Police shoot 13 year old carrying fake rifle.

reply to post by blackthorne


Certainly times have changed, i remember a time when things were different way back in 1994 myself and my friends would go out into the woods and have BB gun wars, occasionally the battles would end up on the streets and yards of our neighborhood.

I Actually remember a certain incident where Myself and a friend were attempting to flank the other group by jumping some fences and going though a yard, there was a random officer on patrol he saw us and stopped his patrol car and said to me out the window " Hey kid the enemy is over there " pointing at the other kids and he just drove off. Its incidences like this that make myself realize that how lucky i was to have grown up in a pre 911 world, it . Try doing that today and get the swat team over in full riot gear and an immediate death sentence.

Bedlam
However, given the ultimate truth that it wasn't a weapon and the kid wasn't armed at all, then that's not much of an argument. You might say the LEO saw something that wasn't there to begin with, which isn't exactly a shining achievement, but it's hard to argue at this point the kid had a holdout only obvious to the LEO.

Only if we continue to ignore the standard set by the Supreme Court. An officers actions cannot be judged using 20/20 hindsight. While I understand your argument, knowing the persons age and weapon status is not a factor as it occurred after the incident.

Bedlam
ETA: off to death by slides as we resume work here, it'll be my only day shift shift until Christmas.

Ex - in a weird sense, for the four years previous to this one, I was technically a sort of LEO myself, as a CSSO/FSO I get to play a US Marshal, at least on the grounds of the facility. Now, I'm away too much and we spun the bottle and appointed someone else. I always wanted one of you guys to try forcing your way onto the grounds so I could strip search you at gun point, but none of you ever tried. Except for maybe that fire inspector that finally got the message he couldn't go into the secure areas. Alas.

edit on 28-10-2013 by Bedlam because: (no reason given)

Forcing your way into a restricted area is very much different from what occurred in this incident. Different standards as well as laws apply.

Or were you just sharing that info as just a general statement / conversation?

I sent you a private message... have fun at work and I look forward to debating with you in the future.

Thank you.

The Sonoma County sheriff's deputy who fired the shots that killed 13-year-old Andy Lopez last week is a firearms expert, Iraq War veteran and prolific contributor to magazines and online forums dealing with guns and police use of force. The Sheriff's Office confirmed Sunday that Deputy Erick Gelhaus, 48, fired the shots. A 24-year veteran of the office, Gelhaus has been a frequent advocate in his writing for a prepared, aggressive stance in law enforcement, a profession he has described as a "calling" and likened to a "contact sport. In a 2008 article he wrote for S.W.A.T. Magazine about strategies for surviving an ambush in the "kill zone," Gelhaus began by describing the "nanoseconds (that) seem like minutes as you scramble to react while simultaneously thinking about your children and spouse."

...Gelhaus joined the Sheriff's Office in 1989 and is one of its two dozen field training officers -- a group in charge of training newly hired and newly minted deputies -- in addition to being a firearms instructor and range master with special training in firearms safety and instruction.

He has testified in court as an expert on gangs and narcotics, according to a colleague. In 2004, he was awarded the office's Medal of Valor for pulling occupants of a burning vehicle to safety.

Dueñas on Sunday described Gelhaus as a "solid employee" and proven instructor among the office's 275 deputies and roughly 250 correctional officers.
Source

So now we learn that the murder of Andy Lopez saw his job as a "calling" and a "contact sport". I guess little Andy got a taste of this killers contact sport. He must be a real sportmens, kind of like shooting fish in a barrel.

Interesting note about the last person he shot...

Gelhaus' role as a firearms instructor dates back to at least 1995. In an accident that made the news that year, he shot himself in the leg with his service handgun while holstering the gun to frisk a teen for weapons.

...He wrote for S.W.A.T. in 2008 that among the things he tells his trainees early on is that "Today is the day you may need to kill someone in order to go home."

"If you cannot turn on the 'Mean Gene' for yourself, who will?" he wrote. "If you find yourself in an ambush, in the kill zone, you need to turn on that mean gene."

Source

And look at this....

Gelhaus chimed in, writing that "It's going to come down to YOUR ability to articulate to law enforcement and very likely the Court that you were in fear of death or serious bodily injury.

"I think we keep coming back to this, articulation -- your ability to explain why -- will be quite significant," Gelhaus wrote.

Source

He's been trained to know what words to use, he's even training others in what words to use in order to kill.

Craninalbliss
reply to post by blackthorne


Certainly times have changed, i remember a time when things were different way back in 1994 myself and my friends would go out into the woods and have BB gun wars, occasionally the battles would end up on the streets and yards of our neighborhood.

I Actually remember a certain incident where Myself and a friend were attempting to flank the other group by jumping some fences and going though a yard, there was a random officer on patrol he saw us and stopped his patrol car and said to me out the window " Hey kid the enemy is over there " pointing at the other kids and he just drove off. Its incidences like this that make myself realize that how lucky i was to have grown up in a pre 911 world, it . Try doing that today and get the swat team over in full riot gear and an immediate death sentence.

 

yes indeed, a time when they were actually accountable, moral men and women, now not so much, most of them are mentally ill really. just cashing a pay check with no cares in the world, if a citizen even looks at them cross eyed, shoot first ask questions later, that's who they are now, the SS. guilty until proven innocent, unfortunately they are usually dead when the blue death figures it out but they they are going home to their families tonight!!!!!, not so much for everyone they execute.

cops should be stripped of everything, every one of them should get no special treatment that other citizens don't get, that would at least remove all the cowards, which most are in real life.

i mean who wakes up one day and decides hey, i want to go mess with people for a living, i want to make their lives hell, yeah that's my job!!!! just mentally ill people, that's who.

LittleBlackEagle

dragonridr

LittleBlackEagle
reply to post by Dav1d

 

yes four cops oh boy lets jump for joy the constitution has been restored. four cops out of hundreds of cases of police brutality everyday, most un reported, that's really reassuring i tell ya.

cops need to have their blue shield of death removed, no more immunity from any prosecution, personal responsibility and accountability, strangely the same thing that needs to be done to all govt. employees and elected scum bags. they all hide behind their govt. ID while committing crime after crime. lock them all up and start from scratch.

Excuse me do you have access to these hundreds of reports of police brutality daily? Id sure like to see that might change my mind and i to will believe officers are evil incarnate. Sounds to me you have issues with your government i would suggest becoming more active in your local government.Do you bother to attend the meetings they hold i doubt it but its there for you to voice your opinion. Then theres all ways helping local candidates win elections and they can help correcting problems pick a representative or for that matter run yourself. If enough people think like you do youll win. However what your doing is calling the system corrupt but take no action to correct it what does that make you? Theres an old saying if you arent part of the solution your part of the problem.

what i have access to is none of your business, but i'll tell you anyway, family members in law enforcement and they all tell me the same thing, the system is broke and will not be fixed anytime soon.

did you say voting??????????

yes voting has done us well hasn't it. problem is, people cannot be trusted in positions of power, it has never worked in the history of mankind and will not magically begin working now. positions of power need to be eliminated, we need to start over from scratch so this crap storm never happens again.

i am part of the solution, it's people like you who still believe the lies, that hinders progress, people that think this system we have can work, when it has been working well for the elite, it ain't broke, it's manufactured serfdom buddy and you can't fix that.

I didnt say vote i said get involved sad you dont see the difference did you know citizens can actually set police policies in there community. Then there is being involved with local government you start there and work your way up. But someone who thinks they know everything and is just dropping out of the system your indefinably the problem. Because welcome to the real world there is no outside the system.I see you seem to be unhappy so maybe this can help.

Indolence is a delightful but distressing state; we must be doing something to be happy.
Mahatma Gandhi

LittleBlackEagle

Craninalbliss
reply to post by blackthorne


Certainly times have changed, i remember a time when things were different way back in 1994 myself and my friends would go out into the woods and have BB gun wars, occasionally the battles would end up on the streets and yards of our neighborhood.

I Actually remember a certain incident where Myself and a friend were attempting to flank the other group by jumping some fences and going though a yard, there was a random officer on patrol he saw us and stopped his patrol car and said to me out the window " Hey kid the enemy is over there " pointing at the other kids and he just drove off. Its incidences like this that make myself realize that how lucky i was to have grown up in a pre 911 world, it . Try doing that today and get the swat team over in full riot gear and an immediate death sentence.

 

yes indeed, a time when they were actually accountable, moral men and women, now not so much, most of them are mentally ill really. just cashing a pay check with no cares in the world, if a citizen even looks at them cross eyed, shoot first ask questions later, that's who they are now, the SS. guilty until proven innocent, unfortunately they are usually dead when the blue death figures it out but they they are going home to their families tonight!!!!!, not so much for everyone they execute.

cops should be stripped of everything, every one of them should get no special treatment that other citizens don't get, that would at least remove all the cowards, which most are in real life.

i mean who wakes up one day and decides hey, i want to go mess with people for a living, i want to make their lives hell, yeah that's my job!!!! just mentally ill people, that's who.

If you lump everyone into categories like you do i can guarantee two things. One you have very limited understanding of people and two your hatred shows your true character.Because people with preconceived notions wont find anything other then what they believe.

dragonridr

LittleBlackEagle

dragonridr

LittleBlackEagle
reply to post by Dav1d

 

yes four cops oh boy lets jump for joy the constitution has been restored. four cops out of hundreds of cases of police brutality everyday, most un reported, that's really reassuring i tell ya.

cops need to have their blue shield of death removed, no more immunity from any prosecution, personal responsibility and accountability, strangely the same thing that needs to be done to all govt. employees and elected scum bags. they all hide behind their govt. ID while committing crime after crime. lock them all up and start from scratch.

Excuse me do you have access to these hundreds of reports of police brutality daily? Id sure like to see that might change my mind and i to will believe officers are evil incarnate. Sounds to me you have issues with your government i would suggest becoming more active in your local government.Do you bother to attend the meetings they hold i doubt it but its there for you to voice your opinion. Then theres all ways helping local candidates win elections and they can help correcting problems pick a representative or for that matter run yourself. If enough people think like you do youll win. However what your doing is calling the system corrupt but take no action to correct it what does that make you? Theres an old saying if you arent part of the solution your part of the problem.

what i have access to is none of your business, but i'll tell you anyway, family members in law enforcement and they all tell me the same thing, the system is broke and will not be fixed anytime soon.

did you say voting??????????

yes voting has done us well hasn't it. problem is, people cannot be trusted in positions of power, it has never worked in the history of mankind and will not magically begin working now. positions of power need to be eliminated, we need to start over from scratch so this crap storm never happens again.

i am part of the solution, it's people like you who still believe the lies, that hinders progress, people that think this system we have can work, when it has been working well for the elite, it ain't broke, it's manufactured serfdom buddy and you can't fix that.

I didnt say vote i said get involved sad you dont see the difference did you know citizens can actually set police policies in there community. Then there is being involved with local government you start there and work your way up. But someone who thinks they know everything and is just dropping out of the system your indefinably the problem. Because welcome to the real world there is no outside the system.I see you seem to be unhappy so maybe this can help.

Indolence is a delightful but distressing state; we must be doing something to be happy.
Mahatma Gandhi

everything you said, as a possible remedy has been tried, it doesn't work, i'm sorry. our world is wrought with your good intentions, only problem is it is run by criminals in every department, that's what we have with society's model, nothing but death and destruction of everything imaginable.

i don't hate anyone and i don't wish harm on anyone, but something has to change and the methods you outlined have failed, failed, failed. you failed, i failed, we all failed together. our courts are crooked, our voting is crooked, our legislators are crooked, so who do you suppose we turn to? i'll tell you who, communities that's who, cops are not needed as is 90% of government. all we do is work to support an ever enlarging govt. one that takes care of it's own, you can't win with that.

govt. has accomplished many things and one of them is to fear monger citizens into thinking we need them and we don't. if you have a problem in a community you get together and deal with it in a smart and caring way, together, without govt. no elected officials, no lifetime retirement, no life time benefits, just common human beings working together for a common good, what ever happened to that model? i know what happened to it, govt. see they need power to remain and allowing human beings to work things out just won't do, they want the money and power and control, it's so blatantly obvious.

Looks like Erick Gelhaus has had time to go around and request his post to be hidden, seems like he doesn't want his past comments known. Interesting wonder just what he is hiding?

But google still shows some interesting things...

reply to post by Dav1d


I think some of us saw that coming. Guess the other officer hadn't fully got his mind wrapped around the training given his actions. I would not be surprised if the trainer is looking down at the other officer as a training failure.

I also think this will be how he is found to have acted appropriately. It will be seen to those making the call that with all that background he must have been right.

I find this mental state for an officer more than a bit scary.

reply to post by roadgravel

What is scary is he publicly made his opinions known, and felt free to use his real name and status, the rot goes much higher than him. His superiors must have know, and approved his mindset, his outlook on life. That's grounds to be terminated here.

One still working link.

GJM on 05/23/2013 at 6:12 pm said:

Neat!

Cross eye dominant — left side handgun, right side long gun?

Erick Gelhaus on 05/23/2013 at 11:39 pm said:

This gun I’ll shoot right-handed because of the butt cuff. Anything else with a stock on it is primarily used left-handed. Never heard anything back on the magazine cut-off, it does allow for single shell loading via the ejection port.

Link

Pic of him shooting a shotgun

The flag on the cap is a nice touch.

Erick Gelhaus
Erick Gelhaus has been a Deputy Sheriff with a large northern California Sheriff's department for the past sixteen years. Currently assigned to graveyard patrol as a field training officer, he is also a Senior Firearms Instructor. His prior assignments include gang violence suppression and narcotics investigations. Erick is back from a recent deployment to Iraq as part of the Global War on Terror and led an Infantry squad. In addition to being an adjunct instructor at Gunsite, he holds several firearms instructor and armorer certifications. Erick is a contributing staff writer for S.W.A.T. magazine.

Source

He has far more experience with guns than the normal cop, at that range I've got to question why he believed it was a toy! That becomes less and less believable every day....

Maybe he assumed the kid was in a gang by his look. I got the impression that people in the neighborhood didn't see it as bad place but that the police did.

tothetenthpower
reply to post by Vasa Croe

 

Had it been a real AK he would have easily outgunned the officers.

Really? A 13 year old, carrying an assault rifle, who is probably untrained with it, would out gun two highly trained police officers with precision hand guns?

No.

Ever watch video of child soldiers and what not? The thing they say the most about them is that they are fearless after a while, but also a very bad shot. I get the officers wanted to keep their safety as a priority, that's fine, but how many 13 year olds do they see brandishing assault riffles and using them on people?

Actually, how many child gunmen do they see in Sonoma county?

There's no justification for this show of force towards a 13 year old boy, who wasn't threatening them. Even if he didn't put it down, there's never any mention that he was pointing it at them.

I would also think that a warning shot, you know at his feet or something, probably would have scared him enough to drop it, as opposed to shooting him MULTIPLE TIMES.

~Tenth

After reading the whole article all of the pages, I realized there are many possibilities here and we can only guess.

They do not say he did not brandish the gun at them they do say the repeatedly told him to drop it. The boy recently was moved to another school which can be hard on a kid that age, was he depressed, was he trying to commit suicide by cop, was he enacting a gang ritual to join by carrying a replica gun and not responding when confronted by the police?

In a video a girl who knew him said that several of the boys played with that same toy gun. IIRC, it was mentioned he was taking it to another friend house.

I am not going to believe suicide by cop is even in the game.

Found this from him,

In the fall of 2002 I purchased a Point Blank Legacy Premiere ballistic vest to replace my then five plus year old Kevlar vest. It is my understanding from Point Blank Armor’s literature that this vest is made of Zylon and Gold-Flex. The cost of the vest was just over $550. I also purchased the DC-471 rifle plate to go with it. I received the vest in December 2002 and began wearing it on duty as a patrol deputy.

Source

So he not only wore a duty vest, but it was one with a rifle plate as well, back in 2002. In 2013 it sure is likely he was wearing something better when he faced this little boy, this unarmed child.

I came across this,

Last year I fought an AW case in Sonoma County and won. They tried to get a felony conviction for an off list lower with a bullet button (ten round mag inserted, had to show the officers how to remove it) and other charges for having high cap mags in the vehicle.

I know for a fact that the D.A. and the Sonoma S.O. are familiar with bullet buttons and AW identification because I taught them. It cost me about 7 thousand dollars out of pocket but I won and they dropped all charges. They also returned all of my property.

That S.O. has a guy named Eric Gelhouse (sp?) that was listed as their "Firearms Expert". He looked at my rifle and called it an unregistered AW. That was what started my nightmare. I provided my lawyer and the D.A. with a copy of the DOJ AW ID guide. I had pages relating to my rifle and magazines tabbed, and sentences highlighted. I also provided them with a copy of the Sacramento P.D. training bulletin about AW's and bullet buttons.

Then, right there in front of the judge, in a moment I will never forget as long as I live, the DA stood there and said "Yeah so he had one of those button things on the gun but that doesn't matter he had high cap mags in the vehicle and they would have been easy to load".

That's when they offered me a deal of 1 year probation, no jail time, and they keep the rifle and my Kimber 1911. I said no deal let's please just hurry up and go to trial, then they dropped the charges completely and returned my property.

The point is that I know this particular county SO and DA know about off list lowers, high cap mags and bullet buttons.

I would be happy to do whatever I can to help with this case by testifying and or providing the CGF with any information.

Source

I think this shows a pattern, a willingness to fabricate...
At the very least it shows his willingness to see an Assault Rifle that isn't there.

I found a thread where Eric actually posted on the shooting of an unarmed person, of course his comment has been hidden... > link <

What is still there shows he has thought about the subject.

LittleBlackEagle
reply to post by Dav1d

 

yes four cops oh boy lets jump for joy the constitution has been restored. four cops out of hundreds of cases of police brutality everyday, most un reported, that's really reassuring i tell ya.

cops need to have their blue shield of death removed, no more immunity from any prosecution, personal responsibility and accountability, strangely the same thing that needs to be done to all govt. employees and elected scum bags. they all hide behind their govt. ID while committing crime after crime. lock them all up and start from scratch.

I would like to point out that of all the people condemning the acts of this police officer, David has been one of the most outspoken, and reasonable in their arguments, more so than me I have let my anger get the better of me.
David is NOT defending corrupt police officers, he is condemning them.
And I agree with him that not all cops are bad, there are plenty of good cops out there, luckily for us, but that doesnt stop the actions of the corrupt from tarnishing the good that the good cops do, thus painting them all into a bad light. Hence.. bringing the force into disrepute.
The police force is necessary, a corrupt police force is anathema to the whole concept of law enforcement.

Dav1d
I came across this,

Last year I fought an AW case in Sonoma County and won. They tried to get a felony conviction for an off list lower with a bullet button (ten round mag inserted, had to show the officers how to remove it) and other charges for having high cap mags in the vehicle.

I know for a fact that the D.A. and the Sonoma S.O. are familiar with bullet buttons and AW identification because I taught them. It cost me about 7 thousand dollars out of pocket but I won and they dropped all charges. They also returned all of my property.

That S.O. has a guy named Eric Gelhouse (sp?) that was listed as their "Firearms Expert". He looked at my rifle and called it an unregistered AW. That was what started my nightmare. I provided my lawyer and the D.A. with a copy of the DOJ AW ID guide. I had pages relating to my rifle and magazines tabbed, and sentences highlighted. I also provided them with a copy of the Sacramento P.D. training bulletin about AW's and bullet buttons.

Then, right there in front of the judge, in a moment I will never forget as long as I live, the DA stood there and said "Yeah so he had one of those button things on the gun but that doesn't matter he had high cap mags in the vehicle and they would have been easy to load".

That's when they offered me a deal of 1 year probation, no jail time, and they keep the rifle and my Kimber 1911. I said no deal let's please just hurry up and go to trial, then they dropped the charges completely and returned my property.

The point is that I know this particular county SO and DA know about off list lowers, high cap mags and bullet buttons.

I would be happy to do whatever I can to help with this case by testifying and or providing the CGF with any information.

Source

I think this shows a pattern, a willingness to fabricate...
At the very least it shows his willingness to see an Assault Rifle that isn't there.

I found a thread where Eric actually posted on the shooting of an unarmed person, of course his comment has been hidden... > link <

What is still there shows he has thought about the subject.

edit on 28-10-2013 by Dav1d because: (no reason given)

After all of these quotes you have posted of the officers own words and attitudes, I find it highly ironic that he would empty his clip all over the place in a moment of scared "madness".
If this is the sort of officer that is TEACHING, then Im ever more shocked and horrified, as if that was even possible.

There seems to be two likely ways this can play out.

1) he shot the child, and the child fell to the ground. One bullet penetrated the child wrist and his hip. The pause occurred that was reported, additional shots were fired at the child. And then in a calculated manor additional shots were fire at structures to suggest this was done under stress.

2) the child remained standing after he was shot in the butt, the hip, the chest, and a bullet penetrated his wrist and went on to penetrate the other structures behind him.

I do not believe there is a meaningful way to determine the order of the shots. We know his back was to the cops, and im guessing he got hit in the butt first. (Others belive he got hit in the butt when he was down on the ground.) Then in his wrist and the bullet went into his hip. Then his chest. Ultimately i believe it will be an educated guess. A guess that is all to probable to defend the police and county. Nor do I believe the child was so full of drugs that he could remain standing after being shot in the hip. I don't see this child taking hit after hit from an instructor playing his game, and the use of Hollow point bullets was once a war crime. These bullets are designed to give a massive shock to the body.

I don't believe he walked up to the child and shot him from above while he was on the ground, but rather that he shot from behind cover of his vehicle that suggest to me the shots on his left side might have been fired while he was on the ground.

Perhaps we will learn this officer played with the child and attempted to inflect maximum pain before killing the child.... He is an instructor and expert, at firing weapons, in just this scenario, it will be interesting to see if anyone ask why they were spread out the way they were. What would this child feel before he died. But I suspect we'll never hear that.