End this media-promoted, "kung-fu" madness!

Danbones
reply to post by swanne

 

guns don't kill peolpe ...people do
no?
while we are at it lets get rid of steak knives too

That is most lucrative motto made by those making millions by selling 'guns' that don't kill people to folks like you.

True, people do kill people, but guns made it easier.

As for your mention of knives, sure, that is why we don't carry those around, as you can harm someone, or get harm.

Please try something better, but I can understand your straw-pulling momentum, because best response is somewhat lost after recent study that more guns mean more crime and killings.

reply to post by EmperorFaustus


I would like to try a more 'up tempo' push hands with my teacher, maybe when he thinks I'm ready it will become more free form. So you have done some pushing before? I was utterly skeptical at first but I'm beginning to understand its usefulness as a training tool. Do you believe that someone skilled at push hands could take a violent situation and make the aggressor 'play along' by turning a 'fight' into a push hands match (if that makes sense)? This is one thing I don't understand yet about the martial application of tai chi, is it just a tool for something that becomes like any other martial art at full contact level, or do you engage the opponent in the same way you would when pushing hands? (or does that question become irrelevant as the two merge and become formless ) my teacher would say, at first you see the puddle and you go *kung fu sound effect and bruce lee pose while walking around the puddle waving your hands* then eventually, you see a puddle and you just walk around it

www.liveleak.com...


150lb Jiu Jitsu Black Belt Vs. 250lb Body Builder

Interesting fight from '94 showing a match between 2nd degree black belt Jiu Jitsu fighter Pedro Sauer facing body building champion Lance Bachelor. Includes commentary and slow motion analysis.
did not see it on here, so enjoy!
Read more at www.liveleak.com...

reply to post by Tasmanaut


Oh yeah, I've done quite a bit of pushing over the years. Bear in mind, though, that I'm first and foremost a Pao Chui Kung Fu guy, and that has undoubtedly coloured my view of push hands. I also cross trained in Chen family Taijiquan for years, which is where pretty much all of my direct push hands instruction comes from. Your teacher probably has his own take on it, and that's what you should follow.

All that said, here's my view on push hands.

First and foremost, push hands is an exercise -- it's not sparring, even in it's most vigorous incarnation. The primary purpose of push hands is to develop a keen sensitivity to your opponents pressure; you should be learning to find and control their centre of gravity and momentum and redirect their force. For this reason, push hands begins slow and gentle. There are other benefits to push hands as you get better and it becomes more alive: you train techniques against a resisting opponent, integrate footwork, and develop strategies and tactics to use in actual combat when grappling.

You should, of course, also spar under supervision and an appropriate ruleset (we often spar under MMA rules) because push hands is not free-sparring; there are elements of ranged fighting and realities of full resistance that push hands is simply not designed to meet.

Ultimately, you shouldn't be looking to turn real fights into push hands. At an extremely high level of skill against a single, untrained, opponent it probably would be possible. But it would be far from optimal. The ultimate goal of push hands (in a martial sense) is not to turn combat into a graceful dance but to equip you with real combat skills -- if you're good at push hands, you can hopefully detect and redirect an opponents attack into a hard throw or an incapacitating hold. In this regard, the outcome of good push hands training is not unlike Judo randori.

Different teachers (even within a single style) often have different views and curriculums on push hands -- I know a few Chen guys who just have basic, intermediate, and advanced stages, but some of the Wudang Taiji guys over here use a curriculum with 8 stages based on the footwork in their tao lu. If you want your Taiji to become combat effective, it's definitely worth asking your instructor what he thinks the purpose of push hands is and how the exercise evolves with the student.

reply to post by EmperorFaustus


Thankyou for the reply, that made a lot of sense to me. My instructor is a very peaceful man, I don't think he's very interested in free sparring, at least not at this level, and the other people in my class are a couple of ladies that are only interested in the health benefits. He has shown me a video of him with an old teacher of his, engaging in a more free style push hands which looked like a lot of fun, but he told me he came to disagree with that man's philosophy and attitude, so he sought out another teacher. From what he has told me, his view seems to be that practicing the form and pushing hands over the course of many years is enough to equip you with the skills for self defense. I can see his point, but I think he has too much confidence in the effectiveness of the form as a training tool. There is no doubt in my mind, he is amazing at what he does and could handle himself, but I don't think his skill came from practicing only the form. He tells me not seek to validate the effectiveness of the art, don't go seeking challenges and picking fights... This is ok because I'm not that type of person at all, although I do very much love having a friendly sparring session with a friend. I don't enjoy fighting and I'm not an aggressive person. I guess It's a psychological thing, seeking to prove myself and all that... I think that is a trap many martial artists fall into

727Sky
www.liveleak.com...


150lb Jiu Jitsu Black Belt Vs. 250lb Body Builder

Interesting fight from '94 showing a match between 2nd degree black belt Jiu Jitsu fighter Pedro Sauer facing body building champion Lance Bachelor. Includes commentary and slow motion analysis.
did not see it on here, so enjoy!
Read more at www.liveleak.com...

hahahahahaha
ive never seen that. i bet big boys muscles were on fire after about a minute on the ground.
ha... love it

EmperorFaustus
reply to post by CardiffGiant

 

But I have to disagree with the assertion that grappling is the 'best' type of martial art. The '99% of fights go to the ground' myth is just that; a myth. you can read here where that statistic comes from and why it is misleading: ejmas.com...

Obviously, if you take fighters who have no idea how grappling works, they will be easy to take down and submit (I think this, more than anything, is what led to the Gracie domination of early UFC's).

well i didnt really think it was a baseless claim by the gracies. anyone can see thats what happens in fights.
fights in big promotions wind up there. last night after posting in this thread i watched a bunch of street fight vids on youtube and sure enough, to the ground with most of them.
that video just posted with the body builder and the jitsu guy... it hits the ground. helio was taking on guys for his whole life. all the legendary fights on the rio beaches between the luta livre guys.
the theory of fights going to the ground has been proven to be true, despite what the police say.

it looks like other law enforsement agencies believe it as well.

ryron gracie trains police
www.wvec.com...
with a vid from the news
www.youtube.com...

relson grains trains police
www.nrablog.com...

there are numerous blogs written by former and active police who train in jui jitsu. you can find them if you want.
why would they do this if the ground fighting thing is bs?

im sure you can find plenty of articles are police training in krav maga as well. its practical

i couldnt find any aricles about cops learning bak mei or any kind of kung fu really.. wonder why?

you can try to deny that fact all day with whatever article you want but i know what i see.
i totally agree with royce's early domination in the ufc. peoples didnt know what to do. the kung fu guys didnt know what to do so they tapped. just like everyone.
there was a judoka named remco something and he tapped out shortly after royce took him down and mounted him. as far as he was concerned the fight was over.
that is not the case these days.

the fighters all cross train because of what royce proved.
fighters are not rushing out to learn bak mei. theyre rushing out to learn to defend on the ground.
fact.

i just watched the push hand video.
seems explosive.
why do they stop with that though?
makes no sense

reply to post by CardiffGiant


To clarify, I'm not claiming ground fighting is BS. In an earlier post I mentioned that it is a necessary component in any martial artists training. I also mentioned that I feel so strongly about this that during my 3 years at uni I practised ne-waza (ground fighting) with the Judo players, and that I took the chance to train with a BJJ purple belt.

What I'm taking issue with is your assertion that ground fighting is the best martial art. It's not -- it's neither better nor worse than stand up fighting. You say that cage fights often go to the ground. I agree with that, although it's in part because the fighters in question are fighting in an enclosed space, one on one, with certain techniques removed from their arsenal. You say that real fights often go to the ground -- of the real fights I've seen, some do, but more of them end up standing and striking until knockout or the fight's broken up. I guess we'd need real figures to debate that more.

I'm not surprised that western police use BJJ -- BJJ has spread into the west over the last 2 decades, and it's perfect for their needs, which are often to restrain a person without injury, and often involve 2 or more police officers taking down a single civilian. But I don't know why you think Kung Fu isn't used by military and police. Even a little googling will show you that the People's Republic of China trains it's police and military in Kung Fu.

From Lo Man Kam's website:

"The fighting system employed by the Taiwan police takes Wing Chun kung fu and natural physiological function as its basis. Integrating physics, geometry, and other scientific principles to unite the body with motion, it stresses fluidity to enable unlimited fighting force in combat. "

And pretty much everybody who knows anything about martial arts knows that Sanshou is the H2H combat system for the PRC's military? Even their special forces use a synthesis of various different Kung Fu styles, much like the US marines have MCMAP taken from arts like Judo, Boxing and BJJ.

Of course, all that is official training. If you google, you can find countless examples of policemen in China who study Bak Mei, Taijiquan, and many other styles on their own time.

The example of Pedro Sauer taking down the bodybuilder is cool -- I've seen it before -- but that's a vid of a BJJ black belt (or 2nd dan? I can't remember) taking down an untrained opponent exactly as he was trained to do. There's nothing particularly about that video that suggests ground fighting is better than stand up fighting. I guarantee, if that had been Ricky Hatton, Floyd Mayweather, Timothy Bradley, or Manny Pacquiao, the fight would have been just as short and one sided, but it would have ended with a knockout instead of going to the ground.

reply to post by CardiffGiant


They just stop there because its only a drill, not sparring. Push hands is a method to learn how to sense and control another persons force and momentum. That's why, in an earlier post, I pointed out that even the most vigorous push hands can't take the place of free sparring (which everyone should train, regardless of style, if they want to be competent at self defence).

reply to post by swanne


Hands are weapons, forbid hands.
Martial Arts, in the modern world, are a mere physical activity and mostly used for recreation. You can beat someone to death with a skateboard, but it's not it's purpose. The purpose of guns however is to inflict damage. I'm not going down the road whether or not your average joe should be able to purchase a firearm, I'm just saying that your example, and therefore the whole premise of your thread is utter bullsh**.

reply to post by EmperorFaustus


we must disagree then.
i do feel that ground fighting is superior. i believe that 100%
again, it has been proven.
i dont think i need to throw any more stats out about that or about fights going to the ground.
people in brazil have proven both consistently for 75 years.

reply to post by CardiffGiant


Well, okay. We will agree to disagree.

Your opinion is that ground fighting is superior and that that has been proved by the Gracie's in Brazil and their domination of the early UFC.

My opinion is that both ground and stand up elements are of equal importance to combat efficiency, and that the evolution of MMA (amongst other things) proves that -- I mean, otherwise the Gracies and BJJ players would still be winning everything. But they're not.

For what it's worth, I do find catch fighting interesting, enjoy ground fighting, and have enjoyed our discussion.

Most of kung-fu's capabilities is just a lot of hot air. These guys talk a good game but in reality is not very effective. Boxing is far more lethal. I have friends who work as bouncers for night clubs and they tell me they laugh at people who claim to be good at kung fu. They say whats the point of being able to hit someone 4 times a second if they are super weak punches. Some of their locks are quite effective but my friends tell me that most kung fu guys go down after being hit just once.

On the other hand boxers are a real handful. Kick boxers are tough as well.

I watched sports science TV program where they tested all the different martial arts and the only thing that kung-fu was best at was fastest punch. But when they measured force it was also the weakest punch.

reply to post by PhoenixOD


I agree about boxers being the real deal -- my wife's cousin is an amateur boxing champion who very nearly went pro 10 years ago, and he's a total machine. This is generally true about sport fighters to be honest -- they take their conditioning seriously, are used to applying techniques on fully resisting opponents, and are comfortable with the raw aggression of violence because they face it regularly.

But what kind of Kung Fu are you talking about? There are over 1,000 styles, and they're quite different from one another. Some of them also involve competitive fighting like kickboxing, boxing, judo, wrestling and BJJ.

As a general rule, BTW, most of those programs (fight science, etc.) are a lot of fun, but an absolutely awful place to get serious information.

EmperorFaustus
reply to post by CardiffGiant

 

Well, okay. We will agree to disagree.

Your opinion is that ground fighting is superior and that that has been proved by the Gracie's in Brazil and their domination of the early UFC.

My opinion is that both ground and stand up elements are of equal importance to combat efficiency, and that the evolution of MMA (amongst other things) proves that -- I mean, otherwise the Gracies and BJJ players would still be winning everything. But they're not.

For what it's worth, I do find catch fighting interesting, enjoy ground fighting, and have enjoyed our discussion.

my opinion is it is superior because of the 75 years in brazil. because of royce's early domination of the ufc. because of a catch wrestler named sakuraba that whipped up on some of the gracies. because of a sambo champ named fedor that dominated pride for 10 years.
for guys like randy couture, matt hughes, nogeuira, coleman, sudo, sato, penn, etc etc. its from the countless fighters across all promotions that rely strictly on ground fighting or are very, very well versed in it.

i think that stand up has importance as well. i believe i have said that several times. if you rely on stand up only you are going to be in trouble.
the gracies and the strict bjj guys are not winning everything anymore beause of what royce did.
you have sick muay thai strikers like anderson silva, alistair overeem, and wanderlei silva that also hold high ranks in bjj. you have cro cop that is a monster striker. he takes a bjj black belt, fabricio werdum into his camp to teach him grappling. you have bas rutten who was a monster striker and one of the best trainers alive that spends countless hours grappling. how many strikers can you think of that do not have any ground game?
you have monster catch wrestlers like sakuraba, paulson, and barnett.
all these reasons plus the smoker fights i have had have taught me grappling is superior.
when i was 15-17 all i did was soak up catch wrestling. this was after i was already wrestling in junior high and high school. there was a club of sorts that had a ring in the middle of it and they would hold 'mixed' fights. there was no prize money or anything. just fighting. so the ring was in the middle and there would table all over. people would come and eat dinner while watching these fights. i have never seen a venue like this.
my father used to have to sign releases so i could fight because i was not of age.
my opinions on grappling are based on what happened in that ring.
i taught my younger half brothers to catch. they moved out of state and are on the amateur mma circuit. they are kind of doing what i did years before but at a much more regulated level and they are doing very well.
of course they left me long ago and they train in striking as well but i have tapes of all their fight and their grappling helps both of them very much.
all these reasons are why i feel the way i do about grappling.

im glad you enjoy catch and i too have very much enjoyed talking to you and will continue if you want. we dont have to agree.
styles like catch wrestling are being passes on in more isolated spots in the states but it is steady making a comeback. it is far bigger in japan that it is here. there are a sprinkle of mma guys that are primarily catch.
i was into it 20 years ago when i was in the school wrestling programs. this is right around when royce made an appearance and grappling in general took off. everyone wanted bjj though and schools popped up everywhere.
i was grappling with old timers and their kids and even grand kids.
this was down south but they had retired from the north east.
these guys were monsters and i miss those days so much.

things change though. i started a family and had to work.
recently i had an accident at work and had my ring finger amputated and my middle finger was ripped up. there is a lot of damage there so things are different for me.
all i want to do now is pass everything on to my daughter and see what she does with it

Possibly one of the best fights ever seen on TV.



I challenge anyone to find a longer fight.

EmperorFaustus
reply to post by PhoenixOD

 

But what kind of Kung Fu are you talking about? There are over 1,000 styles, and they're quite different from one another. Some of them also involve competitive fighting like kickboxing, boxing, judo, wrestling and BJJ.

.

edit on 2-12-2013 by EmperorFaustus because: (no reason given)

take your pick

en.wikipedia.org...

they are all quite different but they are also very much the same. they may involve competitive fighting but they are against like styles. for example a kung fu competition.

there is a reason you dont see choy li fut practitioners as pro fighters. the reason is because it does not work at that level.
sure, if you have mr choy li fut guy going against joe blow know nothing at all he will probably do very well. if you put mr choy li fut against someone with decent knowledge of grappling and he is done.
people that practice kung fu do it for different reasons that to be adept at real life situations.

what you will also see are mma guys, both ground guys and strikers that 'used to' train in tae kwon do or kempo or what not. once they get serious about fighting they leave it behind.
it has happened over and over again.

i know he is not a fighter but joe rogan was a tae kwon do champ. he left that to train in jui jitsu. im telling you to he is a monster on the mat. he trains at 10th planet with eddie bravo and he taps guys all the time.
chuck liddell started out with kempo and left that behind for kick boxing and grappling.
bas rutten started out on tae kwon do. he left it for muah thai and jui jitsu and bas is one of the hardest strikers ever.

i could go on and on but you get the point.

you really think that the style of poking foot(its a real style) or plum blossom fist are the way to go for practical fighting?
i dont

there is a reason that all the best fighters leave these classical styles behind. there is also a reason that the best fighters do not represent these styles.
its because they are not effective

my opinion of course

reply to post by PhoenixOD


that was a great fight. i remember it.
sakuraba wore royce out. thats the first time that any gracie had ever thrown in the towel but he had to. sakuraba beat him down.

one of my favorites is sakuraba vs carlos newton. they agreed before the fight not to throw strikes and the match wound up being classic jui jitsu vs catch and it was a beautiful fight. that fight is a clinic of grappling techniquues on both sides. its amazing. you should look it up