LaGrange Point and the Making of a Universe

An interesting issue within astrophysics is the Lagrange point. This is a place in relation to massive objects like the Earth and Moon (as an example). Where the gravity between the two objects results in a gravitationally stable area
where in fact if a satellite where inserted (as is often done with respect to the LaGrange point between the Earth and the Sun). The effect it to generate an orbit where to some extent gravity is experienced.

Now lets take that to another level...

Consider a LaGrange point respective to 11 Galaxies existing at the core of a Galactic Super cluster. Each Galaxy being within one light year of each other, so that the Supermassive black holes at there individual centers can interact.

I am assuming a certain degree of symmetry and so ask what is then happening at the LaGrange point respective to the interaction of the Black Holes in that respect.

One way of relating to this is that the mass collected in a black hole exist in a state of stasis. That is until it interacts with the mass, in stasis, from another black hole.



Any thoughts?

The effect it to generate an orbit where to some extent gravity is experienced.

I thought it meant that the gravity from both objects canceled each other out, and hence no gravity would be felt? Maybe I misunderstand?

reply to post by VoidHawk

A Lagrange point is a special type of place where the gravity is stable. This is used with two objects in space where the smaller object orbits around the bigger one, like the sun and Earth, or the Earth and the moon.[1]

Source

Any thoughts?

Kashai
reply to post by VoidHawk

 

A Lagrange point is a special type of place where the gravity is stable. This is used with two objects in space where the smaller object orbits around the bigger one, like the sun and Earth, or the Earth and the moon.[1]

Source

Any thoughts?

edit on 30-10-2013 by Kashai because: Modifed content

He is right, it's where gravity is cancelled out. Gravity is experienced everywhere, these are the points where gravity is pulling equally in different directions, so they cancel each other out and objects in these locations will stay there.

Kashai
reply to post by VoidHawk

 

A Lagrange point is a special type of place where the gravity is stable. This is used with two objects in space where the smaller object orbits around the bigger one, like the sun and Earth, or the Earth and the moon.[1]

Source

Any thoughts?

edit on 30-10-2013 by Kashai because: Modifed content

Hmm, I still think its two gravity fields cancelling each other out, hence its stable. That would explain why something can orbit without being pulled in?
Way past my bed time, so I'm probably wrong

My issue is what happens when the gravitational force of 11 galaxies, cancel each other out. This with respect to their respective black holes interacting due to the fact they, are within one light year of each other.

The potential interactions occurring at the LaGrange point, with some degree of certainty. Could be much different than observed with regard to the same conditions between say, a Star and a Planet.


Any thoughts?

Kashai
My issue is what happens when the gravitational force of 11 galaxies, cancel each other out. This with respect to their respective black holes interacting due to the fact they, are within one light year of each other.

The potential interactions occurring at the LaGrange point, with some degree of certainty. Could be much different than observed with regard to the same conditions between say, a Star and a Planet.


Any thoughts?

edit on 31-10-2013 by Kashai because: modifed content

If there is a LaGrange point then we would be able to identify it. There would be an accumulation of "debris" or gas there. All that would happen is that objects there wouldn't move. I don't think you fully understand the term and thus are expecting something more. It wouldn't matter if they were 1 light year or 100 light years, and whether there is a black hole involved or not. The only difference would possibly be in how stable the point is.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


One way of understanding the potential is that the mass in each black hole (that was in stasis). Would be able to interact due to the inherent connection between each black hole. Presumably this could occur at the central point, at which, each black hole is interacting. Potentially this central point could very well be in relation to a LaGrange point, respective to each galaxy's position.

So at the LaGrange point in such a hypothetical situation mass that was in stasis could interact. This in relation to the mass accumulated in each black hole.


Any thoughts?

Kashai
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

One way of understanding the potential is that the mass in each black hole (that was in stasis). Would be able to interact due to the inherent connection between each black hole. Presumably this could occur at the central point, at which, each black hole is interacting. Potentially this central point could very well be in relation to a LaGrange point, respective to each galaxy's position.

So at the LaGrange point is such a hypothetical situation mass that was in stasis could interact. This in relation to the mass accumulated in each black hole.


Any thoughts?

edit on 31-10-2013 by Kashai because: Added content

edit on 31-10-2013 by Kashai because: Added content

No. You simply do not understand what the LGP is. The mass is already interacting. The LGP is where the interactions all cancel each other out. So each galaxy is pulling with the same force meaning that objects in the area do not move. There is no special connection.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


In retrospect and in relation to Galaxies interacting you are suggesting that the matter inherent to a supermassive black hole could not interact. That is not a valid conclusion IMO as once the black holes begin to interact any mass
no matter its differentiation due to contact with a black hole, could very well be in "play".

By interacting I mean these Black holes are in physical contact (within one light year of each other). In such a case from the relative perspective of how they are interacting, they are to some extent one thing. The matter they have trapped (as a result of past issues) is potentially, no longer reacting in some orientation respective to a type of stasis.

Rather it is effectively part of a process, t6he end result is the formation of a new black hole. The result of 11 galaxies having consolidated into one.

In this context that would effectively define the end of this particular "Universe".

Any thoughts?

reply to post by Kashai


In relation to what I am suggesting a special relation could exist, in consideration to situation where several black holes are involved.

OR perhaps you can present a citation to support your position?

Any thoughts?

reply to post by Kashai


The point is, the LGP is simply a point in space representing the mathematical cancelation of two or more gravitational forces. It's the place of equilibrium between opposite forces.

It's not really related to what you are suggesting, unless you're considering the black Holes modifying the Galaxies' gravitation force somehow. In this case, the LGP point would simply move.

However, I don't really know how this works according to Galaxies and Black Holes.

reply to post by LordAdef


The problem I am having with your point is what happens when ten or more sources of gravity interact. To be clear I am offering the idea that, in this case. The objects in question are capable of trapping matter. That to one degree or another cannot interact with other formations of matter trapped in the same black hole. But once a hypothetical black hole, interacts with another (or several others), the rules change. This issue of connectivity results in a condition where the matter of one black hole can physically interact with the matter of another.

In this case I am suggesting 11 supermassive black holes where they are physically connected, due to proximity.

If at least two black holes are interacting what is the effect to the mass it has collected?????


Any thoughts?

Kashai
reply to post by LordAdef

 

The problem I am having with your point is what happens when ten or more sources of gravity interact. To be clear I am offering the idea that, in this case. The objects in question are capable of trapping matter. That to one degree or another cannot interact with other formations of matter trapped in the same black hole. But once a hypothetical black hole, interacts with another (or several others), the rules change. This issue of connectivity results in a condition where the matter of one black hole can physically interact with the matter of another.

In this case I am suggesting 11 supermassive black holes where they are physically connected, due to proximity.

If at least two black holes are interacting what is the effect to the mass it has collected?????


Any thoughts?

There is no effect. The LGP has nothing to do with the mass inside black holes. I don't know why you keep suggesting it does, it doesn't, at all, in the slightest.

Black holes already exert their gravity towards each other, so I have no clue what you are asking.

Kashai
reply to post by LordAdef

 

The problem I am having with your point is what happens when ten or more sources of gravity interact. To be clear I am offering the idea that, in this case. The objects in question are capable of trapping matter. That to one degree or another cannot interact with other formations of matter trapped in the same black hole. But once a hypothetical black hole, interacts with another (or several others), the rules change. This issue of connectivity results in a condition where the matter of one black hole can physically interact with the matter of another.

In this case I am suggesting 11 supermassive black holes where they are physically connected, due to proximity.

If at least two black holes are interacting what is the effect to the mass it has collected?????


Any thoughts?

A black hole is point mass with a point source of gravity. Since it's volume is zero it is infinitely dense. The singularity is just that a singularity. It has no size. It is smaller than a proton, smaller than a quark, smaller than anything. It's size is zero. Black holes can have any mass; 1 gram or a 1 quadrillion grams. The event horizon is simply the distance from the center at which light cannot escape creating a sphere of blackness. The more massive the point mass the larger the sphere of blackness. Black holes can orbit each other or merge together. A black hole can be so massive that the matter falling into it can continue to fall for a long time after it has already passed the event horizon. Theoretically a black hole can be so massive that whole stars or galaxies exist intact inside the event horizon before eventually joining the singularity. I can see where you could have two black holes so close together that their event horizons overlap, but I think they would eventually merge. If you have two supermassive black holes of equal mass with overlapping event horizons with an object equidistant between them the gravitational force difference relative to distance would be massive even on the nanometer scale. Maybe you could get one quark or proton hover between the two, but any atom would be ripped apart. If there was a black hole so large that whole galaxies were within its event horizon and there were a lot of galaxies between the Earth and this gigantic black sphere how would we be able to detect it? Would this explain the missing mass of the universe that they made up dark matter to explain? Are there black holes that cannot be detected? Maybe the entire universe is surrounded by a spherical assembly of super-supermassive black holes. Wouldn't that explain the accelerating expansion of the universe?

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


I am asking that what happens to the mass collected by a supermassive black hole (which can be released when Black holes decay) when it interacts physically with one or more, other supermassive black holes???

Within one light year any number of galaxies can interact in the context of the core of a galactic super cluster. Assuming a degree of symmetry we have 11 galaxies within 1 light year of each other.


The effect generates a special condition relative to the LaGrange point respective to all 11 Galaxies interacting. At this point of reference (the LaGrange point) what is occurring is that the respective black holes are interacting physically (at a distance of one light year from each other). The matter trapped in each respective black hole, in relation to such a situation can no longer be defined as in a state of stasis. In such a situation (when black holes interact physically), whatever mass it has collected does not react as if it were in some form of stasis.

This is not really difficult to understand...

Any thoughts?

reply to post by Kashai

Why are you using the number 11?

Typically I see Lagrangian points discussed for 2 or 3 body systems. Though our solar system has more than that, you can clearly see objects represented in green, which accumulate in the Lagrangian points 60 degrees ahead of and 60 degrees behind Jupiter in its orbit:

en.wikipedia.org...


The orbits of the green colored objects are somewhat sable, somewhat unstable. They probably orbit the LaGrange point as the Lagrange point orbits the sun, kind of like the old epicyle system from history.

You don't seem to understand Lagrange points, but you're right about one thing, there is no guarantee of stability for objects passing through them. LaGrange points are part of the Interplanetary Transport Network.


The constricted areas in that illustration are LaGrangian points, so obviously objects can pass right through them and they don't have to be relatively "static" or somewhat stable like the green-colored object in the above illustration related to Jupiter. However if you decelerate an object approaching a LaGrange point, you can get it to orbit the LaGrange point and NASA has done this many times on many missions, as listed here:

LaGrange Point

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Actually I imagine it could take many more but for the purposes of explanation 11 gets the idea across. I understand what LaGrange points are, as a place where an object does not need energy to stay put in space, respective to
other massive objects


I am suggesting that the difference in scope is an issue.

reply to post by Kashai

If all 11 objects are equidistant from a LaGrange point so there really is one, then at the exact LaGrange point, there would be no difference between the "cancellation" in the 3 body system or the 11 body system, at the exact LaGrange point. If you really understood LaGrannge points you wouldn't think there was a difference at the LaGrange point, which depended on the number of bodies.

However, as I pointed out above, NASA doesn't usually put probes exactly at the LaGrange point, but near it. So in a case like this, the gravitational effects are not "canceling" at some distance away from the LaGrange point, and in such an event of course the number of bodies and their arrangement would have an effect on the behavior of such a NASA probe, which is always in a region where the gravity doesn't cancel out.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


That is not it, its about the forces involved.

I am not talking about planets.