The 144,000 revealed... and they aren't "Jews".

Contrarians, trolls, and all others who have nothing better to do than criticize please stop here. Everyone else, I welcome your thoughts and contributions!

Hello ATS! The book of Revelation has always been a very interesting topic. It is also a very intimidating topic to cover for most Preachers, which is why they shy away from it. The Book of Revelation shows us the other side of Jesus Christ, the ALMIGHTY GOD side of him... it is the other half of his story, the first half being the four Gospels. There are numerous opinions on its meaning, symbology, and relevance in regards to the present day. Some people believe that none of it is to be taken literally, while others believe that the events described within the book happened centuries ago. Others, like me, believe that the book of Revelation is a timeline of future events, and we are in the end times right now. Have any of the seven seals described in chapter 6 been opened? No one knows, I certainly don't know, but what I do know, is that if you are a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you have entrusted your eternal salvation to him by way of your faith through His Grace, then it really is of no consequence. Your soul is eternally secure. For those that have not accepted the free gift of salvation, I suggest that you revisit your decision before it is too late(see my avatar).

Having said all of that, there are numerous topics that can be discussed that are found within Revelation, but I specifically want to cover the identity of the 144,000 found in Chapters 7 and 14, but before I do let me disclose the perspective from which I am writing this thread. The Book of Revelation is made up of 22 chapters, and the prophecy is told twice. Chapters 1 - 11 are the entire prophecy, and chapters 12 - 22 are the entire prophecy retold, except from a different perspective with much more symbolism. The first part of the Book can be taken literally, and should be, while the second half is far more symbolic and requires a lot of Bible study to understand most of the symbology, however the two parts of the Book compliment each other, and when read and compared together the entire picture of the end times is revealed. I also believe that the seven year period known as Daniel's 70th Week should be divided in half. The first 3 1/2 years is the Tribulation, and the second 3 1/2 years is when God pours out His wrath on the Earth. The Rapture occurs after the Tribulation, but before God's wrath.

Most Christians would disagree with me, and would say that I am wrong when I say that the Book should be divided in half. They would also disagree with my belief on when the Rapture occurs. They would also disagree with me that the Tribulation and God's wrath are two different events, but when you read it these are the only conclusions that can be drawn. Most Christians have never read the Bible, which is why so many people follow false teachers, because they don't know that the false teacher is wrong. For example, John Hagee couldn't be more wrong, but his followers just take his word for it, instead of reading and studying for themselves. Anyway, all of that is a conversation for a different day...now onto the point of THIS thread.

Who are the 144,000

(note: all scripture quoted is from the KJV)

We are first introduced to the 144,000 in Revelation 7:1-8

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

You will notice that the angels are preparing to harm the Earth, but before they do the 144,000 must be sealed. By the way, the fact that the angels have not yet begun to harm the Earth is proof that God has NOT started to pour his wrath out on the Earth. Also, the events of the Tribulation occurred in Chapter 6, with the last verse of chapter 6 stating "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" This is proof that the Tribulation and God's wrath are two separate events. If you keep reading past verse 8 you will see the rapture in verse 9. Anyway, let's get back to the 144,000... I will discuss why they must be sealed in a minute.

Before we go any further, lets discuss the word "Jew". Most of you have probably heard about the "144,000 Jews". The most popular belief among the vast majority of Christians is that 144,000 Jews who are alive on Earth today will be chosen by God to bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the world during the Tribulation. For that to be true, there must be 144,000 Jews on Earth today who believe in Jesus Christ. But wait, there's more... let's see what Revelation chapter 14 says...

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Now that we have looked at what chapter 14 says, we have the entire picture regarding the 144,000. Looking at verse 4 we see that the 144,000 are males, virgins, and followers of Christ. Now I will challenge you... go find on this Earth today, 144,000 male virgin Jews who follow Christ. Go ahead, I'll wait.

to be continued

Continued…


Maybe I shouldn’t wait, because I’ll be waiting forever, so let’s just agree that it would be impossible to find 144,000 male virgin Jews who follow Christ on the Earth today in 2013. Adding to this impossibility is the fact that the 144,000 consists of 12,000 men from the 12 tribes of Israel. As a side note, the Tribe of Dan is not included in this list, having been replaced with Joseph. There are differing opinions on why this is, but I believe that it is because the tribe of Dan turned apostate in the book of Judges in the OT. The tribe of Dan turned reprobate, rejected God and God basically washed his hands of them. Again, this is my opinion, but I digress. Anyway, it is impossible for the 144,000 to be Jews living on the Earth today mainly because the term Jew is descriptive of someone who is a descendant of the Southern Kingdom of Judah, which consisted of the Tribe of Judah, many of the Tribe of Benjamin, and some of the other tribes as well. The term Jew doesn’t even appear in the Bible until 2 Kings 16:6. Before the Children of Israel split into two kingdoms they were known as the Israelites, or the Children of Israel. They were NEVER called Jews, in fact the term Jews, or the word Jew, didn’t even exist. The Jews of the Bible were NEVER from Israel, they were from the Kingdom of Judah.

So what happened to the other 10 tribes from the Northern Kingdom of Israel? Well, to make a long story short, they were conquered, and they were assimilated into other groups of people from other areas and nations. They eventually became the Samaritans. By the time Jesus Christ was in His ministry here on Earth He didn’t even consider the Samaritans to be “of the circumcision”. So again, how could the 144,000 possibly be Jews alive here on Earth today? Like I said, it is impossible. So then who exactly are the 144,000? I believe the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that they are Old Testament Saints (believers) who died a long time ago and are in Heaven right now. Let’s look again at Revelation 14
Verse 1-2

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Ok, so John (the Author of Revelation) saw a Lamb on mount Sion and the 144,000 were with Him. The Lamb is Jesus Christ. The capital “L” proves this, as well as the fact that Jesus Christ is called “The Lamb” on numerous occasions all throughout the New Testament. The next question is… where is mount Sion? Let’s look at Hebrews 12:22-24 for the answer.

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

So we see that mount Sion is in Heaven. We also see that John hears a voice coming from Heaven, and as we see in verse 3 of Revelation 14 that it is the 144,000 singing. So mount Sion is in Heaven and the voice John hears is coming from Heaven. Clearly the 144,000 are in Heaven, and not on this Earth.
We also see from chapter 14:1 that the 144,000 are sealed with the Father’s name written in their foreheads. Notice how it doesn’t say ON their foreheads. So what is the purpose of this seal? Let’s see what Revelation 9:1-6 says…

And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Notice verse 4… the locusts are commanded not to hurt those men which have the seal of God in their foreheads. This is the plague that comes about after the fifth trumpet is sounded while God’s wrath is being poured out upon the Earth. The seal protects the 144,000 from the wrath of God.


Now for a summary and the conclusion… The Tribulation is the first 3 ½ years of Daniel’s 70th week, then we see the Abomination of Desolation at the mid-point which is where the Antichrist will proclaim himself to be God and demand to be worshiped, and for those who will not worship him by taking the Mark of the Beast, they will be put to death. This is the period known as “Great Tribulation”… the time between the Abomination and the rapture, which in my opinion is 75 days long. That is derived from the Book of Daniel and is a discussion for a different day. The 144,000 are sealed before the rapture, and after the rapture, during the time of God’s wrath, the 144,000 are sent to Earth to bring the word of God to those who were left behind after the rapture. People will still have the opportunity to be saved after the rapture. So again, who are the 144,000? The 144,000 are Old Testament Saints who died before the Children of Israel split into two nations. They are in Heaven now and will return to Earth during the time of God’s wrath. Thank you for your time and attention and I look forward to any constructive discussion(s) regarding this topic.

@op .....''Now I will challenge you... go find on this Earth today, 144,000 male virgin Jews who follow Christ. '' _ ..............................................................................1) Nowhere does it say the 144k are jews. It simply mentions that they were of the Israelite tribes... It does NOT neccessarily mean they are jews. I'm not being a contrarian, but its a common mistake to associate the tribes with Jews. ''jew'' comes from ''judah'', who was ONE of the 12 sons, that the tribes are named after. .......................................................................................... 2) what if the 144k, the redeemed, are from all ages? Not just our time.

Hm.m.m.m.m.


Very informative thread. It seems you really did your homework. So, you say that the real Jews came from Judah? Interesting...

Very interesting. I don't know if I would take the depressing visions of a man imprisoned on an island somewhere as real though. He seemed to be mad at humanity and for good reason I suppose. He was probably honest and wasn't breaking any laws and they locked him up. Wouldn't you write something like that if it were you.

There are associations with the numbers and he does speak of a lot of things written in the old testement from an earlier time. He had a lot of knowledge of the old writings.

I believe he was in prison. I believe he was a devoted Christian of the time. I never could believe in his visions though because of the situation he was in. I could be wrong. If his writings ever come true I will most certainly admit that I was wrong.

The number 144,000 was considered a special number by a lot of religions of the time. I haven't figured why a hundred gross would be so important a number.

Sounds good to me. I'm just glad that all the rest of us don't have to fight for those spots.

reply to post by rickymouse


I haven't figured why a hundred gross would be so important a number.

I just figured it to be some outstanding googlish number to the author.
you got your number system based on two four six eight and twelve instead of five ten fifteen.
tribes. sons. apostles. So this guy tries to think of the biggest number he can and what he comes up with is 144000.

Replacement theology is old, it comes from not understanding Israel's presence in prophecy PRE its reformation.

It comes from man not taking Gods word as Gods word.

You find it in many turn of the century Christian sects, Most notably but not the only one Jehovah's Witness.

I don't claim to understand Revelations enough to start making my own theology based around my interpretation of it, but it is well known the Flaws with the Replacement theology based on lack of Israel.

Some just never admitted they where wrong about that.

As for the comment on Jews following christ, there are Masonic jews that claim in the US alone over 200,000 members.

But thats really here nor there, Ill take the book for its word, and not try to build a theology around a misconception.

Which ultimately has yet to play out, and two really has no purpose other than to serve as a division or schism in the ranks of Christianity.

Its why theres so many frickin branches, Everyone wants their interpretation to be right, which sounds like pride and Hubris to me.

Dear OptimusSubprime - fascinating. You really have done your homework and appear to have had a real insight. I really enjoyed that. Thank you. This is something that I will think of for the next while. I am no expert but am open to different thoughts on Revelations. I find it such a shame when believers, who have Jesus as their Savior have to fight over who is right. Everyone is at different stages of understanding and growth and I think it's great to discuss all aspects of different theories. But until God puts His understanding into us we won't know for a certainty and I hope this thread can be discussed with respect and openness. No one person is 100% right. The main thing is to be living examples of Christ and to love one another. I had finally come to a personal decision that the 144,000 must be Jews but now I find your take on this to be very interesting. Good job, I'm impressed. Don't you love that feeling of realizing there is hidden depth always to what we have read and re-read and a new possibility of understanding when something new hits you? Hugs!

ccseagull is correct. We are all at a different stage in our spiritual understanding. And there is no point in arguing. It is nice to see you are thinking about these things.

You might also mention that the 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation 7 are not the same as the twelve tribes that received an inheritance in the promised land. For example there is no tribe of "Joseph" in the promised land. Rather he received two portions, and that went to his two sons the tribes of: Ephraim and Manasseh.

Also you want to note that the tribe of Levi is not listed among the 12 tribes that received land inheritance. Yet these are both mentioned in Revelation 7. So this is not the same tribal listing as the tribes of fleshly Israel.

They are however Jews. Just not fleshly Jews. How is this?

Not all who are of the seed of Abraham are really his children. Really, all those who have been called and chosen get grafted into the tree and become children of God's and heirs to the promise, and these become the seed, the Jews whose father is Abraham by faith. It is the spiritual Israel. The anointed Christian congregation.

That they are virgins does not mean they don't have sexual relations. It means they have not contaminated themselves with this world and its politics. Those who are called and chosen have their citizenship in heaven and serve the living God and the king Jesus. They follow no political power on earth that is in Satan's hands.

TerryMcGuire

.............. So this guy tries to think of the biggest number he can and what he comes up with is 144000.

In Rev 14:1 .....144 is not an arbitrary number and neither is 666 which is one sentence before in Rev 13:18.There were no chapter breaks to separate those sentences.

666 sine= -0.809016994374947
144 cosine=-0.809016994374947

-0.809016994374947 +-0.809016994374947=
1.618033988749895
1:1.618033988749895=Phi

Phi is the Golden ratio..the perfect number ratio that EVERYTHING is measured by from atoms to DNA to vascular systems to spiral galaxies.Rev 21:15 Golden measuring rod is Phi.The book of Revelation is not what anyone believes it is.

OptimusSubprime
Everyone else, I welcome your thoughts and contributions!...Hello ATS! The book of Revelation has always been a very interesting topic.... Others, like me, believe that the book of Revelation is a timeline of future events, and we are in the end times right now.

I've done a whole series of threads on Revelation, so my repsonse draws on the insights I believe I've gained in the process
I agree with Revelation being an approximate timeline of future events. But it is not quite continuous. E.g. chs 12-13 are a "flashback" section which explain the background to the persecution which is the main theme of Revelation.

I also believe that the seven year period known as Daniel's 70th Week should be divided in half. The first 3 1/2 years is the Tribulation, and the second 3 1/2 years is when God pours out His wrath on the Earth.

I agree with the division of the time-period, and I agree with the distinction between Tribulation and Wrath. The Tribulation is essentially the persecution of the church; the Wrath is God's response to the persecution.
However, I disagree with placing the Tribulation in the first half-week.
The Abomination of Desolation is placed in the middle of the time-period, and surely this marks the beginning of the persecution.
So I would identify the first half-week as a period of false peace, when there is no open warfare between the ruler and God.
It's possible to trace the same division in Revelation. I would identify the "seven-year" period of Daniel with the "one hour" during which the Beast has power (ch17 v12).
The first half of this "hour" is a time of outward peace between God and the Beast, and that is the meaning of ch8 v1- "There was silence in heaven for half an hour".
"Silence in heaven" being an indirect way of saying God's wrath was not active on earth, since the resumption of God's wrath is announced with a great deal of noise in heaven.
Revelation; Silence in heaven
Revelation; A time, times and half a time

You will notice that the angels are preparing to harm the Earth, but before they do the 144,000 must be sealed. By the way, the fact that the angels have not yet begun to harm the Earth is proof that God has NOT started to pour his wrath out on the Earth. Also, the events of the Tribulation occurred in Chapter 6, with the last verse of chapter 6 stating "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" This is proof that the Tribulation and God's wrath are two separate events.

Also I disagree with identifying ch6 as the Tribulation.
Firstly, the nature of ch6 is that it is Wrath. It is God's wrath against a persecution.
You need to be aware that there are two cycles of Tribulation/Wrath described in this book.
Revelation opens in a time of persecution, which produces a first set of martyrs.
Ch6 is God's wrath in reaction to this earlier persecution.
The victims of this persecution are the martyrs who are seen at the opening of the fifth seal, rejoicing that they are getting their revenge and obviously wanting the judgement to be carried through to a complete conclusion.
But they are told that they must wait, because their numbers are to be "filled up" with the victims of a second persecution, which is to be the major Tribulation.
Therefore what is happening in the opening verse of ch7 is a pause in God's wrath; the destructive winds which have been blowing during ch6 are to be held back for the moment.
This also allows time for the "sealing" of the 144,000, which is done to prepare them to face the major Tribulation which will come later.
Revelation; Four Horsemen- Why?
Revelation; Souls under the altar

OptimusSubprime
The seal protects the 144,000 from the wrath of God.

I believe it protects them in the first instance from losing their faith and giving in to the Beast.
And consequently protects them from the wrath of God.
In other words, it prepares them to meet the time of persecution which we call the Tribulation.

Evidently they are described both on earth and in heaven, but my way of understanding that is that the time on earth comes first.
They are "in heaven" in two senses.
For one thing, they are accompanying the Lamb because they have been martyred.
Secondly, even before becoming martyrs, they are already, like all Christians, "seated in the heavenly places" at the same time as being alive on earth (Ephesians ch1 v20).

Finally, I disagree with identifying the "assembly of the firstborn" as the Old Testament saints.
I believe he means all the saints, including the New Testament ones- that is to say, the Christian church.
Christians are "the firstborn" in relation to the rest of humanity.
The church is now God's people Israel, which is why it is represented in ch7 as "the twelve tribes".
But they are a faithful version of the twelve tribes, which is why the list drops two names (Ephraim and Dan) associated with the two idols, and replaces them with two names (Joseph and Levi) associated with being faithful, in resisting adultery and idolatry respectively.

reply to post by Rex282

Hi, are you willing to elaborate moreso on what you have already?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I agree that they aren't Jews... that is the point of the thread. The reason the 144,000 can't be from many different time periods is because after Israel split into two Kingdoms, the vast majority, if not ALL, of the northern tribes disappeared and no longer exist, so they would have to come from a time period equal to or before King Solomon, the 3rd king of Israel.

reply to post by lostbook


I wouldn't say "the REAL Jews". There is a distinction between an Israelite and a Jew. Israelites are from Israel... Jews are from Judah. In fact, you will see in the OT where Israel and the Assyrian Empire are allied together and attacking Jerusalem, which was the capital of the Southern Kingdom of Judah.

reply to post by rickymouse


I wouldn't say that John was depressed because he had faith in Christ. In fact he was probably closer to Christ than any other Disciple/Apostle. He knew that his persecution was because of his faith and righteousness and he took great comfort in that. Also, John didn't just write the book... he was literally shown these things, starting in Chapter 4 called the "here after". He wrote down what he literally saw, what was revealed to him by various angels as well as Jesus Christ himself.

reply to post by TerryMcGuire


It's funny you say that because that is what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe, that is why they have changed their number over time, because there are now more than 144,000 of them and their "theology", and I use that word very loosely, says.

reply to post by ccseagull


There are some things that Christians can respectfully disagree on and talk about. This topic is one of many. The important thing, really the ONLY important thing, is that a Christian has the doctrine of salvation correct, because that is ultimately what saves one's soul... the rest of it makes for great conversation.

reply to post by benrl


This topic doesn't really fit into Replacement Theology, because I am not saying that the 144,000 are modern day Christians. I'm saying that they are of the Children of Israel, before the Southern Kingdom of Judah was established. They died without ever knowing the name Jesus Christ, because Jesus didn't come around for another 1000 years. Replacement Theology teaches that Christians, not Jews, are God's chosen people, and that the Nation Of Israel that God holds above all others is the spiritual Israel, or the Heavenly Israel, and NOT the physical Nation of Israel here on Earth. I believe that there is more than enough evidence in the OT and NT to back this up, but again, that was not the point of this particular thread.