Russia declares war on Ukraine. Live updates from inside Ukraine

tsurfer2000h
reply to post by cosmonova

 

And lets face it since when US care about international law?
If is of any use for white house sure. But when ready to bomb some country they could not care less about UN approval.
'no fly zone' resolution over Lybia completely turned into destruction of the country and nothing to do with 'no fly zone'.
If no fly zone mean bombing souvereign country than UN is well overdue for either re haul or for dismantle.

Now, is it fair for you to complain about going off topic, yet you discuss the US an the UN when this is about Ukraine?

Just saying...

You are right

Russia is not responsible for the crisis in Ukraine. The US State Department engineered the fascist-backed coup that toppled Yanukovych.
The overriding goal of US policy in Ukraine is to stop further integration of Asia and Europe. That's what this fracas is really all about. US wants to control the flow of energy from East to West and it wants to ensure that deals are transacted in US dollars and recycled into US Treasuries.
The US is determined to play a dominant role in Eurasia in the years ahead and wreaking havoc in Ukraine is a central part of the plan. It has nothing to do with democracy, sovereignty or human rights! The USA has dragged itself from one quagmire to the next, laying entire countries to waste, hence the reason for this latest sloppily engineered coup that has left the country in chaos.
US wants regime change by weakening and dismembering Russia. They want to create a justification for carrying out their agenda which means they have to make Putin look like a dangerous aggressor. I sincerely hope that Putin resists the temptation of confrontation, however painful.
There is no 'pot of gold' at the end of the rainbow for the Ukrainian people unfortunately. They will be used, abused, pillaged and discarded once they have served their purpose. Their future is dire and it will be sad to note when they eventually come to
realise who the actual aggressor was.
Until this evil which is the USA, is brought to book, then the same holds true for all of our futures. Allowing/wishing a regime to be destroyed which could be one of our few lifelines to help eradicate this evil, will be a huge mistake.

reply to post by scotland48


I have to wonder how "the US gets the UN to do it's bidding" (paraphrasing) when both Russia and China have the veto?

Not sure how people think the UN works but last time I checked any one of the permanent members can use their veto to block a resolution they disagree with and, as far as I'm aware, a permanent member can't be kicked out of the UN.

If I post on this thread again I will try to stay on topic as there's already way too much propaganda and misinformation from both sides in between the genuinely informative posts from those "on the ground" in Ukraine.

Elysarian
reply to post by scotland48

 

If I post on this thread again I will try to stay on topic as there's already way too much propaganda and misinformation from both sides in between the genuinely informative posts from those "on the ground" in Ukraine.

I understand your frustration. I too value "on the ground" information. However, this thread appears to be completely taken over by the opinions of two specific posters. one of whom gives his location as being in USA? He/she therefore cannot be any better informed than the rest of us trying to sort out facts from propaganda.
I have given my opinion, which I am entitled to do, but from now on will only search for posts referencing actual experiences.

scotland48
Yes, the US sure pays well! They will always get the UN to do their bidding. It was obvious from the get go which direction things were going. Absolute waste of time.
Russia is not responsible for the crisis in Ukraine. The US State Department engineered the fascist-backed coup that toppled Yanukovych.
The overriding goal of US policy in Ukraine is to stop further integration of Asia and Europe. That's what this fracas is really all about. US wants to control the flow of energy from East to West and it wants to ensure that deals are transacted in US dollars and recycled into US Treasuries.
The US is determined to play a dominant role in Eurasia in the years ahead and wreaking havoc in Ukraine is a central part of the plan. It has nothing to do with democracy, sovereignty or human rights! The USA has dragged itself from one quagmire to the next, laying entire countries to waste, hence the reason for this latest sloppily engineered coup that has left the country in chaos.
US wants regime change by weakening and dismembering Russia. They want to create a justification for carrying out their agenda which means they have to make Putin look like a dangerous aggressor. I sincerely hope that Putin resists the temptation of confrontation, however painful.
There is no 'pot of gold' at the end of the rainbow for the Ukrainian people unfortunately. They will be used, abused, pillaged and discarded once they have served their purpose. Their future is dire and it will be sad to note when they eventually come to
realise who the actual aggressor was.
Until this evil which is the USA, is brought to book, then the same holds true for all of our futures. Allowing/wishing a regime to be destroyed which could be one of our few lifelines to help eradicate this evil, will be a huge mistake.

edit on 17-4-2014 by scotland48 because: (no reason given)

Hard to argue with this. Like a parasite you cannot get a rid of.
And they are getting desperate to grab Ukraine, regardless of the cost for the country and its people. It always amazes me how they find stooges in each country who are willing to sacrifice own people and play dirty games for White House.
But so far what they did is nothing to cheer about. Ukraine is deeply divided and big portion is sliding completely into Russian's sphere of interest. No amount of cookies from ms Nuland would be able to sway people of east and south of Ukraine to side with US
and EU.

I think it's about time this thread is returned to the op!

If the Russian trolls want to swipe every comment, then go open a new
thread that better fits your political leanings.

Oh yea.. we're still aloud to do that in the West..(disagree with our leaders).

reply to post by scotland48

Russia is not responsible for the crisis in Ukraine. The US State Department engineered the fascist-backed coup that toppled Yanukovych.

Then why are the actual fascists, Svoboda and Right Sector, continuing to cause trouble? This would make no sense if they and the government they are protesting are both western puppets. On the other hand, it is strong evidence that the fascist parties are being employed by Russia to create a crisis that can be exploited. Please explain why you think otherwise. No rumors, no propaganda, just analysis, please.

reply to post by scotland48


"Russia is not responsible for the crisis in Ukraine. The US State Department engineered the fascist-backed coup that toppled Yanukovych.
The overriding goal of US policy in Ukraine is to stop further integration of Asia and Europe."

Yes I agree and Russia was best friends with Germany before all this kicked off and won't be happy if trade is restricted by the action of the USA and this all comes soon after all the NSA spying on Germans that was used to steel trade secrets.

The BRICS are here to stay and the USA can clear off and start a war in its own back garden for me

DJW001
reply to post by scotland48

 

Russia is not responsible for the crisis in Ukraine. The US State Department engineered the fascist-backed coup that toppled Yanukovych.

Then why are the actual fascists, Svoboda and Right Sector, continuing to cause trouble? This would make no sense if they and the government they are protesting are both western puppets. On the other hand, it is strong evidence that the fascist parties are being employed by Russia to create a crisis that can be exploited. Please explain why you think otherwise. No rumors, no propaganda, just analysis, please.

Right sector was used for a violent part of the Maidan protest. They are not needed any more and west would be happy to get rid of them. But they are now quite big in numbers and want a piece of cake. That is why they want to become a party and get a voice in upcoming elections. And in regards to elections I cannot see it happening in current situation.
I would really like you to present the evidence that fascist parties are being employed by Russia. I have never heard of that claim.
They cannot stand Russians.

reply to post by rigel4


So now you have lost the debate you call people that don't agree with you "Russian trolls"

FTR I will carry that flag with honor if that's what it takes but if I am a troll then would it be fair to say that you have been spamming this thread and have had more than your fair say on the subject ?

Is the plan behind the insults to get the mods involved so that any pro Russian posts can be deleted or the posters get told off /banned ?

I've played that game before and I don't mind loosing

Your not going to bury this!

I think it's about time this thread is returned to the op!

If the Russian trolls want to swipe every comment, then go open a new
thread that better fits your political leanings.

Oh yea.. we're still aloud to do that in the West..(disagree with our leaders).

i]reply to post by rigel4


Absolutely. I come to ats especially on world events to see a broader scope of information. This thread in particular, since it is "live updates from inside". Yet I spend more time scrolling through ideological bickering than actual information on the events unfolding. That is extremely tiresome on a phone.

Meeting in Geneva has started. Ukraine, EU, Russia and US will try to find common language and de-escalate situation.
Or at least some of them.
This is the first time Russia has sat down to talk with Ukraine since Maidan.
I have to say that I have no idea why is US a part of this meeting.

reply to post by cosmonova

I would really like you to present the evidence that fascist parties are being employed by Russia. I have never heard of that claim.

It has been made over and over again in this thread. At least you are not outright denying it. Start reading here:

www.spiegel.de...

Ukraine Reporter @StateOfUkraine #Ukraine closed border: Ukraine notified #Aeroflot that henceforth entry will be denied to all #Russian citizens men aged 16 to 60 years 2 mins ago 15 retweets |

reply to post by cosmonova

I have to say that I have no idea why is US a part of this meeting.

I thought you thought the US is responsible for the whole crisis. Thank you for admitting that it is all Russia's doing.

DJW001
reply to post by scotland48

 

Russia is not responsible for the crisis in Ukraine. The US State Department engineered the fascist-backed coup that toppled Yanukovych.

Then why are the actual fascists, Svoboda and Right Sector, continuing to cause trouble? This would make no sense if they and the government they are protesting are both western puppets. On the other hand, it is strong evidence that the fascist parties are being employed by Russia to create a crisis that can be exploited. Please explain why you think otherwise. No rumors, no propaganda, just analysis, please.

If I have interpreted your question correctly: The EU accepted the Ukrainian government as a new partner.
As a precondition with an Interim Ukrainian government, the EU should have insisted that a party with extremist positions and practices like Svoboda shouldn't be a cooperation partner. Likewise, it should have been clear that such a party shouldn't be included in the construction of a provisional government. The agreement was signed anyway. Even the best EU assistance cannot bring about democracy in the Ukraine when anti-democratic forces exist in the government. Amid the turmoil of such social upheaval, it was expected that anti-democratic forces would come into play. Different agendas?

scotland48

DJW001
reply to post by scotland48

 

Russia is not responsible for the crisis in Ukraine. The US State Department engineered the fascist-backed coup that toppled Yanukovych.

Then why are the actual fascists, Svoboda and Right Sector, continuing to cause trouble? This would make no sense if they and the government they are protesting are both western puppets. On the other hand, it is strong evidence that the fascist parties are being employed by Russia to create a crisis that can be exploited. Please explain why you think otherwise. No rumors, no propaganda, just analysis, please.

If I have interpreted your question correctly: The EU accepted the Ukrainian government as a new partner.
As a precondition with an Interim Ukrainian government, the EU should have insisted that a party with extremist positions and practices like Svoboda shouldn't be a cooperation partner. Likewise, it should have been clear that such a party shouldn't be included in the construction of a provisional government. The agreement was signed anyway. Even the best EU assistance cannot bring about democracy in the Ukraine when anti-democratic forces exist in the government. Amid the turmoil of such social upheaval, it was expected that anti-democratic forces would come into play. Different agendas?

You don't seem to understand the concept of "democracy." In a democratic society, conditions are not imposed from outside. Also, in a democratic society, political opinions cannot be discriminated against. Svoboda and Right Sector cannot be banned for their beliefs. Individual members of these parties can be jailed for criminal acts.

The depth of your ignorance of the nature of democratic societies explains your acceptance of Russia's actions. Russia has been imposing conditions on the people of Crimea and Ukraine from outside. They presented Crimea with a choice between the status quo and enslavement to Moscow, without offering the possibility of independence. Until another referendum is held in the absence of Russian troops, no nation that practices a form of democratic government will accept its validity. Ever.

Ukraine Reporter @StateOfUkraine #Slavyansk : pro-#Russians seized local TV station and turned off all #Ukrainian channels and started streaming #Russian channels 6 mins ago 9 retweets |

Ukraine Reporter @StateOfUkraine #Stakhanovo: about 100 pro-#Russins are about to storm police dept, man organized seizure in #Lugansk with megaphone youtube.com/watch?v=ps1AeT… 3 mins ago 8 retweets |

Note its a town in Lugansk oblast. Seems like Donetsk oblast towns takeover repeat

KyivPost @KyivPost LIVE UPDATE: 100 pro-Russian separatists heading toward Donetsk Airport kyivpost.com/content/ukrain… #Ukraine 18 mins ago 11 retweets |

Note, its the main city airport, not the previous airfield they captured.

5:19 p.m. – Pro-Russian separatists placed a radar stolen from the Kramatorsk airfield in front of the Slovyansk City Council, reports Novosti Donbass. – Mark Rachkevych