Jesus Civilization

a reply to: pthena

Okay. It was something about doing church stuff and army stuff simultaneously, so I assumed. My mistake.

And it's not liberal until it's a Unitarian Universalist church. The admin office is indistinguishable from the LGBT resource center. Both have the same "love is love" poster hanging somewhere about.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

a reply to: pthena

I'm figured you were referring to a comment on my thread.

I don't know what sin you're talking about, and I'm frankly tired of trying to read between the lines. I don't see how your repentance would be ineffective of cause others harm, but the choice is always yours.

a reply to: pthena

I found the article disappointingly parochial. It is concerned only with the USA, and largely with the present century. The threat which it warns of has already metastasized; the Evangelical Right in the USA is now the Trumpist Right, a rebranding that has required the abandonment of anything that resembles Christian morality. According to some reports, Jesus himself is now too meek and liberal for right-wing American Evangelicals.

Be that as it may, the 'fifth column', as you call it, has been around since the time of Jesus himself; Nicodemus, the unnamed centurion at Capernaum and his servant were all among the earliest members. It was not these people's intention to overthrow or hijack the Roman Empire, but their successors ended up infiltrating it so thoroughly that, a few centuries later, they controlled it.

The history of this fifth column -- that is, of Christian efforts and failures to control states and peoples -- is fascinating. It is, in fact, the story of Western civilization.

a reply to: incoserv

But even that "kingdom"...is destined to fail

All societies are destined to fail. One day the Sun will go out.

If it is Jesus' kingdom, he is a poor king.

Christendom only really came to exist from the accession of the Emperor Constantine in the fourth century onwards. Its foundations lie in the huge popularity of the Christ cult in the Roman Empire, but you can't blame Jesus for how it all turned out. That's what my ex-wife likes to call history happening, and there's no-one to blame for it -- except God, of course, if you believe in one. If He exists, He must rake the rap.

a reply to: Astyanax

civilization that Christian remnants of the collapsed Roman Empire founded in Western Europe from the third century onward, and which has now spread to cover the whole world. It is by far the most successful civilization in history.

Roman Civilization wasn't founded by Jesus. Christianity became the official religion, but was that the intent of Jesus? In some readings of the Gospels one may get the impression that he thought the New Age may come within the lifetime of his disciples.

In that case, there would not have been time for Pauline Christianity to supplant the official Roman State religion.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Astyanax

civilization that Christian remnants of the collapsed Roman Empire founded in Western Europe from the third century onward, and which has now spread to cover the whole world. It is by far the most successful civilization in history.

Roman Civilization wasn't founded by Jesus. Christianity became the official religion, but was that the intent of Jesus? In some readings of the Gospels one may get the impression that he thought the New Age may come within the lifetime of his disciples.

In that case, there would not have been time for Pauline Christianity to supplant the official Roman State religion.

I think Christianity became a form after Jesus' death not during. During Jesus ministry is was all talk and no action. After his death, it took root...many roots?

a reply to: incoserv

None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Seems that Rulers don't get it.
Maybe ruling in the present is sort of out of step with "the glory to be revealed"?

The most astounding fact is no one can prove
that Jesus, or Abraham and his genealogy
ever existed. Religionist except it as true
based on faith.

I can prove the falsehood of their faith
with actions that took place in War.

How many American and German soldiers during
WW2 claimed Jesus as their Lord & Savior?

Thousands of soldiers from both camps
claimed Christianity, and yet killed each other
without remorse.

How would their dogma respond to their respective
actions?

It takes a lifetime for some of them to understand,
that genuine truth does not come from a book.

My sweet lord, I really want to be with you.

a reply to: Degradation33

Okay. It was something about doing church stuff and army stuff simultaneously, so I assumed. My mistake.

I made a mistake on the timeline. I was in the Air Force, Aircraft Armaments Specialist E-5, when I joined the congregation.
Wasn't talked into being an Elder until I was out.

My bad memory.

And it's not liberal until it's a Unitarian Universalist church.

There are degrees of liberal. And different congregations have their own dynamic. They didn't trust me for quite a while. Strange questions:

"What do you think about David Duke?"
"Who?"

"You used to be Seventh-day Adventist. Is that Dominionistic?"
"What's that?"

Questions like that.

a reply to: pthena

Roman Civilization wasn't founded by Jesus.

Of course it wasn't. It developed under Greek influence, commencing in the eighth century BC, though the Romans themselves seem to have preferred to credit the Trojans rather than the Greeks.

Christianity became the official religion...

...by the Edict of Thessalonika in 380AD. Yes. But it had infiltrated and permeated Roman culture well before that. The process, as I noted earlier, began while Jesus was still alive, though it only really got going fifty years or more after the Crucifixion.

But was that the intent of Jesus? In some readings of the Gospels one may get the impression that he thought the New Age may come within the lifetime of his disciples.

Luke 9:27, I believe. One of the scripture-thumpers can verify it for us. Jesus's intentions are hard to divine, but if the will of God was that Christianity should spread itself around the world, the Roman Empire was the ideal contemporary vehicle for it, and the development of Western civilization (and later, maritime imperialism) out of the debris of the Empire is easy to conceive of as the working of the Divine will in history.

In that case, there would not have been time for Pauline Christianity to supplant the official Roman State religion

Three hundred and fifty years is longer than many civilizations have lasted. Plenty of time.

originally posted by: incoserv
a reply to: pthena

Only one had to die to get you off of any list, and he did die - and defeated the power of death and the grave "by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him." Colossians 2

Unless you have intentionally, willfully and with malice aforethought attributed the work of the Holy Spirit to demons, there is nothing but YOUR VERY OWN STUBBORN PRIDE keeping you from repentence.

:

Wow, wrong interpretation ... all the way.

a reply to: Astyanax

I found the article disappointingly parochial. It is concerned only with the USA, and largely with the present century.

Sorry about the parochial nature, but it does seem to be primarily a U.S. problem. U.S. is supposed to be a Democracy with no religious test for office. Unfortunately all it takes is a #ton of money and powerbrokers to insure only people with the "proper" religious indorsement end up in office.

Then the Supreme Court, final arbiter, can rule any law Constitutional or not. Total coup.

I'd like to see them make adultery and greed a capital offense. That's the self defeating utopia I'm talking about.

a reply to: MrBlaq

The most astounding fact is no one can prove
that Jesus, or Abraham and his genealogy
ever existed. Religionist except it as true
based on faith.

Pretty much.

Personally, I think there is evidence that somebody was teaching things. The Didache comes from the same community as the Gospel of Matthew. Already, they were changing rules on which itinerant prophets to give to and which to turn away because they were cons and exploiters.

But they got their teachings on giving without asking from someone, maybe a guy named Jesus.

a reply to: quintessentone

Back when I was one of the Jesus People of the '70s, we totally appropriated that song. Left out the Hari Krishna.

Here's a cool version.

a reply to: pthena

Before Pilate, Jesus said His kingdom wasn’t of this earth.
Think you might not have understood what you read

a reply to: MrBlaq

Quite honestly, I think Abraham Lincoln was fictitious, creation of people who wanted to control the US
Any character dead 3 generations are just based on hearsay

a reply to: pthena

it does seem to be primarily a U.S. problem

It really depends on where in the world you happen to be. You’re American, so things happening in America are naturally most salient to you. And quite legitimately, your primary concern is for your own country. But politicised religion is a worldwide problem and not really a Christian one.

That's the self defeating utopia I'm talking about.

Yes indeed. But we needn’t worry that it will ever establish itself. On the contrary, it is perishing, because the embrace of poisonous, unChristian values is destroying American Evangelicalism from within. A win for Trump in 2024 will not put Christians in the driving-seat of America, no matter how confidently they believe it will.

a reply to: Astyanax

But politicised religion is a worldwide problem and not really a Christian one.

I've got limited mental capacity. I can't figure out all the ills of my own country, much less the ills of the whole international order.

a reply to: pthena

What raised the question initially was a verse I saw on another thread. It had to do with groups of people who will never be part of the Kingdom of God according to Christian Canon. And there I was in that list. And there isn't anything that I can do to get off that list.

Every single person on earth has committed at least one sin that is on those lists of people who will never make it into heaven. There is absolutely NOTHING any of us can do to remove ourselves off of those lists. Only Jesus can remove us from those lists, but we have to believe in Him, the power and authority that God has given Him to forgive us of those sins through Jesus' death on the cross, and ask that He will.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.