EU, US impose sanctions against Russian officials over Crimea referendum

reply to post by ABNARTY


Targeted sanctions is a way to punish people in positions of authority that contributed to the perceived problem. Its an attempt to punish those who made the decision while holding back from hurting the citizens of that country.

Generally speaking people in position of authority would rather see the people sanctioned since it would not adversely affect the person in power. Go after the person in power and its possible to not only expose their actions, but to bring that issue to light for the Russian people.

I imagine the sanctions will have actual little effect on the decisions and actions of the Russians/Putin at large, as they had ample warning to move assets and prepare, and still have plenty of dealings with the rest of the world to keep the cash flowing. I feel the US & EU imposing sanctions was more just to make themselves look tough to their own citizenry and press.

If anything, I think the sanctions will hurt the European economy more than the Russians in the long run, but I am hardly an expert on the world economy and am only commenting so far as my gut feeling.

Shaiker
Bet they required voter ids? Clearly a sanctionable action. Oh and the cemetery didn't have its own voting booth. Obama looks like a bigger idiot every time he opens his mouth. Everyone knows our elections are a sham, but to critisize one with outside moniters and transparency is just redicolous.

I wish we had external monitors for our elections.

reply to post by shappy


we did have a few last election whom said it was lunacy not to id voters.

Shaiker
reply to post by shappy

 

we did have a few last election whom said it was lunacy not to id voters.

External as in other countries monitoring it?

Xcathdra

I think they will... I think they have to given the situation. Failing to act at all opens the door wider for Putin and will eventually undermine her own position in GErmany as failing to act.

I guess we'll find out in a few days. I genuinely believe Putin's plan is to stop at Crimea, and wait until Ukraine is dragged into EU/IMF bankruptcy and austerity. For now, the port and the oil fields are safe. He doesn't have to move again for months, maybe years. It's brinksmanship.

Xcathdra

The Tartar vote is interesting, since they (Crimea) claimed they had like a 30-40 percent turnout for the tartar population. The leaders of that population stated they had a 99.9% boycott.

Since there was nothing in place to allow for the voting to be monitored in a correct manner (people not allowed to see how ballots were counted etc).....

Reports of wide spread intimidation to those pro Ukraine.
Reports of Russian citizens voting.

Lots of claims and very little way to investigate them.

I don't trust the BBC any more that I trust RT, but they had an interesting interview with Tartars yesterday evening who basically said 'We're too afraid to go out to vote'.

PsychoEmperor
Exactly the issue, "we" all knew way before the referendum how the election would turn out, why? Because polling was done and we already knew the vast majority of the people there wanted to become part of Russia.

Well, erm, no. We all knew because of the manner in which the ballots were worded. We all knew when Crimea ceded from Ukraine with a referendum of the Crimean people. We all know when the Russian Duma voted to allow Crimea into the Russian Federation - ALL before the referendum was even held.

no independent observations allowed.
No media coverage allowed, unless it was Russian controlled.
voter intimidation...

PsychoEmperor
The idea that this is a "gun point" election is as ridiculous as America sending it's Army to Texas to do border security and than having a Vote in Texas to decide if they want to be part of America. We all know Texas would vote to stay American, just because troops are present means nothing.

Respectfully, your comparison is without merit. First off Texas is a part of the united states, where as Crimea was a part of Ukraine. Secondly, military members, as well as all American citizens, hold dual citizenship. They hold American citizenship abroad and hold state citizenship for the state they reside in full time. So military members assigned to Texas can actually / lawfully vote in Texas Elections.

The same cannot be said about Crimea or Russia or Russian forces / Russian citizens in Crimea.

PsychoEmperor
Xcathdra, There was a 75% Turn out for this election.

edit on 3/17/2014 by PsychoEmperor because: (no reason given)

yeah but the source is the Crimean elections commission, which right now has credibility issues.

khimbar

Xcathdra

I think they will... I think they have to given the situation. Failing to act at all opens the door wider for Putin and will eventually undermine her own position in GErmany as failing to act.

I guess we'll find out in a few days. I genuinely believe Putin's plan is to stop at Crimea, and wait until Ukraine is dragged into EU/IMF bankruptcy and austerity. For now, the port and the oil fields are safe. He doesn't have to move again for months, maybe years. It's brinksmanship.

Xcathdra

The Tartar vote is interesting, since they (Crimea) claimed they had like a 30-40 percent turnout for the tartar population. The leaders of that population stated they had a 99.9% boycott.

Since there was nothing in place to allow for the voting to be monitored in a correct manner (people not allowed to see how ballots were counted etc).....

Reports of wide spread intimidation to those pro Ukraine.
Reports of Russian citizens voting.

Lots of claims and very little way to investigate them.

I don't trust the BBC any more that I trust RT, but they had an interesting interview with Tartars yesterday evening who basically said 'We're too afraid to go out to vote'.

I would rather watch RT than the BBC. The thing is, for all the bashing against RT, a LOT of their staff, presenters and people they interview are NOT Russian! That there speaks volumes to me. Compared to other media, RT is more open, and in fact I find it comedy gold when they tear appart other media's biased reporting and lies. RT has won the media / info wars, it is that simple, and they did it, not by blandant propaganda. Channels like RT are necessary in order to balance out the western media power houses owned by a few. There sure is a LOT of non-Russians on RT.

shappy

Shaiker
Bet they required voter ids? Clearly a sanctionable action. Oh and the cemetery didn't have its own voting booth. Obama looks like a bigger idiot every time he opens his mouth. Everyone knows our elections are a sham, but to critisize one with outside moniters and transparency is just redicolous.

I wish we had external monitors for our elections.

if you are referring about the US we do. In the 2012 Presidential elections we had UN observers in several states.

Xcathdra

shappy

Shaiker
Bet they required voter ids? Clearly a sanctionable action. Oh and the cemetery didn't have its own voting booth. Obama looks like a bigger idiot every time he opens his mouth. Everyone knows our elections are a sham, but to critisize one with outside moniters and transparency is just redicolous.

I wish we had external monitors for our elections.

if you are referring about the US we do. In the 2012 Presidential elections we had UN observers in several states.

Nice, I didn't know that. Wish we had international observers here.

I presume that that was caused by Florida?

khimbar
I guess we'll find out in a few days. I genuinely believe Putin's plan is to stop at Crimea, and wait until Ukraine is dragged into EU/IMF bankruptcy and austerity. For now, the port and the oil fields are safe. He doesn't have to move again for months, maybe years. It's brinksmanship.

Had the reaction to Russian involvement in Crimea been different, I would be inclined to agree with you. In this case, using the reaction as a test, I don't think putin is done with just Crimea. Russia is still playing the wounded Russians game for East / south Ukraine and last I a saw they still had their troops along the border.

Russia is a member of the IMF.

khimbar
I don't trust the BBC any more that I trust RT, but they had an interesting interview with Tartars yesterday evening who basically said 'We're too afraid to go out to vote'.

Hence the reason I think foreign media was removed from Crimea.

shappy

Xcathdra

shappy

Shaiker
Bet they required voter ids? Clearly a sanctionable action. Oh and the cemetery didn't have its own voting booth. Obama looks like a bigger idiot every time he opens his mouth. Everyone knows our elections are a sham, but to critisize one with outside moniters and transparency is just redicolous.

I wish we had external monitors for our elections.

if you are referring about the US we do. In the 2012 Presidential elections we had UN observers in several states.

Nice, I didn't know that. Wish we had international observers here.

I presume that that was caused by Florida?

I don't think so.. I think it was one of those things where Bob picked up the phone and said "hey, I got an idea, lets monitor US elections".

I could care less one way or the other, so long as the observers don't violate any federal / state laws in the process (there was an issue in Texas because of how their law is written). They don't have diplomatic immunity and they were wanting to speak directly to voters inside the polling places (which is a no no in some places / even outside can be a no no unless they are so many feet away from the polling place).

reply to post by shappy


How would you explain the recent resignations from RT?

Do you think the resignations were intentional and designed to embarrass Russia? Or do you think they were valid and attempted to show that they don't have the ability to challenge the Russian governments position?

Xcathdra

PsychoEmperor
Exactly the issue, "we" all knew way before the referendum how the election would turn out, why? Because polling was done and we already knew the vast majority of the people there wanted to become part of Russia.

Well, erm, no. We all knew because of the manner in which the ballots were worded. We all knew when Crimea ceded from Ukraine with a referendum of the Crimean people. We all know when the Russian Duma voted to allow Crimea into the Russian Federation - ALL before the referendum was even held.

no independent observations allowed.
No media coverage allowed, unless it was Russian controlled.
voter intimidation...

PsychoEmperor
The idea that this is a "gun point" election is as ridiculous as America sending it's Army to Texas to do border security and than having a Vote in Texas to decide if they want to be part of America. We all know Texas would vote to stay American, just because troops are present means nothing.

Respectfully, your comparison is without merit. First off Texas is a part of the united states, where as Crimea was a part of Ukraine. Secondly, military members, as well as all American citizens, hold dual citizenship. They hold American citizenship abroad and hold state citizenship for the state they reside in full time. So military members assigned to Texas can actually / lawfully vote in Texas Elections.

The same cannot be said about Crimea or Russia or Russian forces / Russian citizens in Crimea.

PsychoEmperor
Xcathdra, There was a 75% Turn out for this election.

edit on 3/17/2014 by PsychoEmperor because: (no reason given)

yeah but the source is the Crimean elections commission, which right now has credibility issues.

I can't even disagree with you, I suppose it comes down to what news source you happen to believe. Perhaps I'm too tainted by the normal media/government lies and have a tendency to disagree with most of their objectives (news reporting).

Xcathdra

khimbar
I guess we'll find out in a few days. I genuinely believe Putin's plan is to stop at Crimea, and wait until Ukraine is dragged into EU/IMF bankruptcy and austerity. For now, the port and the oil fields are safe. He doesn't have to move again for months, maybe years. It's brinksmanship.

Had the reaction to Russian involvement in Crimea been different, I would be inclined to agree with you. In this case, using the reaction as a test, I don't think putin is done with just Crimea. Russia is still playing the wounded Russians game for East / south Ukraine and last I a saw they still had their troops along the border.

Russia is a member of the IMF.

Ahh, I see. You think the temptation to bite off another piece will be too much, given how easily it's gone so far?

I've just seen the EU are due to announce their sanctions soon. I imagine we'll see then how far they want to take this.

Xcathdra

Hence the reason I think foreign media was removed from Crimea.

I don't think all foreign media was? I definitely saw BBC reporters reporting from the celebrations there?

PsychoEmperor
I can't even disagree with you, I suppose it comes down to what news source you happen to believe. Perhaps I'm too tainted by the normal media/government lies and have a tendency to disagree with most of their objectives (news reporting).

There is nothing wrong with wanting information to help explain what we are seeing. It was one of the main reasons I have asked in 2 different threads for those on the Russian side of the fence to produce source links for their posts, and we would do the same from western media. That way we can read both and maybe find some kernel of truth in the middle.

Sadly it vary rarely occurred, at least in my opinion, on the Russian side.

Even if we remove the media from the question, we still have reports of people being intimidated to prevent them from voting. All the more reason to have NGO's present with cameras / media to document what they are seeing. No comments / no slants - just observations.

When governments refuse to do that, it makes one wonder (from any country). When a government yanks all media off the air that does not agree with its position. When a government shuts down the internet to prevent people from speaking to others outside the region...

To be honest, this election could have been 100% legitimate, however the way it was covered and the actions occurring in Crimea at the time, it would still come across as underhanded and illegal.

They've withdrawn billions out of the banks here, and imagine they could crash the economy, so it seems Obama is a tool for doing just that.

Unity_99
They've withdrawn billions out of the banks here, and imagine they could crash the economy, so it seems Obama is a tool for doing just that.

If you want a stable reserve currency, Norwegian Kronor

I recommend you have some reserves in NOK

Then perhaps SEK, or Singapore Dollar.

If Russia do this right, they can profit from this too.

No money is made on a flat line, money is made on changes up or down. Just as long as you're on the right side of the line movement.

khimbar
Ahh, I see. You think the temptation to bite off another piece will be too much, given how easily it's gone so far?

I've just seen the EU are due to announce their sanctions soon. I imagine we'll see then how far they want to take this.

The sanctions so far are targeted at Prominent Russians in the government. As for Russias continued reporting of the issues in East Ukraine yes, I think they are going to move in and secure those areas. I think Crimea was the test balloon to see what kind of West / EU / NATO response would be.

The one concern I would have if I were Russia is China. Russia is doing what China has been trying to do in terms of territorial claims. In this case, Russia got their first, which makes the move that much harder / riskier for China. By the time China comes around to act, its possible the response wont be like Crimea.

khimbar
I don't think all foreign media was? I definitely saw BBC reporters reporting from the celebrations there?

edit on k095603bamMon, 17 Mar 2014 09:56:16 -0500 by khimbar because: (no reason given)

Only after the fact and not before. I don't care about the fire works or waving flags, I want to see how the voting occurred, what conditions were present, were people prevented from entering polling stations, was proper procedure followed for voting? etc etc etc.

It would be like a person who is going deep sea fishing. the media can record him boarding the boat and leaving. They are prevented from observing / filming the fishing trip, only to be told they have to be at the dock when the boat comes back so they can film them coming back into port with a huge fish they caught.

Did they actually catch the fish or did someone run to Red Lobster and pull one out of the cooler?

Xcathdra

As for Russias continued reporting of the issues in East Ukraine yes, I think they are going to move in and secure those areas. I think Crimea was the test balloon to see what kind of West / EU / NATO response would be.

The one concern I would have if I were Russia is China. Russia is doing what China has been trying to do in terms of territorial claims. In this case, Russia got their first, which makes the move that much harder / riskier for China. By the time China comes around to act, its possible the response wont be like Crimea.

In which case, given the response so far has been to all real purposes non-existent, East Ukraine is next on the list. And if he's going to do it, to quote Macbeth, 'If it were done when ’tis done, then ’twere well, It were done quickly'. If your analysis is correct, we're in for an interesting few days. If he's going to move, then the quicker the better.

The China perspective did make me laugh; are they now annoyed because the world will double the punishment on their moves because it failed to act on Russia's. I know a lot was made of China abstaining not vetoing, but China will always do (quite rightly) what is best for China.