Does anyone else get the sense that something downright miraculous might be up ahead?

a reply to: FlyersFan

No 'miracles' have ever been verified by science. Do you know why is this?

You keep arguing there are actual miracles caused by supernatural forces. There is not a shred of evidence that supernatural forces exist and ate responsible for these 'miracles' of yours.

originally posted by: NovemberHemisphere
It is well known that the so called 'miracles' confirmed by the vatican are deliberate frauds

No. That's not true.

naive people like you....you're probably just a twat who was raised by charlatans.. are straight f*cking charlatans- ... for an ignorant twat....how asinine you would have to be ... you really dumb enough... gullibility of people just like you

Lots of name calling, snotty remarks, and claims that are untrue.

Then you have the audacity to site the notoriously fraudulent lourdes

There is nothing fraudulent about Lourdes.

the vatican bureau along with willing doctors fabricated the entire medical histories,

Again untrue.

Mother terasa took a vow of poverty when she became a nun, despite that her net worth at the time of her death exceeded 100 million ...

She had no personal wealth. So again, untrue.

You are batting zero.
You called me a liar and demanded evidence.
I have supplied it.
You make up stories against it and reject it.
Your choice.
The information stands.

originally posted by: Venkuish1
No 'miracles' have ever been verified by science.

Actually, they have. And I gave links to them. Verified that there is no medical or scientific explanation for the cures. YOU choose to believe there is some natural explanation that we don't understand yet. I disagree. When a cure is impossible, and then after prayer an instant cure happens, it is a miracle.

originally posted by: NovemberHemisphere

originally posted by: FlyersFan
Atheists just say that they are natural cures that we don't understand yet. However, we do understand science, medicine, parkinsons, and how cancer works well enough to know that it doesn't instantly disappear after being prayed on.

So no. I'm not a liar. You choose to believe that there is some mystery natural cure to these things that hasn't been discovered. That's your choice.

It is well known that the so called 'miracles' confirmed by the vatican are deliberate frauds created for naive people like you. I'm sorry, you're not a liar if you sincerely believe in this drivel- you're probably just a twat who was raised by charlatans. I'd be willing to bet the people who you loved/respected the most in your early life are straight f*cking charlatans- it's so typical in this country.

No. God intercedes sometimes, but usually He doesn't.
Why? That's God's business. We don't know the mind of God.
Just because everyone doesn't receive a miracle doesn't mean they don't exist

Another convenient excuse for an ignorant twat. Gee, that just happens to be virtually identical to a world of naturally occurring chaos where no 'god' exists- the mental gymnastics are absurd to say the least. I wonder, do you believe in the miracle stories of other religions? Islam has confirmed many miracles including when the quran was revealed to the muslim 'prophet' muhammad by 'god' himself. It would be amusing to watch you and a muslim go back and forth over such patently invented nonsense, arguing who's miracles are true like young children. Are you really dumb enough to think that a completely corrupt institution like the vatican is some kind of authority on scientific confirmation?


Then you have the audacity to site the notoriously fraudulent lourdes and mother teresa as your sources while telling me 'google is your friend'? It is impressive how asinine you would have to be as to not even do basic research on your own sources while sarcastically suggesting 'google is your friend'.

"It is estimated that in recent years about 5 million pilgrims a year visit the shrine at Lourdes. Over the past 150 years, some 200 million people have made the pilgrimage." That is a success rate of .0000335%, or 1 out of every 3 million. Since 1947, any claims of a miraculous cure has to go before a medical board. "From 1947 to 1990, only 1,000 cures were claimed and only 56 were recognized in that time, averaging 1.3 cures a year, against 57 a year before 1914." Since 1978, there have been only four recognized cures- the vatican bureau along with willing doctors fabricated the entire medical histories, some of which go back several decades.

Mother terasa took a vow of poverty when she became a nun, despite that her net worth at the time of her death exceeded 100 million (investigative reports and a book by Italian journalist Gianluigi Nuzzi shed light on her secret bank accounts). Her charity was one of the world's richest organizations but no one actually knows where the bulk of the money went. It was also reported that much like with lourdes, her facility was found not to follow basic medical protocols such as quarantining contagious patients- many more people became more ill or died from infection than were ever cured as a result of congregating at those facilities. Mother teresa believed that agony brought her followers closer to 'god' and she likened their suffering to christ on the cross. In the worst years, she encouraged and condoned suffering; even within her ‘hospitals’ and ‘orphanages’. This abuse was especially rife in India, where she publicly bragged about coercing vulnerable people into converting to christianity on their deathbeds.

Conversely, when she needed medical attention, she went to the best medical clinics in the world. Mother teresa’s bedroom in the vatican's 'motherhouse' was fitted with the most expensive, sophisticated cardiac equipment that only royalty or billionaires could afford. On her own deathbed she was more than happy to accept the very best medical care that could be offered to her. The good things you hear about mother teresa are the result of 35 years of aggressive campaigning by the catholic church- designed to garner support from naive people like yourself. She spent much of her life campaigning against women’s rights, of course using the bible as a source of authority. Qualified doctors who visited her facilities were reported as being horrified and appalled at their conditions; medical care was administered by volunteers with no medical training, hygiene was neglected, needles were reused until they became blunt, pain management protocols did not exist and staff were not able to make distinctions between those who were dying, and those who had curable illnesses. The vatican made sure there were plenty of pictures of her with the poor holding children and other propaganda, however, she spent very little time with the masses, instead preferring the company of India’s rich and influential. To this day, money continues to be an issue with the ‘missionaries of charity’ that mother teresa established in 1950. They refuse to publish their accounts in India, where it is required by law. When asked to do the same in Germany, they responded that it was “none of their business”. It's all money-making schemes as usual, which relies on the gullibility of people just like you.

Same arguments again and again. Unknowns and gaps in scientific knowledge are given supernatural causes and cancer 'cures' due to praying really hard.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: Venkuish1
No 'miracles' have ever been verified by science.

Actually, they have. And I gave links to them. Verified that there is no medical or scientific explanation for the cures. YOU choose to believe there is some natural explanation that we don't understand yet. I disagree. When a cure is impossible, and then after prayer an instant cure happens, it is a miracle.

Unknowns in our understanding don't imply the presence of magical forces. That's a flawed argument and history has shown whatever was attributed to magic and the supernatural turned out not be magical and supernatural. I don't choose to 'believe' in rational thinking and logic. These are the key ingredients of modern day societies that are free from superstition.

originally posted by: FlyersFan
Instant. Impossible. Prayed to God. Verified miracles happened.
Google is your friend. TONS of verified miracles available to read.

I do not think the word 'verified' means what you think it means. You literally used the incident with mother teresa's first proclaimed miracle and Monica Besra- a known fraudulent case that was orchestrated solely because it allowed mother teresa to consider herself a saint. Doctors and the state health minister in India debunked it when it happened. They have long maintained that Besra had been suffering from a cyst, not a cancerous tumor.


"On September 5, Besra was praying in the Missionaries of Charity chapel when she saw a light emanating from a photo of Mother Teresa. Later, a medallion that had touched Mother Teresa's body was placed on Besra's abdomen, and a sister said a prayer while asking Mother Teresa for help. Besra awoke early the next day to find her tumor had disappeared."


You can't really believe that nonsense? This is literally christian fan-fic again- and you pretend like you present evidence and people should take you seriously and treat you with respect. Your posts are an insult to the intelligence of anyone who reads them- even children.

a reply to: NovemberHemisphere

So my multiliguality is the topic?

/sarc Glad you could go for the ball and not the player and so glad to see you manage to stay polite and all /sarc

It becomes kind of unimportant what you say when one realizes you're not here to openly and honestly discuss the topic but are actually here to showcase a lack of manners.

a reply to: Venkuish1

That is right! Anything sufficiently advanced or complex natural or not will appear like magic...

Science is slowly realizing there is something where they assumed nothing, while religions are slowly realizing that there is nothing where they assumed something...

I guess this thread is sort of a therapeutic thing to the two fractions...

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: Venkuish1

That is right! Anything sufficiently advanced or complex natural or not will appear like magic...

Science is slowly realizing there is something where they assumed nothing, while religions are slowly realizing that there is nothing where they assumed something...

I guess this thread is sort of a therapeutic thing to the two fractions...

Science and religion are not two faces of the same coin and I think you are mistaken putting them into the same basket.

Science hasn't assumed nothing and now gets something as you said. Science builds up on the presence of evidence. That's the difference between science and religion, the latter relies on revelation and blind religious faith in the absence of evidence.

a reply to: Venkuish1

Thats like a left wing nut ensuring me it's not a uniparty...

The reasons someone can't see it are always the same, mainly the effect echo chambers have on our psyche...

Their methods are diffrent their goal is the same, controlling the narrative of this persistent illusion we live...

a reply to: NovemberHemisphere

Meh...
here we go with the adhominem... Calling others delusional because you can't argue what they wrote sure makes you look like an expert in delusions...

Strange, no one ever got a post taken down for manners violations when doing that...

I would Postulate that you can only truly know what you have witnessed and even then your mind can play plenty of tricks on you when turning the witnessed into truth.
Makes it really hard to define what one really knows when 90% is 3rd hand knowledge.

I unlike you know that i know nothing, which gives me the freedom to think about anything anyhow it pleases me....

Mental shackles... Another commonality

originally posted by: FlyersFan

Mother Teresa Miracles for Sainthood

Cases of reported curative miracles are examined by the Catholic Church's Congregation for the Causes of Saints and a committee of medical specialists. If it can be shown the recovery fell outside the laws of nature with no scientific explanation, the prospective saint's intercession with God is considered to have brought about a cure.

In 1998, Monica Besra went to a Missionaries of Charity home in West Bengal, India, as she had a fever, headaches, vomiting, and swollen stomach. She had begun treatment for tuberculous meningitis the year before. However, the medications she'd taken — intermittently, depending on what her family could afford — hadn't kept a lump from growing in her abdomen (though some reports have described Besra as suffering from cancerous tumors, the growth could have been caused by tuberculosis). Surgery was deemed necessary, but Besra was too weak and unwell to undergo an operation.

On September 5, Besra was praying in the Missionaries of Charity chapel when she saw a light emanating from a photo of Mother Teresa. Later, a medallion that had touched Mother Teresa's body was placed on Besra's abdomen, and a sister said a prayer while asking Mother Teresa for help. Besra awoke early the next day to find her tumor had disappeared. Medical exams showed the abdominal mass was no longer there, and the doctors she'd seen agreed Besra no longer. ANOTHER MIRACLE CURE AT THE LINK

Instant. Impossible. Prayed to God. Verified miracles happened.
Google is your friend. TONS of verified miracles available to read.

Now you could say Penn & Teller are not the best source, and even Hitchens has been known to make historical inaccuracies in his writings and I would mostly agree with that. I am however inclined to believe this account of mother teresa because there is in fact no trace of much of the money donated to her charities- most of it is assumed to be kept in the vatican bank (they hide a lot of money for criminals around the world- the vatican is a sovereign juridical entity under international law). I would instead focus on the validity of Aroup Chatterjee and his book about teresa as they draw much of their inference from his work. Also consider the vast amount of images and documented cases of mother teresa spending her time with the elites who actively exploit the people she was supposedly helping. The fact that when she got sick, she chose to go to the best American hospitals to receive the best medicine and care the vatican's stolen millions could buy.... The vatican would not risk their cash cow dying with the poor and sickly in a vain attempt to 'suffer as christ did', that is clearly evident.


She did not work to fight poverty, she lied to donors about how charities were spent, encouraged the sick to suffer- as she believed suffering was a gift from 'god'- but opted for advanced medical treatment from the best facilities in America for herself. Out of the billions she collected, only a tiny percentage went to the stated purpose. Less than half of the collected charitable (nontaxable) funds would have been necessary to fund adequate medical facilities and proper care at all of her hospices.

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: Venkuish1

Thats like a left wing nut ensuring me it's not a uniparty...

The reasons someone can't see it are always the same, mainly the effect echo chambers have on our psyche...

Their methods are diffrent their goal is the same, controlling the narrative of this persistent illusion we live...

Religion's goal is the control and manipulation of the masses. That's not the scope of science and all of us know it. To argue they have the same aim or they are the two faces of the same coin is rather disingenuous.

Religion doesn't have methods. It requires from you blind faith in the absence of evidence and acceptance of dogma through revelation.

a reply to: FlyersFan

There is nothing that will stop science to one day explain what exactly happens when the unexplainable happens, even if it needs to proof itself fundamentally wrong, or is there?

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: FlyersFan

There is nothing that will stop science to one day explain what exactly happens when the unexplainable happens, even if it needs to proof itself fundamentally wrong, or is there?

How could science possibly prove itself to be fundamentally wrong? It's literally just observation at it's very core- it's not a static ideology or some other such nonsense- it's a fully dynamic, ever changing perspective on the world around us based on evidence. What tenants of science could science possibly prove wrong about itself? When new evidence comes to play, if it is stronger evidence than the previous- we change the whole model. Science is completely dynamic..

a reply to: NovemberHemisphere

It's more telling that some have an issue with abstract opinions and have to attack them. It speaks for a very weak foundation of their own opinion...

you interjected a post that wasn't adressed at you, where I pointed out the antisocial behavior prevalent in this thread.
Felt adressed? I wonder why...
of course it brings noting to the discussion.

Carry on...