UK - Elderly 'Do Not Attempt Resuscitation' as standard

I've removed the name of the hospital as I'm unsure of the legals. Equally, I know the hospital and have a high regard for the standard of care.

Ok this was a post on Facebook -

"I found out today after visiting my mother in XXXXXNHS Hospital and finding a DNAR (Do Not Attempt Resuscitation) form on her records that it's become common practice for hospital doctors to fill out these forms routinely. This is the 2nd time it's happened.

So be aware, if you have an elderly or very sick loved one in hospital they may well of had one of these forms completed without there knowledge or consent."

I haven't seen this get publicity before, but IF true it is, I think a big thing, so I'm giving it some.

Anyone else heard of this in the UK?

a reply to: Partridge

I sort of recall something being in the news a while back but I can't find it at present and I can't remember the exact details - advancing years on my behalf?

When I was in hospital a couple of years ago I demanded that the Doctors were fully transparent with me and kept nothing from me. I got them and the nurses to show me exactly what my notes and charts meant so that I could monitor my own progress myself.

The Nursing staff were fantastic but the Doctors did not like their authority being challenged - I told them in no uncertain terms that anything regarding my health and well being had to be brought to my attention as soon as practically possible.

I was on a ward at the time with other patients and after a few days I noticed a couple of other patients questioning notes etc.
It was then that I was shipped off to a separate room all by myself where I spent over 40 days in total isolation.

I've since encouraged anyone I know who is going in hospital to quiz staff about all the bedside notes etc .

Do not resuscitate should not be the default setting.

In the US since Nixon got the law changed so hospitals could become 'for profit' institutions they slowly became just like any other big business, with financial gain being the number one objective.

Hospitals have an administrator who sets the policies doctors MUST follow; if the admoinistrator says no off-lable medicine can be used (such as Ivermetin durring Covid, or any 'experimental treatment) that is the protocol doctors must follow.

Few Hospitals adminiatrator have any medical traing; they're highly skilled financial experts trained to maxamize profit.

It takes 1-14 years to become a fully licensed doctor and ovet a quarter of a million dollars in educational fees, so it's understandable why they don't/can't/won't buck the system. They do the best they can within the guidlines they're forced to follow.

I can't help but think every time a patient has an automatic DNI removed administration sees it as a black mark against the attending physician.

To maximise profit in ANY business, you have to think in terms of numbers only, so humans become a number. To allow emotional involvement with those nubers by considering the human aspect, profit will decrease exponentially.

I don't blame the doctors for the corner they've been painted into; they have lives and careers that would end if they went against protocol for one patient that they may or may not be able to save versus all the many patients they are able to save when following their strict guidelines.

originally posted by: nugget1
I don't blame the doctors for the corner they've been painted into; they have lives and careers that would end if they went against protocol for one patient that they may or may not be able to save versus all the many patients they are able to save when following their strict guidelines.

I absolutely do blame them. In every way, for every thing. If they had all taken a stand, the only thing that would have happened is the Administrator would have been frustrated.

I think you didn't really think this through, because what you are actually saying is that you believe that the current legal maxim that 'I was just following orders' that was developed from the Nuremberg Trials is wrong, and that 'I was just following orders' is an excuse for torture and murder.

Is that really the position you want to take?

a reply to: nugget1

"To maximise profit in ANY business, you have to think in terms of numbers only, so humans become a number. To allow emotional involvement with those nubers by considering the human aspect, profit will decrease exponentially."

In the UK, the subject of this thread, the NHS is not a business and makes no profit. Quite the opposite.

I believe we're going to see more of this in the UK. During COVID I heard a rumour that DNARs were being levied against all patients who suffered a chronic illness of any sort. I sent a very pointed email to my doctors demanding to know if there was a DNAR on my notes (I have a chronic illness), and if there was, to have it removed post haste. I did get an email back denying that there was a DNAR against my record, but who's to know whether there was & they just removed it because I complained?

I have an elderly aunt who lives with us most of the year & she has all medical care up here when she stays with us as she was mistreated in London repeatedly. I'm going to email our doctors again now to make sure there's no DNAR on her file. I have a strong suspicion my Dad died of the vaccine side effects, so I really don't trust the UK medical system at present, or indeed any medical system anywhere in the world to be perfectly honest.

I heard it said that 5% of doctors are great & conscientious people, and 5% are scurrilous sadists who are fully on board with the eugenics policies of the new world order. The remaining 90% are rule followers who will not buck the system. Guess which 5% is in charge of that other 90%...? Yes, you guessed it, it's NOT the kind & compassionate ones. Murder by giving patients a 'good death' is now commonplace, despite claims that the so-called Liverpool pathway was abandoned years ago. COVID changed everything.

a reply to: Partridge

Depopulation event is in place..

a reply to: purplemer

It's not working very well.

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

It's not working very well.

Opening stages, get people used to this then move it a little further till they get push back, apologize slide it back just a touch and repeat till goal is reached.

People have stopped paying attention to their health to such a degree it will barely be noticeable then all of a sudden, we will see a drop in population that shocks everyone and then its to late.

least thats my WAG.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: nugget1

In the UK, the subject of this thread, the NHS is not a business and makes no profit. Quite the opposite.

Correct. BUT.....it's still about the money. And in a social medicine system, would it be even more tempting to use less from the pool of available funds? I'm trying to see this from both perspectives, private and public/social medical. But I stick to my beginning statement, it's all about the money. Orrrrrr, maybe not. There are lots less medical personal in the last few years due to Covid19, mandates and shut downs etc. and medical facilities are also struggling. Maybe it's a combination of both? But it's also a matter of prejudice. Older people, unless very powerful or wealthy aren't worth much. And society overall seems to have lost a lot of love and respect for the elderly and become hardened and more focused on themselves than ever.

a reply to: StoutBroux

My Mum is 99 in a care home and had a hospital visit on the NHS for a fall. Still going strong.

a reply to: Partridge

Think about it. An automatic DNR placed in someone's records has nothing to do with financial profitability. If that were the only consideration, administrators would resuscitate every patient they could and keep the money flowing in. That's what happened with my companion who remained in the ICU for 13 days on a respirator. The longer they could keep her alive the more money they made off of her eventually certain death.

What makes it more logical is the government's interference in hospital affairs and demand that nonviable patients, the old in particular, cease to be a continual financial burden on the social welfare system. Government-mandated euthanasia is at work here. Not profit/loss for the facilities.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: nugget1

"To maximise profit in ANY business, you have to think in terms of numbers only, so humans become a number. To allow emotional involvement with those nubers by considering the human aspect, profit will decrease exponentially."

In the UK, the subject of this thread, the NHS is not a business and makes no profit. Quite the opposite.

Once upon a time US hospitals that received government funding were not allowed to operate as a business either.

Sorry my writing wasn't clearer on referencing the US HCS; it wasn't noted in the OP that we should only discuss the UK.

I'll try to do better with my responses in the future; perhaps I'll ask the author of the thread if he/she has any objections.

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: nugget1
I don't blame the doctors for the corner they've been painted into; they have lives and careers that would end if they went against protocol for one patient that they may or may not be able to save versus all the many patients they are able to save when following their strict guidelines.

I absolutely do blame them. In every way, for every thing. If they had all taken a stand, the only thing that would have happened is the Administrator would have been frustrated.

I think you didn't really think this through, because what you are actually saying is that you believe that the current legal maxim that 'I was just following orders' that was developed from the Nuremberg Trials is wrong, and that 'I was just following orders' is an excuse for torture and murder.

Is that really the position you want to take?

Do you hate mentally challenged people? That's pretty much what the general population is at this point when it comes to understanding politics and how the government with all the supproting agencies operate. The media has been weaponized to convince the people everything is under control, and the majority believe it-because it would be too painful not to.

The CDC and Surgeon General set the standards for what treatments hospitals can and can't use. They banned the use of all off-label drugs that hadn't been thoroughly tested specifically for covid.

Doctors don't sit in a lab and personally research new diseases; they're too busy trying to save lives with the tools they have to work with and rely on the scientific research of scientests to bring forth the latest and greatest protocol.

They were all given a snow job. There were medications they may have been willing to try, but there are laws against doctors using unapproved drugs-specifically the ones banned to treat covid because they worked. But nobody knew that early on.

If you really want to blame someone why just doctors for not taking a stand? Why not the people who got vaccinated so they could continue to work and support their families? Hell, if ou want to misplace blame don't forget the folks who got vaccinated to 'save Grandma' for not taking a stand. Throw in all the gullible people who believed a lie while you're at it, like the ones that think the Nuremberg Trials are still considered relevant and governments give any consideration to them in this day and age.

Culpability lies with those greedy Ba*turds running the world. Those people whose only god is wealth and power. They did this, but wait; there's more to come!

DNAR forms can be quite old and there's generally a view even from the patients that it'll be better to just let me go and take me to the local incinerator for disposal.

Perhaps a regular review including those near and dear would be better but how do you balance it out with someone who makes a lot of money as a carer and thus keeping them alive is more important than anything else in their view.

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

between 1-2k a week above the national average for death rate...

Honestly- good. The amount of codes I've run on people who shouldn't have had it done is the lions share.

Listen- if your heart stops, cpr is probably not going to save your life. And if it does, statistically you're going to die in a week anyway.

But the fact that people think medicine can hold on to people indefinitely is ridiculous.

Has nothing to do with anything nefarious

a reply to: Iconic

My heart stopped in August, CPR worked fine for me and I'm still here.

Do you have a source for your statistics?

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

No source and no stats quoted.

I was simply shocked at what I heard, and finished the post by asking "Anyone else heard of this in the UK?".

I also lead on saying the hospital concerned has a good reputation in my opinion.

I do think the idea of hospitals not being run for profit is misleading. 'Cost Optimization' is analogous to 'Increasing Profit'.
There is an open Financial equation around drugs or treatments assessed as too 'expensive' to be delivered, and care at any price is a concept long gone.

I'm a NHS baby, the NHS saved my the life of my mother, father, and wife to name three. It saved the sight in one of my eyes. It is the one public cause I would take up a gun to defend as a public body - which is why I was so shocked to even read such a thing as DANR forms completed as standard.

This must be the new type of Swatting, fill out forms for other people. They need to have a protocol to check ID upon receiving forms like this.