According to Wiki, HAMAS is the same as "Palestinians"

As of 8 May 2024, over 36,000 people (34,844 Palestinian[1] and 1,410 Israeli[9]) have been reported as killed in the Israel–Hamas war, including 97 journalists (92 Palestinian, 2 Israeli and 3 Lebanese)[10] and over 224 humanitarian aid workers, including 179 employees of UNRWA.[11]

The vast majority of casualties have been in the Gaza Strip. The death toll reported by the UN OCHA comes from the Gaza Health Ministry.[12] The breakdown of the figures in the UN OCHA report only includes casualties whose identities have been confirmed while the overall figure is the number of reported deaths.[13] According to several articles, the total death toll in Gaza is presumed to be higher than reported,[14][15] with thousands remaining unaccounted for, including those trapped under rubble.[16]

en.wikipedia.org...

Now I am aware that using wiki as a source for anything is poor form. Anyone can alter the content. But with the murky waters of the Israel war that HAMAS started on October 7th, 2023, there are many questions. It's been said by many who are against Israel defending itself that the reason is the death toll in GAZA is too high and Israel is comitting genocide. Meaning they are going into GAZA with the intent to kill every resident there. That doesn't appear to be the case, but it's what's being said.

A counter argument is that the people of GAZA are sypathetic to HAMAS, and support their outwardly stated desire to kill every last Jew in Israel and around the world. (this is what they want, they say it out loud)www.adl.org...

Some say that most people in GAZA are fighting against Israel and therefore, emeny combatants. That sounds a bit fantastic, and otherwise wouldn't seem correct. Except for the part where almost all the reporting of deaths don't include the number of HAMAS fighters. Why would that be? It's a war, one that HAMAS started. In a war there are war fighters, and unfortunately, civilians. If you look at any war, you will find the people who live where the war is, die. Death due to war is stupid on it's face. War is stupid on it's face. But until the human race understands that, there will be war. And there will be civilian deaths. The trick is to find a way to limit them. Like not firing rockets from a location with women and children, knowing that a retalitory strike would put them in harms way. Unless that was the goal all along.

TLDR version, those giving "official numbers" appear to be saying there is no distinction between HAMAS and Palestinians. If there is a difference, the numbers should reflect that.

a reply to: network dude

'the total death toll in the Iraq War is estimated to be between 460,000 to 1,700,000 people'

I find myself wonder if there would be so much outrage if the war were slowly as waged like people seem to be accoustomed to and more accepting of.

a reply to: network dude

From experience...in Dearborn, the Palestinians in general....the families...do not approve with nor want, Hamas. See my recent thread yesterday.

The average Palestinian...unless the young indoctrinated men...does not associate freedom with Hamas, but death and destruction.

The average Palestinian family wants to live in Peace without War. The could not, so the family came here...

a reply to: mysterioustranger

it's a shame none of them say anything about it. And it's a shame they seem to be letting the reporting make it look like they all totally support HAMAS, even to the point of including HAMAS deaths with the civilian deaths to pad the numbers, ......unless it's all true, and your example is an outlier.

a reply to: network dude

I didn’t see where it said that all Palestinians are Hamas there, but I did see-

In December, Israel's military said it estimated 66% of those killed to be civilians.

I don’t necessarily put a lot of stock into any of the figures coming out. But with all the estimates we have available, if you average them out, it doesn’t seem like this war is any different than most modern wars. In fact, so far it isn’t as bad as say Yemen or Myanmar.

This war is different though because it’s a western aligned country. Whether or not that’s fair doesn’t change the fact the optics will be different.

If things trended the way they are, I’m not going to lose any sleep.

That said, I think one concern is what’s the plan? And I think the simple answer is no one has one. I think the chances of “destroying Hamas” are pretty low. A lot of them aren’t even in Gaza, and as America has learned even if they are it’s very hard to kill an idea.

Even if they do, there’s going to be a lot of kids growing up without family. My guess is they’ll put that blame on Israel and miss the nuance of what Hamas did to start this recent flare up in the conflict. So even if Hamas is defeated, there will be a new brand who blames Israel for their situation. If I was born in Palestine, I’m curious what my world view would be. I imagine it would be hard not to have harsh feelings towards the nation in power when you live in a prison state.

To me, it looks like coexistence isn’t looking promising. And I don’t see any possibilities of Palestinians relocating. So my guess is just cycles of breaks in hostilities and outright conflict.

a reply to: network dude

It's a shame that you seem to only see one side of the issue. You may read the other but you don't actually read it.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

with the propaganda on both sides (see also- lies) it's very hard to understand any of this, and those who claim to, are likely ate up with the stupid. But when trying to understand why people are going as far as siding with a terrorist organization, the key factor seems to be "genocide" committed by Israel. To make that claim, death toll numbers are used. Now if it was said that half of the deaths were civilian and the other half HAMAS, it might sound believable, knowing how it's been reported over the years how HAMAS and others in that area fight, by using civilians as shields, and then martyrs for their cause once they assume room temperature.

All I am doing with this thread is hilighting the part where an obvious lie exists, and to propogate that lie, makes the other lie seem true. (the other lie being everyone in GAZA is HAMAS.)

It's irony that can't be ignored.

originally posted by: budzprime69
a reply to: network dude

It's a shame that you seem to only see one side of the issue. You may read the other but you don't actually read it.

splain it to me. You are always so well spoken, do me a solid and school me.

a reply to: network dude

I get that. I think the term genocide has likely been said in America more in the past few months than ever before.

Hell, even here you can’t have a hot take without being accused of wanting to genocide the Jews. Sad state of affairs.

The argument about Palestine and Israel is always the proverbial chicken and the egg. Who was there first and who started the hostilities. The answer if everyone agreed on one, wouldn’t change the fact there are two neighbors who have no sign of ending hostilities.

All peace deals have failed, and none of the wars have changed anything aside from buying a decade or two of relative calming.

I’d be shocked if anything gets “figured out” in my lifetime. No one is going to take the Palestinians, and history shows that people who live under occupation or rule (real or perceived) always push back.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

Yea, I mentioned a while back about not being able to be critical of Israel in any way, or be listed as (that word), and that part is as wrong as any of the other garbage.

But the propoganda appears to have hit a wall. They can't have massive numbers to beat Israel over the head with, and not capitulate to the idea that the numbers listed seem to indicate everyone is either totally innocent, or totally guilty. And neither seems logical. At some point, these DERPs will have to bump into the truth.

Palestinians elected Hamas to be their leaders in Gaza.

a reply to: network dude

I think one of the biggest problems as always is the extremists and people who cling to hyperbole make the debate impossible.

While I don’t think Israel is intent on committing a genocide, there’s going to be huge problems ahead. What are they going to do with the large amounts of the population that don’t have homes to go back to? Who’s going to rebuild the infrastructure? What’s going to happen to millions of people?

I get that many people have no sympathy for the civilians, or just don’t see them as civilians, and that’s fine. But it won’t change the fact something will have to be done.

Many don’t think Israel should have to quarterback the rebuilding efforts, many of them American. So my guess is we’ll pick up the tab.

I’m usually pretty critical of our foreign policy, but one thing I’ll say is we usually attempt to clean up after we wage war. Evidence of that is Japan and Germany are in the top ten economies and both Allies. Vietnam is in the top five countries for receiving US aid and has good relations currently. Iraq and Afghanistan both received large amounts of aid and we had efforts to build up their infrastructure, though with them I’ll be shocked if differences in ideology allow for normalized relations.

a reply to: network dude

Honest to God N.D? The young men? Look out. If they migrated here...they were little boys throwing stones over there. You see them and 'Death to America"? They mean it.

And all the young men, hang in male family groups next door to usually the family women, girls, kids, babies.

Families? Wonderful people, always...always treated me well...and as just another "brother".

With them and me? Blood is red worldwide. And God....makes no distinction between those who have it. (Everyone!)

originally posted by: network dude

As of 8 May 2024, over 36,000 people (34,844 Palestinian[1] and 1,410 Israeli[9]) have been reported as killed in the Israel–Hamas war, including 97 journalists (92 Palestinian, 2 Israeli and 3 Lebanese)[10] and over 224 humanitarian aid workers, including 179 employees of UNRWA.[11]

The vast majority of casualties have been in the Gaza Strip. The death toll reported by the UN OCHA comes from the Gaza Health Ministry.[12] The breakdown of the figures in the UN OCHA report only includes casualties whose identities have been confirmed while the overall figure is the number of reported deaths.[13] According to several articles, the total death toll in Gaza is presumed to be higher than reported,[14][15] with thousands remaining unaccounted for, including those trapped under rubble.[16]

en.wikipedia.org...

Now I am aware that using wiki as a source for anything is poor form. Anyone can alter the content. But with the murky waters of the Israel war that HAMAS started on October 7th, 2023, there are many questions. It's been said by many who are against Israel defending itself that the reason is the death toll in GAZA is too high and Israel is comitting genocide. Meaning they are going into GAZA with the intent to kill every resident there. That doesn't appear to be the case, but it's what's being said.

A counter argument is that the people of GAZA are sypathetic to HAMAS, and support their outwardly stated desire to kill every last Jew in Israel and around the world. (this is what they want, they say it out loud)www.adl.org...

Some say that most people in GAZA are fighting against Israel and therefore, emeny combatants. That sounds a bit fantastic, and otherwise wouldn't seem correct. Except for the part where almost all the reporting of deaths don't include the number of HAMAS fighters. Why would that be? It's a war, one that HAMAS started. In a war there are war fighters, and unfortunately, civilians. If you look at any war, you will find the people who live where the war is, die. Death due to war is stupid on it's face. War is stupid on it's face. But until the human race understands that, there will be war. And there will be civilian deaths. The trick is to find a way to limit them. Like not firing rockets from a location with women and children, knowing that a retalitory strike would put them in harms way. Unless that was the goal all along.

TLDR version, those giving "official numbers" appear to be saying there is no distinction between HAMAS and Palestinians. If there is a difference, the numbers should reflect that.

Not true. This isn't what it says.

Netanyahou is probably trying to inflate the number of dead combatants and deflate the number of civilians. However either Netanyahou or the IDF are not telling the truth the way it is.

The IDF has given a ratio of 2:1 number of civilian deaths to the number of combatants. If were to use what Netanyahou said i.e that 14,000 combatants have died then this leaves us with 28,000 dead civilians. The 1:1 ratio is something not even the IDF believes to be true.

The UN has given the number to be around 36,000 dead and the same ratio applies although it could be higher if you recall other sources that are not coming from Israel. The UN hasn't counted those missing or those who are under the rumble.

In December, Israel's military said it estimated 66% of those killed to be civilians. Even the conservative figure of 61 percent is higher than the average civilian death rate in all world conflicts "from the Second World War to the 1990s

en.wikipedia.org...

Netanyahu has repeatedly said the military is on track to eliminate Hamas, and in an interview with Dr. Phil on Friday claimed that 14,000 Hamas fighters have so far been killed. Israel estimated Gaza to have 30,000 fighters

www.cnn.com...

a reply to: CriticalStinker

while not the focus of this thread, the part where nobody seems to want the "Palestininans" seems to be the crux of the problem. Israel could offer the "two state solution", but if the other side is governed by a known terrorist organizatoin (HAMAS) then to think this won't keep taking place is silly. The answer? I sure as # don't know it. But the problem is pretty clear. Everyone in that area seems to want Israel gone. And if they were to get that, they would focus on some other area. They don't seem content with just existing. (and while I'm not a scholar on the topic, I am aware Israel has done bad things in the past, I just won't entertain that as an excuse to start a new war with them)

Rebuilding GAZA will be dificult and expensive, and it's likely if they did that, and made it nice and pretty, there would just be a new war. But that appears to be the direction the majority want to go. I wish that weren't the case.

a reply to: network dude.
That's not true either.
Most people in that area want peace and prosperity.

And most people don't want an ethnosupremacist and apartheid State that occupies their land.

a reply to: network dude

I think the sad reality is the outcome will always be rinse and repeat.

I don’t think either side of the conflict is entertaining a two state solution right now. And even if they did, I’m sure there would be hard conditions for the Palestinian side like no standing military, and Israel is responsible for their defense. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was restrictions on travel and other aspects that most sovereign nations get to decide on their own.

Whether or not those conditions are fair wouldn’t change the fact it would still leave deep seated resentment, and we all have seen where that leads.

As for how the world and America views it all, I imagine it will be with more hyperbole than nuance, and the cycle just continues.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

Who started the hostilities is only a mystery to the ignorant. They attacked the jews the day they moved in. Learn something today.
But how about this. "From sea to shining see, we will be illegal immigrant free." Let's kidnap their children, r*pe their women, and torture their elderly! When we're done we can lock ourselves in hospitals and schools, using children's human shields while we continue to attack! If anyone does anything about it we'll gomet some trust fund babies to go on a hunger strike for two whole days and scream genocide!

originally posted by: Boogerpicker
a reply to: CriticalStinker

Who started the hostilities is only a mystery to the ignorant. They attacked the jews the day they moved in. Learn something today.

I noted that it was a talking point more than I stated what my position or opinion on it was.

But you should be careful with your language. You make it sound like Israelis weren’t always there. You could really piss some people off with statements like that.

originally posted by: Anyrven
Most people in that area want peace and prosperity.

Their version of 'peace' is Israel no longer existing and the Jews genocided.
So your post, as usual, is disingenuous.

Things You Find in "Civilian" Gaza Homes

Major Roy Yanovsky, head of the Channel 13 News investigative desk, who is on reserve duty with the 7007th Reserve Battalion in Gaza, posted pictures of what he and other soldiers found in Gaza houses.

“Things you find in Gaza homes:” Yanovsky wrote, starting a thread and noting that the most common items were RPG missiles and Kalashnikov rifles. “The supply is highly impressive.” The second common item is explosive charges. “It’s hard to find a street without a house that has several ready-to-use, including vests, uniforms, and pretty impressive combat equipment,” he added. Yanovsky also found Russian 122 mm Grad missiles in Gaza homes, as well as a calendar with a photo of kidnapped IDF soldier Gilad Shalit and a book about the bloody Second Intifada.

Yanovsky also found “A coloring book for children that begins with a description of the Nakba, a ‘Map of Palestine’ with the monitored borders and no mention of Israel.” This “is found in almost every home,” he stressed. Yanovsky ended the thread with what he claims is “the most important finding – a transistor radio that picks up Reshet Bet everywhere and in every dungeon. The soldiers huddle around it in silence as they have the opportunity to catch up on hourly local news. This makes it possible to maintain sanity and connection to the outside world.

The End OF The Jews - Childrens Book Taught to Gazan Children
Childrens book found in Gaza.
Teaching Gazan children to slaughter the Jews.
A few screen shots of childrens TV shows is shown too.
It's all about the slaughter of Jews.