to show that I recognised where the idea of "spiritual poverty" was coming from.
This thread is not about the words of Jesus, but about the laws of the Old Testament.
The laws of the Old Testament are concerning themselves with material poverty because that is a practical application of the general principle "You shall love your neighbour as yourself".

DISRAELI
reply to post by BDBinc

 

This thread is not about the words of Jesus,
but about the laws of the Old Testament.

Thanks for clearing that up.
I did not know you were talking about material monies. Man's laws or debated interpretations from the adulterated (man) written old testament are not Gods law.
The laws of God are written in your heart, if you cannot read them you are too far away.

DISRAELI
The laws of the Old Testament are concerning themselves with material poverty because that is a practical application of the general principle "You shall love your neighbour as yourself".

" You shall love your neighbour as yourself " If you truely know yourself your neighbour is yourself.

You are being told your neighbour is yourself, as we have the mistaken separation of name and form from the one life.
The quote has nothing to do with material monies or material poverty, love is not to be interpreted as money.
The quote was not "You shall money your neighbour as yourself" so it was not about material poverty.

BDBinc
If you truly know yourself your neighbour is yourself.

This is not about living in some abstract philosophical world.
This is about living in the real world where people have to relate to one another, and the question is how we should be relating to one another.
The injunction of Jesus is that we should love our neighbour no less than ourselves, and this love may involve being concerned about the fact that he doesn't have enough to live on.
So that is a practical reason why loving your neighbour may involve taking his material poverty into consideration.

The laws of God are written in your heart, if you cannot read them you are too far away.

All right, but what are we supposed to say to those who are "too far away" to read the laws written in the heart?
The bloody history of the human race suggests that this has always applied to a large number of people.
Are you going to say, "if you can't read them, that's tough, because you won't be able to find them anywhere else"? That would be very harsh, and it would be unhelpful.
A better alternative is to provide signs which point them in the right direction, and that's what the Biblical teaching is for.
That's why Paul called the law our "teacher".
The Old Testament laws are the elementary level of the teaching.
They provide practical examples of the way people should be behaving towards one another.
The New Testament teaching is at a more advanced level and points out the basic principles which lie behind the earlier laws, "love your neighbour" being the most fundamental.
The point is to help people get closer to an understanding of what God wants from them.

Your question - how we should be relating to one another ?
It was answered in love thy neighbour as yourself, you relate to people as you relate to yourself.
Your neighbour is you, know yourself and love yourself.

What if your neighbour is in spiritual poverty, which do you believe is the most harmful for a human being- material poverty or spiritual poverty? Which did Jesus concern himself with? For with spiritual poverty the material manifestations ( lack of clarity and charity )material poverty would continue.


If you need a book to tell you what your heart says (and that book's ideas are misinterpreted & still fought over) when will you turn within and find the kingdom of heaven?

If you knew who you were (and knew your neighbour was not separate to you) what laws would you need ?
Do you know about the divinity within you?

BDBinc
What if your neighbour is in spiritual poverty, which do you believe is the most harmful for a human being- material poverty or spiritual poverty? Which did Jesus concern himself with? For with spiritual poverty the material manifestations ( lack of clarity and charity )material poverty would continue.

I told you, this thread is not about the words of Jesus.
It is about a selection of Old Testament laws, as quoted in the OP.
These laws are dealing with the question of material poverty, and as such they are illustrating one aspect of "loving your neighbour".
Spiritual poverty can be the topic of a different thread, This thread is about material poverty.

when will you turn within and find the kingdom of heaven?

History shows that the majority of the human race don't find "God's law" on their own and need help to get started.
That's what the book is for. Why do you want to deny them that help?

If you knew who you were (and knew your neighbour was not separate to you) what laws would you need ?
Do you know about the divinity within you?

The fundamental basis of Biblical religion, and therefore of the discussion in this thread, is that you and your neighbour and God are all distinct.
So the supposition which you make there is not relevant to this thread.
And I'm not going to start discussing the supposition itself, because that would be going off-topic.

reply to post by DISRAELI


If this thread is just about material poverty why even bother (mis)quoting Jesus?
Why say the thread is about Gods law?

DISRAELI
The fundamental basis of Biblical religion, and therefore of the discussion in this thread, is that you and your neighbour and God are all distinct.

Now its not about (material/spiritual ) poverty?!?
I will excuse myself as how can one stay on topic on this thread when the topic of the thread is changed and its not about (spiritual) being poor /poverty anymore (or the quotes from Jesus) its about what you think the basis of biblical religion is (as defined by you).

Have a good day.

reply to post by BDBinc

The topic of a thread is defined by the opening post, not by the title alone.
The opening post of this thread, as you should have seen when reading it, was about a set of laws in the Old Testament relating to the treatment of the materially poor.
That tells you the topic of the thread.
Always read the opening post, rather than jumping straight in from the title.

DISRAELI
reply to post by BDBinc

 

The opening post of this thread, as you should have seen when reading it, was about a set of laws in the Old Testament relating to the treatment of the materially poor.That tells you the topic of the thread.

Absolutely brother it is my fault entirely for thinking your title "God law'" & "the poor " was open for part of your topic discussion.
For what could I know about "Gods law " or "the poor" or what the words from Jesus regarding the poor meant - I am an idiot.

Love and peace.

WarminIndy

sk0rpi0n

Thurisaz
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

"the meek shall inherit the Earth" Matt 5: 5

could be another way to keep the meek, meek...or the poor, poor?

''meek'' refers to the meek ones who had to suffer under a godless system, at a certain point in time. Even in a secular society, if the ''meek'' or ''poor'' were to rise up, they would all be beaten down and arrested as trouble makers. The ''not-so-meek'' and ''super-rich'' have secular law on their side anyway.

Meek does not refer to that. Jesus said "Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am lowly and meek". Does that mean Jesus was poor and suffered under a Godless system?

No, it means that He was not arrogant, prideful or boastful.

Jesus was not arrogant, prideful and boastful as you said. Those are ALSO qualities of the meek. God's law was designed to protect and look after those who are not arrogant, boastful or proud ie, the meek. The majority of whom the extremely poor. Today. Mass media tells most people to serve themselves. ONLY God's law instructs mankind to PRIORITIZE looking after the less fortunate.