Linking the Illuminati & Freemasonry

Can any one she dany light on the linkage in today's world of the Illuminati and the Freemasons. Not just the use of similar or same symbols as that does not denote any kind of joint venture or singular motive.

My knowledge of the illuminati is not great, and basically is the fact that the Illuminati were a rationalistic society founded in Germany soon after 1776 by Adam Weishaupt, a professor at Ingolstadt, seemingly organized on a Masonic plan it was presumed it had close affinities with the Freemasons. While briefly very popular among German rationalists, it had limited influence. The Roman Catholic Church, which Weishaupt left in his youth and rejoined before his death, condemned the Illuminati; in 1785 the Bavarian government dissolved the organization. It did not long survive.

In Europe during the 15th and 16th cents. the term Illuminati, or Alumbrado, was a term used in reference to persons claiming direct communion with the Holy Spirit, so asserting that outward forms of religious life are unnecessary, along the same teachings of the Gospel fo St Thomas. Their claims led to persecution by the Inquisition and any sort of organisation was repressed.

Other groups using the name and the persona of the illuminati, making use of the fear, admoration, or any one of the numerous effects the name has, to their own advantage have included the Rosicrucians, and certain followers of Jakob Boehme and Emmanuel Swedenborg.

I have not found any need to look any further into it, until coming here, an d seeing all the posts regarding them, and freemasonry.

Now I am no scholar, and this small amount of information is only bits I have found during other research projects, and from what I can tell is factual. I continually come across people trying to link the two organisations, but as yet have not actually seen anything factual, many pattern making with street maps, using the fact they have similar symbols, and many inconclusive thoughts and opinions, but nothing that actually links them.

In all honesty I do not think they are, and I do not believe the true illuminati are still in existance, merely a group of people living off anothers reputation.

Wheres ML when you want him. Hes the boy on that subject.

Originally posted by Bondi
Other groups using the name and the persona of the illuminati, making use of the fear, admoration, or any one of the numerous effects the name has, to their own advantage have included the Rosicrucians, and certain followers of Jakob Boehme and Emmanuel Swedenborg.

Could you expand on this for me please. How do the Rosicrucians use the illuminati "reputation" to their advantage?

Originally posted by AllseeingEYE
Could you expand on this for me please. How do the Rosicrucians use the illuminati "reputation" to their advantage?

Rosicrucians, members of an esoteric society or group of societies, who claim that their order has been in existence since the days of ancient Egypt and has over the course of time included many of the world's sages. Their secret learning deals with occult symbols-notably the rose and the cross, the swastika, and the pyramid-and with mystical writings containing kabbalistic, Hermetic, and other doctrines. The first mention of a Rosicrucian group appeared in Fama fraternitatis (1614), possibly written by Johan Valentin Andre� (1586-1654), and the Confessio rosae crucis (1615), probably authored by the same person. These works described the travels of Christian Rosenkreuz and the development of the Rosicrucian society, mainly from Eastern and Arab origins. Some scholars believe that the name was used by Andre� in the hope that his writings would create a movement dedicated to social reform and esotericism, and that the description of the society was a work of imagination having symbolic or satiric intent. The society was variously called Brothers of the Rosy Cross, Rosy-Cross Knights, and Rosy-Cross Philosophers; its adepts are called Illuminati.

And something that never seems to happen on this forum...

Sources of information

F. A. Yates, The Rosicrucian Enlightenment (1972); C. McIntosh, The Rosy Cross Unveiled (1980); M. E. Roberts, Gothic Immortals (1989); J. G. Melton, ed., Rosicrucianism in America (1990).

It is my interpretation that they are either Rosicrucian or Illuminati. Are the agendas not different, and the supposed methods different. Surely they could not be part of both?

In fact, to be politically correct, this assumptionworks both ways with the info I have, the illuminiati could have invented links with the Roscurians, as earliest records of them both are 15 century.

[edit on 24/11/2004 by Bondi]

Just to add,

I suppose my real interest is are the "Illuminati" spoken of today real and are they the same as the Illuminati of the 15 century. And how are they supposedly linked with freemasonry, either the ones of today, or the 15 Cent version, if they are different.

Interesting thread, guys. And BTW, Bill, thanks for the confidence.

Originally posted by Bondi

It is my interpretation that they are either Rosicrucian or Illuminati. Are the agendas not different, and the supposed methods different. Surely they could not be part of both?

There were indeed a few members of the Illuminati who were also Rosicrucians: Johannes Wolfgang von Goethe is a good example. At first, it may seem contradictory that someone would be both; after all, the Illuminati's views were based on a strict scientific rationalism, and a strong secular liberalism. The Rosicrucians, on the other hand, were a band of religious mystics. The Illuminati studied John Locke and Immanuel Kant, while the Rosicrucians studied the Bible, Alchemy, and the Kabbalah.

But, on a deeper level, we find that science and reason do not conflict with mysticism; in fact, science illuminates religion. Many were very surprised that, upon the death of Sir Isaac Newton, his handwritten translations of medieval works of Alchemy, Hermetic occultism, and papers on the Kabbalah were found. Why, some asked, was a natural physicist like Newton interested in such "superstition"?

A closer look indicates that this "superstition" is actually what led Newton to his scientific discoveries. His masterpiece, "Natural Philosophy and the Principles of Mathematics" were obviously inspired by the geometrical-mystical teachings of Pythagoras, as well as the pantheistic concepts of the Kabbalah. It would seem as if these occult disciplines put him on the correct path to empirical scientific knowledge.

Likewise, Einstein credited the mystic-philosopher Baruch Spinoza as being a primary inspiration.

Only to make one brief comment on the original post, Adam Weishaupt did not re-join the Roman Catholic Church, although this urban legend is often repeated by the faithful of that Church...similarly, Darwin never recanted his evolutionary theories, although it is claimed that he did so on his deathbed by some Christians. Both men died Deists, who believed strongly in God, but had little faith or trust in organized religion.

Fiat Lvx.

[edit on 24-11-2004 by Masonic Light]

ML the extent of your knowledge never seems to amaze me

Do you think the Illuminati groups throughout the years have always been the same group?

As I've posted I've read they were about in the 15th & 16th cents but were disbanded, they pop up again in the late 1700's, but are they the same, has some one read about the original group and tried to recreate it with his/her own ideals thrown in. And again now they are very much in the lime light, are they the same as the 1700's group, or the 15/16th century group, the statements made about the illuminati of today is power hungrry, no holds barred, aiming for world domination. Not the acting of a highly proned spiritual person like that of the earliest order.

I am intreged as to which variation of the illuminati people seem to think freemasonry is linked to.

Well, I don't really know anything about this subject at all, but I was on a website once that was a Freemason site, and there was a part that was password protected called "Illuminatum". That's not much, and I'm sure it doesn't help anything at all, but I thought I'd add my two cents.

Thanks for trying, the trouble I've found is the word illimunati and it's various spellings etc are used in numerous sites, group description and with many groups using latin in their motto's, slogans etc it is very hard to find valid info.

The fact it was a secure area, would make me presume that it was a section of the site strictly for masons, bit like moderator only sections on this site, and who ever designed the site used the enlightened one's persona to add mystisism to the section.

Originally posted by Bondi
Do you think the Illuminati groups throughout the years have always been the same group

I am intreged as to which variation of the illuminati people seem to think freemasonry is linked to.

Weishaupt's order was loosely connected to Masonry. Both Weishaupt and Von Knigge, his co-founder, were members of the Masonic Rite of Strict Observance, as were most of the other famous members of the Illuminati: Goethe, Mozart, Comte de St. Germaine, etc.

Weishupt's Illuminati consisted of 11 degrees, with the 4th, 5th, and 6th being the degrees of Blue Lodge Masonry. However, these three degrees were the only actual ceremonies performed by the Illuminati. Their higher degrees were never written, and their lower degrees only consisted of philosophical and scientific study; the candidate was required to write a research paper in order to advance to the next degree.

The other "Illuminatis" had no connection to Weishaupt's group except for the same name (at the time, "illuminati" was just a general term to refer to any group of people involved with the Enlightenment). Swedenbourg's Illuminati was popular in Denmark and Scandanavia. This Rite was Masonic, and focused basically on the study of the Kaballah and Alchemy.

Factual and eye opening as always ML.

Where do you get your stuff, you must have a library in your pocket

Let's get things straight, once and for all: The biggest lie is that the Illuminati consisted ONLY of the Bavarian Illuminati, so it was just an academic elitist group that died at the end of the 18th, leaving no traces but the ones of their past existence. So this assertion is a lie, as the lluminati existed through Europe as a secret society (or perhaps more a secret network) of highly educated and politically influent individuals, and it appeared wayyy before the Bavarian Illuminati were founded. As a matter of fact, the bavarian Illuminati is know this well only because the bavarian government,a few years before the French Revolution discovered a secret document containing sensitive infos on the nature of the Bavarian Illuminati, their whereabouts, interneal structure, and their plan to destroy monarchy and christianity all over Europe. But in Spain, France, England and Scotland, branches of the Illuminati were formed since the 16th century!!!

This was taken from wikipedia:

Alumbrados of Spain

To the former class belong the alumbrados of Spain. The historian Marcelino Men�ndez Pelayo found the name as early as 1492 (in the form aluminados, 1498). but traced them to a Gnostic origin, and thought their views were promoted in Spain through influences from Italy. One of their earliest leaders, born in Salamanca, a labourer's daughter known as La Beata de Piedrahita, came under the notice of the Inquisition in 1511, as claiming to hold colloquies with Jesus and the Virgin Mary; some high patronage saved her from a rigorous denunciation. (Men�ndez Pelayo, Los Heterodoxos Espanioles, 1881, vol. v.). Ignatius Loyola, while studying at Salamanca in 1527, was brought before an ecclesiastical commission on a charge of sympathy with the alumbrados, but escaped with an admonition. Others were not so fortunate. In 1529 a congregation of naive adherents at Toledo was subjected to whippings and imprisonment. Greater rigors followed, and for about a century the alumbrados sent many victims to the Inquisition, especially at Cordoba.


Illumin�s of France

The movement (under the name of Illumin�s) seems to have reached France from Seville in 1623, and attained some following in Picardy when joined (1634) by Pierce Guerin, cur� of Saint-Georges de Roye, whose followers, known as Gurinets, were suppressed in 1635.

A century later, another, more obscure body of Illumin�s came to light in the south of France in 1722, and appears to have lingered till 1794, having affinities with those known contemporaneously in Britain as 'French Prophets', an offshoot of the Camisards.


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Rosicrucians

A different class were the Rosicrucians, who claimed to originate in 1422, but rose into notice in 1537; a secret society, that claimed to combine with the mysteries of alchemy the possession of esoteric principles of religion. Their positions are embodied in three anonymous treatises of 1614, mentioned in Richard and Giraud, Dictionnaire universel des sciences eccl�siastiques. Paris 1825. Rosicrucians also claimed heritage from the Knights Templar and Priory of Sion.
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Martinists

Later, the title Illuminati was applied to the French Martinists which had been founded in 1754 by Martinez Pasqualis, and to their imitators the Russian Martinists, headed about 1790 by Professor Schwartz of Moscow; both were occultist cabalists and allegorists, absorbing eclectic ideas from Jakob Boehme and Emanuel Swedenborg.
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The Bavarian Illuminati
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History

A short-lived movement of republican freethinkers, the most radical offshoot of the Enlightenment, to whose adherents the name Illuminati was given, (but who called themselves "Perfectibilists"), was founded on May 1, 1776 by the ex-Jesuit Adam Weishaupt (d. 1830), professor of canon law, and Baron Adolph von Knigge, in Ingolstadt, Bavaria (now Germany). The group has also been called the Illuminati Order, the Order of the Illuminati, and the Bavarian Illuminati.

In the conservative state of Bavaria, where the progressive and enlightened elector Maximilian III Joseph von Wittelsbach was succeeded (1777) by his conservative heir Karl Theodor, and which was dominated by the Roman Catholic Church and the aristocracy, such an organization did not last long before it was suppressed by the powers that be. In 1784, the Bavarian government banned all secret societies including the Illuminati and the Freemasons. The structure of the Illuminati soon collapsed, but while it was in existence many influential intellectuals and progressive politicians counted themselves as members.

Its members, drawn primarily from Masons and former Masons, pledged obedience to their superiors, and were divided into three main classes: the first, known as the Nursery, encompassed the ascending degrees or offices of Preparation, Novice, Minerval and Illuminatus Minor; the second, known as the Masonry, consisting of the ascending degrees of Illuminatus Major and Illuminatus dirigens, the latter also sometimes called Scotch Knight; the third, designated the Mysteries, was subdivided into the degrees of the Lesser Mysteries (Presbyter and Regent) and those of the Greater Mysteries (Magus and Rex). Relations with masonic lodges were established at Munich and Freising in 1780.

The order had its branches in most countries of the European continent, but its total numbers never seem to have exceeded two thousand. The scheme had its attraction for literary men, such as Goethe and Herder, and even for the reigning dukes of Gotha and Weimar. Internal rupture preceded its downfall, which was effected by an edict of the Bavarian government in 1785.

Now I don't know what happened to the movement as of today, but since it was deeply rooted into the intellectual, financial and political "establishment" of the Renaissance era -and thus in direct relation with the culture and philosophy of these times (the 1600-1700s era in France is referred to as the Si�cle des Lumi�res" by today's historians... coincidence? Not at all), this movement moght have evolved to a different kind of network, or has just vanished with the French Revolution and the arrival of the industrial era. After all, once the bourgeois (capitalists industrials and bankers) had beaten the rule of the monarchs and the church, what reason did they have to keep on conspiring? Conspiring against what? The next conspiracy had to be either against capitalists forces of Europe-exactly what the anarchists did at the middle of the 19th century, and communists did later with the International and the bolcheviks- or either, into a revert order, against the democratic forces of the masses (society itself), such as the capitalist or keynesian State did with the arrival of the industrial era. Government, and more precisely the worldwide elite that is running it, is the new illuminist conspiracy... and now things are moving toward the global tyranny of supranational governments; the EU collaborating with the US, the US pushing for a supranatinal american state, and Russia pushing for an alliance with China, Brazil, Cuba and India. And now what's gonna come out as the winner into all this scary configuration of government-supported capitalistic global forces VS alliance of extremely resourceful and menacing socialist regimes? NWO!!!

Originally posted by Echtelion
Let's get things straight, once and for all: The biggest lie is that the Illuminati consisted ONLY of the Bavarian Illuminati,

I don't recall anyone making such a claim. There were various independent organizations who called themselves "Illuminati" during the Enlightenment. This was the period when the word "illuminati" came in vogue.

As a matter of fact, the bavarian Illuminati is know this well only because the bavarian government,a few years before the French Revolution discovered a secret document containing sensitive infos on the nature of the Bavarian Illuminati, their whereabouts, interneal structure, and their plan to destroy monarchy and christianity all over Europe. But in Spain, France, England and Scotland, branches of the Illuminati were formed since the 16th century!!!

This is incorrect. The Bavarian government did not find "secret documents", but in reality they didn't need them. The Bavarian government at the time was the Jesuit Electorate, and they had undercover agents who infiltrated the Illuminati, as well as the Masonic Lodges, from the Illuminati's conception. Weishaupt himself published all of the Illuminati's documents in his book "In Defense of Illuminism", several years after he disbanded the Order.

Needless to say, the Illuminati had no interest in "destroying Christianity." In fact, Weishaupt's deputy and cofounder in the Illuminati, Adolph Von Knigge, was a Lutheran minister. The Illuminati sought to separate church and state...only the most fanatical religious zealots would consider this "destroying Christianity."

It is true, however, that the Illuminati were anti-monarchical. They correctly believed that the "divine rights of kings" was a scam fostered on the people by the church, and that the people had the right to elect their own leaders.

reply to post by Echtelion


The illuminati are members of,
the Roman Catholic Church.