'Giants' appearing in the west...

China's Terracotta Warriors inspired by ancient Greek art

'Giants' appearing in the west

Nickel translated ancient Chinese records that tell a tale of 12 giant statues, clad in "foreign robes" that "appeared" in Lintao in what was the westernmost part of China...

The Terracotta Warriors, along with other life-size sculptures built for the First Emperor of China, were inspired by Greek art, new research indicates.

About 8,000 Terracotta Warriors, which are life-size statues of infantryman, cavalry, archers, charioteers and generals, were buried in three pits less than a mile to the northeast of the mausoleum of Qin Shi Huangdi, the first emperor. He unified the country through conquest more than 2,200 years ago. Pits containing sculptures of acrobats, strongmen, dancers and civil servants have also been found near the mausoleum.

Now, new research points to ancient Greek sculpture as the inspiration for the emperor's afterlife army. [See Photos of the Terracotta Warriors & Greek Art]

"It is perfectly possible and actually likely that the sculptures of the First Emperor are the result of early contact between Greece and China," writes Lukas Nickel, a reader with the School of Oriental and African Studies at the University of London, in the most recent edition of the journal Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies. (A reader is a position comparable to an associate or full professor in the American system.)

Nickel's evidence includes newly translated ancient records that tell a fantastic tale of giant statues that "appeared" in the far west, inspiring the first emperor of China to duplicate them in front of his palace. This story offers evidence of early contact between China and the West, contacts that Nickel says inspired the First Emperor (which is what Qin Shi Huangdi called himself) to not only duplicate the 12 giant statues but to build the massive Terracotta Army along with other life-size sculptures.

I came across this very interesting article late tonight. I wanted to hear what others here have to say about this. if true this could call for a bit of historical rewriting. I suspect the Chinese may be at odds with it or maybe they already know and haven't said much about it.

Which for China isn't that unusual when one considers how secretive China has been in the past about certain perspectives and aspects with regards to their historical claims and ancestors.

So please, read the complete story and I'd love to hear your take on it.

as always

Stay tuned

Great thread and one to think on. I've never heard that theory offered for the Warriors before. I don't put anything but culture envy and wishful thinking behind it, but it's unique.

The reason I say that is two fold... actually 3. First. the most recent is having just tested through a history course this Fall which had a heavy focus on both the Chinese and Greek cultures of this time period, among others. The only resemblance I see between Greek art of the time and the Warriors is they're both bipedal humanoid figures in relief. The similarity ends there, I believe.

Second... Every single one of the 8,000 faces is unique and individual. One of the strangest details of the story for these and one aspect that makes it unlike anything Ancient Greece or Rome produced in the way of sculpture or art. These weren't art. They represented a battle force for the Emperor in the next life, as the strongest theory I've heard. Like the Egyptians..but even there, on a scale and scope beyond anything they did there either.

Last.. These things are Creepy with a BIG C. I mean it more than strictly figuratively too. Something I have never been able to put my finger on about these.. Even the scale mock-up the PRC puts on at the China Segment of Epcot is creepy and the artifacts resonate with it.

I have no idea what the men who found this felt. Not saw..not recorded as scientists, but actually felt in their Souls when they fully grasped the scene they had first encountered when any of this was visible. I'd love to hear it..and something tells me, that question wouldn't need elaboration for the men that were there to know precisely what was being asked about. Those things just..vibrate with weird.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000



This reminded me of something I came across quite some time ago [Years actually] at another site that I've lost the link it's not this one linked below. In any case, it's a rather interesting and speculative account.

Descendants of Alexander the Great’s army fought in ancient China, historian finds

A recent article is examining the possibility that a contingent of soldiers from the Mediterranean fought at the Battle of Talas River in 36 BC, but instead of being Roman forces, new research suggests they may have been descendants of the armies of Alexander the Great.

Christopher A. Matthew’s proposes this idea in his article, “Greek Hoplite in an Ancient Chinese Siege”, which appears in the latest issue of Journal of Asian History. It re-examines a theory put forward more than 70 years ago by Homer H. Dubs, in which the historian believed that Roman legionaries were serving as mercenaries in a city besieged by Han Chinese nearly 2,000 miles to the east of Roman territory. When the city fell, these men were captured and take east and eventually settled in a town on the fringes to the Han Empire.

Why couldn't each soldier in the army be made to make a human lifelike doll of themselves?

This is just what I always thought of these statues

Lintao was part of the Silk Road, would it really make sense to transport 12 giant statues over 4000 miles on what i can only assume is rather #ty terrain? India I could see, but not Greece. I wish the statues built before the palace had survived in some form.

This does bring to mind something else though, Golems. Ancient statues enchanted to move on their own, there are even some similarities between the practices of writing spells on paper between the two cultures. It could be the reason the statues were carved so intricately and in such high numbers.

I had forgotten he was obsessed with immortality.

reply to post by Thorneblood


True unless the statues were cast by the Greeks close to Ancient China's territory and placed in place as a warning? Who knows, I think there maybe something to this.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Which actually reminds me of the stories of Iskandar Zulkarnain. Very interesting stuff there.

reply to post by SLAYER69


The wording itself just seems odd I guess, weren't they highly literate even during this early era?

Knights in armor maybe? They could be perceived as giants, their foreign robes imply that their statue like nature wasn't a permanent feature wouldn't it?

This guy was so obsessed with power he built the Great Wall, so fearful of death he sought out immortality and may have colonized Japan as a by product of his beliefs. I know he sought out some ancient wizard to help ensure he lived forever, and i know he searched for the Elixir of Life. So i kinda doubt someone of this man's mentality would go to the time and expense of having 12 giant statues carved before his palace as anything but a warning, or a threat.

Interesting find Slayer! It seems that contact between east & west occurred more often than we have been led to believe. I've noticed the Chinese are not much different from the Egyptians when it comes to their history. Afraid of revealing what they find because it may re-write the history that they are so [rightfully] proud of.
Wrabbit your statement about the creepiness of the Terra-Cotta statues makes me think of magic. Not actual magic per se, but the idea some royal magician told the emperor to have them built. A army to storm the after-life with. Imagine the ego of a conquerer in those times and the "magicians" that would have been in court. I'm just saying that they remind me of like voodoo dolls sorta.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Yeah, the Chinese were already big traders way, way back in the day.

I don't see a problem if they were exposed to other cultures that influenced them and which they also influenced.

They have the earliest trade route, the silk road.

Those statues may have been commissioned by the soldiers they represent.

Plenty of large statues to their "west."

Off the top of my head, the statue of zeus by Phidias is about that size. Of course there's sumer/Babylon, Egypt, etc.

They also have pyramids.

Copying foreign technology/art (in this case marble statues (if they were greek) ) and reproducing it a thousandfold with pettier materials (in this case clay), also seems to have deep rooted tradition in China

j/k by the way... and i m of greek origin too

reply to post by SLAYER69


Hey that's really interesting, I wasn't expecting them to reveal these connections yet.
I didn't know this about Terracotta however, I find it a plausible suggestion worth investigating.

I guess that means I better post some of my work asap before other people figure it out, haha!

What I have been working on this week is heavily related to this subject-topic.
The connections are deeper than anyone would have ever expected.
I will be posting them in my Sha thread since it's all interwoven with that theme.

We are talking some extraordinarily "blatant" examples of influence.
I'll get on it today shortly.

Oh, and thanks for caring enough to bring this to my attention, it's a huge deal!
Asia and Europe have more ancient connections than anyone has suspected!

Ignorance denied!!!!

I had no idea the 1st Chinese emperor was a contemporary of Alexander, I thought the Emp was much earlier. Considering the swath Alex cut across that part of the world its not surprising the Emperor emulated some of the Hellenistic culture.

I was a bit skeptical when I saw the title as Greece to China is a fair distance, especially back then but considering Greek culture was basically on their doorstep it does make sense and it explains the break with the norm.
It would be hard to believe in a taboo when a culture that ignores it is kicking the ass of everyone around you.

Interesting stuff as always Slayer
S&F

Up early today cause I gotta go to work.Will ponder this and post later.

Very interesting thread and I can certainly follow the link between the two. Looking back at some early terra cotta work in Ancient Greece in 500 BC you see some early work where the focus was "people interacting with things. Example:



Although the anatomy is mostly generalized you can still detect the feminine characters in the work.

About 100 years later roughly around 400 BC you can see the skill is getting perfected and the details are for more obvious. Keep in mind this is still 150+ years before the Qin dynasty.



I can't help but find it interesting that the progression of skill in terra cotta sculpture and the detail offered in China at least to me line up. Did Qin simply commission some of the best artists of Ancient Greece to assist with the build? Hmmm

reply to post by hangedman13


Heh, Heh...

Imagine the Magicians surprise *If the Magician wasn't already aware of it that is* that when the Emperor died he would have to follow him into the after life and would be sacrificed with all the rest of the Emperor's servants. It's said that the tomb is not only a magnificent feat of engineering and splendor but also the resting place of over 200+ of his personal court.

Now this is some interesting stuff right here. I'm not an expert in art and definitely not an expert in ancient art, so I can't speak very well to that. But I have some knowledge of Hellenistic culture and am aware of how far it extended in the ancient world. It doesn't seem that far fetched to me being that Greek traders made it into China. Alexander the Great's empire extended into India. It wouldn't be that unsurprising if the people in the area started branching out and exploring areas not contained in that Empire.

Really the only thing that seems to be holding this theory back for me is the whole Chinese being EXTREME isolationists thing, but the article puts up compelling reasons for why the First Emperor of China made an exception in this case. Not to mention puts up more good reasons why this style of art was discontinued when the Han's took over. This intrigues me. I like Asian history and feel it doesn't get its proper due in Western history classes. Instead we get the pg version of Western history (which doesn't give it its proper due either come to think of it).

I've read about these statues before. Noone actually made the connection between these and the greek statues though. India had some statues also that date way back. India did more stone figures on their buildings though.

There had to be contact between people around the world or possibly collective consciousness linking people. If people were able to visualize what others are carving through thought, and modify it to fit their society, it would also explain this.

I ask the world a question and the answer comes to me. I do not understand the answer and have to do research. The answer I got was right, but how to translate the answer necessitates knowledge of how the science works. I have done this many times and the answer is right, but you have to understand that it is right in the minds of certain people. It is who you are tied to that is important and their perspective on life. It is the frequency your mind vibrates and your desires that steer your communication.

Now when I ask a question I ask the name, and research the name if I get one. Funny coincidence that when I ask a question about physics I get names of CERN physicists pop into my head. It is just a very good coincidence that I can trace the name to the exact science I am researching. It is another coincidence that the contact is mostly with people of Scandinavian descent. I also get names from India, WHO, Germany, and other areas. I am starting to believe in coincidences myself, especially when I find the information is real.

Remember though that reality is based on conscensus of the time. If the person you are linked to believes it is real than the information is based on their desired belief. If you believe that global warming is a hoax, than the others you are linked to will get that reinforcing thought. This makes it hard to get the truth because truth is a perception. The link could also be false information or misapplied to the application. My research shows me this.

Back on topic. This link I speak about makes me able to visualize the working internals of things fairly accurately. It does not work well with electronics though. As you age your frequency lowers, so you are tied to people in your age group, it is hard to visualize what a kid is seeing. Also, the young share knowledge amongst themselves, they can run a new remote because others know how to run that remote. The younger desire new technology more than the older do most time. Having something that temporarily speeds up your energy level may create the link though. But to who is the question. These ancient people could have been telepathically linked to others somehow in Egypt, they may have never actually met them.

reply to post by Krazysh0t


I'm of the stance that this wasn't a real long term connection between the two [Ancient Greece & China] but rather I came away from reading the article of the opinion that maybe the Greeks in their conquest may have heard of the Chinese as being a great power? Then possibly placing these giant statues on the outer edge between the two powers as a sign and possible warning that they were in the area.

The first Emperor finding them then copied the idea of the statues but not their style. This would explain why there really isn't too much "Copying or merging" of styles but maybe the copying and expanding of the concept?

In any case, For those who care to learn more about the Emperor and the tomb design here is a great Docudrama that goes into some detail about him, the period and the tomb construction and design...

Enjoy

Wouldn't it be great if we could know the true history of mankind, without the whole, history is written by the winners thing. I read in the thread that Chinese historians may very well know about this, but hid this. I could see that hiding this would be important to China's cultural heritage, but the reality is that truth and fact in learning history is more important to mankind as a whole than maintaining cultural heritage, even when it is negative history, like slavery. I think maintaining truth and fact in historical data would be a very important factor in the wellness of mankind, as a whole, rather than omitting the embarrassing and shameful parts.