There are only two super geniuses of science that I am aware of

mikegrouchy
But I get the sense that more evidence isn't really required in your case.

Thanks for marginalizing my point of view into a well cast stereotype whilst complaining about persons being marginalized into stereotypes OP.

Your googled screenshot doesn't back up any of the following:

1. Einstein and wife as a loving team (Einstein cheated on his wife)
2. Feminists revising significant (Your implied conclusion) portions of scientific history incorrectly to promote women being plagiarized (One of the links you googled was from biblebelievers.org - bible believers aren't a known bastion of feminist theory.)
3. Teams of lovers producing significantly better results in science

Nice thread OP. The subject of scientists stealing ideas from their spouse assitants piqued my interest recently thanks to an "I F****** Love Science (facebook page) post. It listed a dozen or so potential cases. My concern was that while there may well be a feminist issue at play here, power dynamics may have had as great an impact. Obviously in the past (and argueably the present) women were naturally lower in all hierarchical structures, so were many, many men. Could the theft of discoveries be an issue that trancends gender? How many ideas were stolen from male lab assistant?

“Three things only do slaves require: work, food, and their religion.”

6th column
- Robert Heinlein




The modern revisionism that created the battle of the sexes,
is not science. It's not even poor science. It is destructive
to science.

Mike

Pinke

mikegrouchy
But I get the sense that more evidence isn't really required in your case.

Thanks for marginalizing my point of view into a well cast stereotype whilst complaining about persons being marginalized into stereotypes OP.

Your googled screenshot doesn't back up any of the following:

1. Einstein and wife as a loving team (Einstein cheated on his wife)
2. Feminists revising significant (Your implied conclusion) portions of scientific history incorrectly to promote women being plagiarized (One of the links you googled was from biblebelievers.org - bible believers aren't a known bastion of feminist theory.)
3. Teams of lovers producing significantly better results in science

It was meant as a compliment.
That one was not so much interested in the mud,
but looking at the solutions. That a big laundry list
of evidence of the original statement was not necessary.














Interesting that somehow this is being shifted to
religion bashing.

Mike

March of the Fire Ants
Nice thread OP. The subject of scientists stealing ideas from their spouse assitants piqued my interest recently thanks to an "I F****** Love Science (facebook page) post. It listed a dozen or so potential cases. My concern was that while there may well be a feminist issue at play here, power dynamics may have had as great an impact. Obviously in the past (and argueably the present) women were naturally lower in all hierarchical structures, so were many, many men. Could the theft of discoveries be an issue that trancends gender? How many ideas were stolen from male lab assistant?

It is definitely an agenda,
and TPTB are scared witless that we will stop
bashing each other and rediscover the joy of
science, and scientific discovery together.









Beware psychology phrases like "power dynamics",
it does not appear in any of the steps of the
Scientific Method, that I am aware of.

Mike

mikegrouchy
It was meant as a compliment.

Sorry, my English discombobulation device thing must be off. My English is sometimes a bit poop sticks. I wouldn't marginalize me by implying I'm smart either. ahaha

a big laundry list of evidence of the original statement was not necessary.

Don't need big. Just need evidence.

Interesting that somehow this is being shifted to religion bashing.

If directed at me, there is no bashing of religion in pointing out that (in general) Christians are not at the front of the feminist movement. Quite close to the back actually.

I have no issue with blaming a movement or group correctly for something that they're actually responsible for, but even with the formidable Karen Straughn in your corner I think there is some hyperbole here?

I'm not sure why the government / TPTB would be concerned about couples researching honestly ... they just buy the civilian research teams they want. Why not just buy husband and wife? I know they are worried about citizens being more technically literate.

We're not far off building and programming our own drones on a regular basis, and there is censorship in that area! That's not a feminist issue though?

reply to post by mikegrouchy


Well... I think there are many other geniuses than you mentioned, for example, Tesla, Newton and Da Vinci. Your theory about a husband and wife team could hold some water, however, as it is easier to work on things when you have someone to work on them with, especially if they are high-intensity, this requires some specialization.

I don't limit this to romantic partnerships, in fact, I find intellectual partnerships to be a lot more appealing - and they can be either with man or woman as a man or woman - what I find limiting is the Western idea that your only partner as a man has to be your wife.

That can e a lot more strict in conservative areas, although in liberal areas, I have found that close friends are hard to come by - this is my experience - thus why I am frustrated with increased polarization and radicalization of political parties.

I also prefer girls (or women) as friends in a lot of cases. I find there is a lot less limited perspective once one goes beyond sex.

What I think is that people should feel free to work in teams regardless of gender and not be so paranoid about sharing ideas, yes both should be credited, but this new paranoid branch of thinking that assumes people can make discoveries by themselves without communicating with someone else with a different perspective is somewhat delusional.

Actually, that's why I like your idea of the husband and wife team. But I would suggest co-crediting, not becoming paranoid about stealing ideas. Even someone listening to you and helping you sort out your thoughts counts as being an assistant.

I will go to say that paranoia about sharing ideas is the number one factor I have experienced in scientific, musical and personal endeavors that stalls progress.

Progress simply cannot be made in a society that is paranoid about sharing it. Even if Einstein worked together with his wife to make his discoveries, they are not stolen, she should have just been added as part of the team.

Although in today's society, it does get really rough and competitive, people are downright playing dirty.

I disagree.
It's Wile E Coyote, Ssuuppar genius, and Brain. He's still trying to take over the world..

NARF!


(sorry, it just had to be said)

reply to post by kimish


Tesla didn't have a wife, he had a pigeon whom he loved... have a problem with that??

darkbake
reply to post by mikegrouchy

 

Well... I think there are many other geniuses than you mentioned, for example, Tesla, Newton and Da Vinci. Your theory about a husband and wife team could hold some water, however, as it is easier to work on things when you have someone to work on them with, especially if they are high-intensity, this requires some specialization.

I don't limit this to romantic partnerships, in fact, I find intellectual partnerships to be a lot more appealing - and they can be either with man or woman as a man or woman - what I find limiting is the Western idea that your only partner as a man has to be your wife.

That can e a lot more strict in conservative areas, although in liberal areas, I have found that close friends are hard to come by - this is my experience - thus why I am frustrated with increased polarization and radicalization of political parties.

I also prefer girls (or women) as friends in a lot of cases. I find there is a lot less limited perspective once one goes beyond sex.

Ah Da Vinci, a figure of the Renaissance Ideal.

"Off I fly, careering far
In chase of Pollys, prettier far
Than any of their namesakes are
—The Polymaths and Polyhistors,
Polyglots and all their sisters."

Title: The Devil Among Scholars
By: Thomas Moore

The Renaissance Ideal, the person who is a mathematician, architect, composer, engineer, musician, doctor, lawyer, and builder all rolled into one. This used to be the expected human ideal.

But the field of knowledge has been so specialized into so many tiny categories that now one engineer usually has little understanding of another engineers field of work. There are like 800+ different degrees just in engineering alone. Hell I'll bet even Bill Gates doesn't know what windows is doing. Has humankind already designed itself out of the equation?


Are we to continue denying ourselves the chance
to be Collaborators & Lovers? I think not.

Just as there is a difference between gifted and wonderful,
as there is a distinction between wonderful and Ideal, like
genius is greater than Ideal, so is Super Genius greater than
genius alone.



It's simple.
We only have to want it,
and to know how to express it to someone who understands.

Mike

darkbake

I will go to say that paranoia about sharing ideas is the number one factor I have experienced in scientific, musical and personal endeavors that stalls progress.

Worth quoting again.

What a world this will be when we
love our research AND our partners.


Mike

Firstly what is the criteria that defines a super genius vs a normal genius?

Just some things to note.

1. Newton wasn't the only guy to invent calculus, a Russian mathematician also did so about about the same time. Sorry I cant recall his name at the moment.

2. Newton was actually wrong about several things, mainly his explanation of how light worked.

3. Newton was also into occultism and other random things.

4. A few candidates I would nominated for super genius would be Feynman and the Asian fellow who graded university at the age of 8 with an IQ of 210. I forget his name... I am bad with names.

5. Einstein admitted that at his level he wasn't the best at math, he attributed some of the math required for his solutions to the appropriate mathematicians, Einstein did not do all his work on his own.

6. Einstein and Feynman both mastered differential calculus at an early age and exhibited understanding over it that was considered beyond normal by their piers.

7. I would also consider nominating Schwarzschild a super genius as he is one of the first to come up with a solution to Einstein's filed equations that Einstein himself couldn't do. He did this while he was serving in the army... in WW2.

8. I would consider Tesla a super genius, some of his inventions and theories were leagues ahead of his time and some we can't even understand to this day. I am in electrical engineering and I appreciate Tesla's accomplish more then most because I see first how how far ahead of his time his work actually was. Much of it is still the fundamental of what we electrical engineers use today.

I do not agree that radical feminism or it's revisionist tendencies are part of a liberal agenda of TPTB. I believe that feminism in it's infancy was an absolutely nessecary struggle. Modern feminism, aspects of which I find deeply distasteful, seems to have carried on beyond any legitimate reasoning, gender equality is the modern struggle both sexes should unite on, in the various areas of society where equality does not exist (on either side).

This gender biased revisionism seems to me to be a semi logical continuation of a movement which has achieved it's main aims. Lamentable as it is, feminin gender blindness in this context is understandable, forgivable and with some level headed debate from moderates on each side should be fixable. There are other more worrying aspects of modern feminism which I would be more interesting in critisizing thoroughly, don't think this is the thread for that though?

I agree with what you said about small science teams potentially being more effective than large corporations, and that this could be an idea TPtb want to keep on the down low.

No, power dynamics is not part of the scientific method, nor is feminist revisionism. Both of these however, are subjects which could be and have been studied using the scientific method. I'm getting the feeling you don't give phsychology that much credit as a science, I find that quite baffling but there you go.

PtolemyII
I disagree.
It's Wile E Coyote, Ssuuppar genius, and Brain. He's still trying to take over the world..

NARF!


(sorry, it just had to be said)

LOL, well played.

Yes the conditioning goes deep into our childhoods for some of us.

Against the idea that we could all be genius,
that scientists were frequently "mad",
and that being a super genius smacked of ego
and other crimes against decent people everywhere.


On the positive side,
Genius is one thing,
but super genius is
something that exists
between two people.

Mike

halfmask
Firstly what is the criteria that defines a super genius vs a normal genius?

Just some things to note.

1. Newton wasn't the only guy to invent calculus, a Russian mathematician also did so about about the same time. Sorry I cant recall his name at the moment.

2. Newton was actually wrong about several things, mainly his explanation of how light worked.

3. Newton was also into occultism and other random things.

4. A few candidates I would nominated for super genius would be Feynman and the Asian fellow who graded university at the age of 8 with an IQ of 210. I forget his name... I am bad with names.

5. Einstein admitted that at his level he wasn't the best at math, he attributed some of the math required for his solutions to the appropriate mathematicians, Einstein did not do all his work on his own.

6. Einstein and Feynman both mastered differential calculus at an early age and exhibited understanding over it that was considered beyond normal by their piers.

7. I would also consider nominating Schwarzschild a super genius as he is one of the first to come up with a solution to Einstein's filed equations that Einstein himself couldn't do. He did this while he was serving in the army... in WW2.

8. I would consider Tesla a super genius, some of his inventions and theories were leagues ahead of his time and some we can't even understand to this day. I am in electrical engineering and I appreciate Tesla's accomplish more then most because I see first how how far ahead of his time his work actually was. Much of it is still the fundamental of what we electrical engineers use today.

edit on 7-10-2013 by halfmask because: (no reason given)

Great contributions HalfMask,
thank you very much.



This is for you.



Sometimes the ancient laments of science,
and the tonnage of genius lost, is saddening.

How much more would we know about Tesla
if he was not alone.

Mike

mikegrouchy

signalfire
There's plenty more geniuses who, because they were born female, were denied an education, research materials, or laboratories.

HuMans (heh) have wasted more than half of their potential by this slight alone.

And we've all seen what the arrogance and violence of testosterone does to the planet.

Exactly!


And I am calling for Super Genius.
Through collaboration. The entire field of chemistry
was invented by it, and all of modern physics.

The team of lovers both of each other and the subject!


I challenge the characterization of testosterone though,
as it denies it's place in the relationship, and does little
more than vilify half the population while simultaneously
stifling science.

How much genius has died alone and unloved?
Why perpetuate the myth that says we must hate men.

Mike

I'm not vilifying men; I'm complaining that their seeming lack of ability to channel their testosterone into forces for good and not war has been a bit of a problem, historically speaking.

When's the last time you saw women glorifying war? Invading another country? Producing WMDs or considering using them on whole masses of people? Justifying producing weapons for profit? Even one of the people I most admire, Oppenheimer, seemed surprised that his elegant invention ended up being used to kill hundreds of thousands of people, even though that was explicit from the git-go.

Why is it that peaceful men are often ridiculed, and warlike men are honored?

March of the Fire Ants
I do not agree that radical feminism or it's revisionist tendencies are part of a liberal agenda of TPTB. I believe that feminism in it's infancy was an absolutely nessecary struggle. Modern feminism, aspects of which I find deeply distasteful, seems to have carried on beyond any legitimate reasoning, gender equality is the modern struggle both sexes should unite on, in the various areas of society where equality does not exist (on either side).

This gender biased revisionism seems to me to be a semi logical continuation of a movement which has achieved it's main aims. Lamentable as it is, feminin gender blindness in this context is understandable, forgivable and with some level headed debate from moderates on each side should be fixable. There are other more worrying aspects of modern feminism which I would be more interesting in critisizing thoroughly, don't think this is the thread for that though?

I agree with what you said about small science teams potentially being more effective than large corporations, and that this could be an idea TPtb want to keep on the down low.

No, power dynamics is not part of the scientific method, nor is feminist revisionism. Both of these however, are subjects which could be and have been studied using the scientific method. I'm getting the feeling you don't give phsychology that much credit as a science, I find that quite baffling but there you go.

In transactional analysis the relationships
are examined as parent, adult, and child.

For instance two people can play together,
no mater the age, as children or like children.
Sometimes our children parent us. But
mostly it is used to examine problems that
arise when two people who consider them
selves equals are frustrated when the other
takes authoritarian tones like a parent, or
flakes out like a child.

When will psychology give us a book on
how healthy collaborative lovers do great
things together?


The quote above is of the best posts in this thread, so far.
Thank you.



For you.

Mike

Has anyone mentioned this guy yet?

Galileo

Read the various biographies about Tesla that are out there. He stated a few times, and his laboratory aides swore, that he was in contact with aliens and that some of his ideas came from 'out there'.

He had the ability to build a mechanical device in his head and 'run it' for days to detect any flaw in the design before it was actually built in reality.

I found some similarities between Tesla and David Adair, who also said that he dreamed the equations he needed to build his rockets in sequence, as he needed them.

For anyone who has yet to hear about David Adair, there's several Youtube video interview out there with him. He's not only fascinating, he's hilarious. Too bad we don't have the same from Tesla and DaVinci...