Is Health Canada bringing measles back by approving ineffective homeopathic remedies?

reply to post by Unity_99


Keep telling yourself that. To bad you couldn't provide any evidence for your claims.

If you believe standard of living got rid of smallpox you are a very misinformed special person.

Logic, reason, evidence are what's needed to address the issue.

seeker1963
reply to post by ItCameFromOuterSpace

 

What IS real medicine???

It seems to me that all Big Pharm is interested in doing is treating symptoms!!! What ever happened to the days when "REAL MEDICINE", was about finding a cure???

It is very easy to see why. Finding a cure is not near as profitable as just treating the symptoms!

Also to stay on topic, what about how our environment is being poisoned in relation to the comeback of some of these old illnesses?

Real medicine is medicine that works, and to establish that medicine works you need research and peer review (not "gurus" and "natural health specialists"). If the medicine isn't effective, then it isn't medicine.

Vaccines are medicine, they work and have worked for a great deal of time. They do better than cure, they prevent disease.

The thing in our environment which is being poisoned (and precipitating these outbreaks) is minds. Too many hubristic anti-vaccers, too many unscrupulous snake oil salesmen, too little critical thinking.

Unity_99

ItCameFromOuterSpace
reply to post by Grimpachi

 

People need to take real medicine and get their shots. That's all there is to it.

NO THEY DO NOT! We never get shots, and the only real medicine I approve of are antibiotics and anti inflammatories. Nature provides alot of major medicines to us. What we need is our right to access the land and resources of this planet.

Go dictate to your own belly button, mines free.

edit on 11-10-2013 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)

I see you're a fellow Canadian. Do you live in Toronto perchance? Perhaps you'll be the lucky anti-vaccer that gets my two month old niece sick with a foetid illness because you've become infested with disease causing pathogens.

If you get measles or polio, which antibiotic do you plan on taking?

reply to post by Tetrarch42


The western medical community REPEATEDLY tries to discredit alternative medicine and publishes nonsense about it all, so any alleged "research" they do, is purposely skewed so they don't lose MONEY to alternative therapies.
A prime example is the banning of certain Chinese herbs in the USA.

The herbs were misused by NON HERBALISTS, and people died.
So the fda banned it.
Less than 200 people were injured by the improper use of ephedra, and yet the fda banned it.
There are medications that injure thousands, and are proven dangerous, but somehow they all remain on the market.
So forgive us if we couldn't care less about western alleged "research".
As none of it is valid. They make it up as they go along, to insure they keep making money at the expense of the public. '
If a western medication was misused by a non doctor, and people died, NO WAY would the fda ban it's use.

Vaccine injuries are also are a prime example of the industries lying about side affects , and the proof of it was covered up and hidden for decades.

PtolemyII
reply to post by Tetrarch42

 

The western medical community REPEATEDLY tries to discredit alternative medicine and publishes nonsense about it all, so any alleged "research" they do, is purposely skewed so they don't lose MONEY to alternative therapies.
A prime example is the banning of certain Chinese herbs in the USA.

The herbs were misused by NON HERBALISTS, and people died.
So the fda banned it.
Less than 200 people were injured by the improper use of ephedra, and yet the fda banned it.
There are medications that injure thousands, and are proven dangerous, but somehow they all remain on the market.
So forgive us if we couldn't care less about western alleged "research".
As none of it is valid. They make it up as they go along, to insure they keep making money at the expense of the public. '
If a western medication was misused by a non doctor, and people died, NO WAY would the fda ban it's use.

Vaccine injuries are also are a prime example of the industries lying about side affects , and the proof of it was covered up and hidden for decades.

edit on 10/27/13 by PtolemyII because: (no reason given)

By "western medicine" do you mean science and evidence-based medicine as opposed to witchcraft methods?
You know the ones which have been proven not to work or have not been proven to work and will never be proven to work?
Personally I think alternative medicine is a misnomer.
Medicine is medicine whichever way you look at it and generally when people put "alternative" in front of it, it means it doesn't work.
It would be good if you could actually back up your statements about herbs and stuff working instead of promoting it by knocking methods that actually do work and which can be proven whether you believe the research or not. In fact, the methodology is such that YOU can go and test it should you wish. That's the beauty of science, anyone can do it.
The problem with alternative "medicine" is that it's all smoke & mirrors. It's conveniently non-testable and only "backed-up" by fabricated testimonies.
Before you start denigrating things you obviously don't comprehend, take a look at your charlatan-ridden "profession" first.

As for ephedra, what a ridiculous statement to make.
How many people do you think would have been harmed by it if it hadn't have been banned?
People need to be made safe from themselves sometimes and this was a classic case.

reply to post by Grimpachi


so you must have some proof that the smallpox vaccine got rid of smallpox.

ZeussusZ
reply to post by Grimpachi

 

so you must have some proof that the smallpox vaccine got rid of smallpox.

edit on 27-10-2013 by ZeussusZ because: (no reason given)

There's plenty of real evidential proof around so I'm sure he's able to reference to some if he wishes.
Obviously discounting the nonsensical conspiracies out there.

reply to post by Pardon?


I googled real evidential proof smallpox vaccine works and didn't find come up with anything. Maybe you got a link?

ZeussusZ
reply to post by Pardon?

 

I googled real evidential proof smallpox vaccine works and didn't find come up with anything. Maybe you got a link?

You probably did but it didn't fit in with your mindset on it (or what you've read on the likes of whale.to...) so you dismissed it.
Here, try these for starters;

whqlibdoc.who.int...
www.who.int...
www.nature.com...
www.bt.cdc.gov...
whqlibdoc.who.int...

reply to post by ItCameFromOuterSpace

I agree with you that people who WANT their 'shots' should have them. My problem is with these same people who want them insisting on everyone else having them.

I would argue or anyone who wanted vaccines to have them. Why can't these same people do the same for people who do NOT want them.

Herd immunity is a 'theory'. In the end we are all individuals. I don't want to be treated with what works or someone thinks works for them. I want what suits me and expect the same respect back.

But vaccine zealots are like most fanatical believers and quite intolerant to the rights of others to choose and be in charge of their own lives and bodies.

I don't appreciate any zealot choosing for me and mine.

Elliot
reply to post by ItCameFromOuterSpace

 

I agree with you that people who WANT their 'shots' should have them. My problem is with these same people who want them insisting on everyone else having them.

I would argue or anyone who wanted vaccines to have them. Why can't these same people do the same for people who do NOT want them.

Herd immunity is a 'theory'. In the end we are all individuals. I don't want to be treated with what works or someone thinks works for them. I want what suits me and expect the same respect back.

But vaccine zealots are like most fanatical believers and quite intolerant to the rights of others to choose and be in charge of their own lives and bodies.

I don't appreciate any zealot choosing for me and mine.

Herd immunity is a little bit more than a theory.
And it would work even better if more people were vaccinated.
Here's a nice "little" study proving the benefits of it.
jama.jamanetwork.com...
If you can't be bothered reading it all here's a relevant snippet.

"The substantial indirect benefit found in this setting validates observational studies and modeling studies, offering rigorous scientific proof about the ability of inactivated vaccine to induce herd immunity. The reduction in cases of influenza appeared to be primarily due to the prevention of outbreaks, with about half as many observed in colonies receiving the influenza vaccine colonies as those receiving the hepatitis A vaccine. The efficacy of the intervention in preventing influenza in the relatively young adult population of this study is comparable with estimates of inactivated vaccine efficacy.30 Although there were relatively few elderly individuals in this population, the protective effect is likely comparable with or greater than what can be achieved by direct immunization.31 Importantly, the vaccine was generally well tolerated, and there were no serious adverse events in the young children immunized."

I'm all for people being able to choose what they do, it's a basic right.
However I'm also for people choosing because they are properly informed and not swayed by a belief system or hysterical nonsense.
The vaccine "zealots" do not use a belief system as you say, rather they use proper verifiable evidence to reach their conclusions.

One last thing, it's all very well that you should take charge of your body but if by doing that you pose a risk to mine or my relative's I have every right to challenge you on that.

reply to post by Pardon?


There has never been a long term, ie 20 or 30 + years study on vaccines and their benefit has never been proven in medical science in the LONG TERM.

I strongly, even very strongly, believe that people who want vaccines should have them.

Personally, I would choose not to. I only expect the same respect that i genuinely give to those who want vaccination for themselves and their loved ones.

I cannot see evidence of people's health in the VERY LONG TERM improving due to any generalised medical intervention.

What improves health is better diet, good living condition, cleanliness etc. Those things cannot be matched with an 'injection' of anything........

Erm this is a very big example of herd Immunity.


SMALL POX


Near everyone got vaccinated, there was no host left to infect so the virus died out.

Thats why we dont have the vaccination anymore.


Simplified explination but see any there are so many morons on ATS the more simple the better.

Elliot
reply to post by Pardon?

 

There has never been a long term, ie 20 or 30 + years study on vaccines and their benefit has never been proven in medical science in the LONG TERM.

I strongly, even very strongly, believe that people who want vaccines should have them.

Personally, I would choose not to. I only expect the same respect that i genuinely give to those who want vaccination for themselves and their loved ones.

I cannot see evidence of people's health in the VERY LONG TERM improving due to any generalised medical intervention.

What improves health is better diet, good living condition, cleanliness etc. Those things cannot be matched with an 'injection' of anything........

When was the first smallpox vaccine?
When was the first polio vaccine?
When was the first MMR vaccine (plus others)?

All of the above have been given for over 30 years and continually studied since the first one.
Exactly what type of study or information do you wish to have?
You seem to just be regurgitating the same old nonsense found on every anti-vax site.

Have a quick look in the world's population over the last century or so.
See how it's grown (even in areas of poor hygiene and sanitation). I wonder what that's down to?
How long term do you want?

Tell me how a better diet prevents smallpox.
Tell me how better cleanliness prevents encephalitis from measles (or just measles for that matter).
Tell me how better living conditions prevents pertussis.
Oh sorry, you can't can you? That's why we need intervention or would you rather us go back to taking our chances with disease?

Same old, same old.
I should really start working on a vaccine to cure ignorance.
I would TRULY make a fortune....

Double post.
Apologies.

reply to post by Pardon?


By western I mean 200 year old conventional medicine where they dissected bodies for years to figure out how it worked. Chinese medicine is now witchcraft...
Really, why, because shamen used herbs successfully for centuries and we're then called heathen witches by the men who came to their land and killed them for not converting to Christianity.
Oh yeah, so much more civilized.
Chinese medicine is 5000 years old, and is used in numerous western medical facilities including Sloan Kettering Cancer center in NYC, which is the model by which everyone else doing it models itself. You know, the premiere cancer center in the world, where their entire program is integrative.

They also do extensive research on herbs there.
Chinese medicine never KILLS anyone, which is very hard to say about western medicine, now isn't it.
Shall we list all the fda approved drugs and how many deaths are atrributed to each.
Shall we list all the hospital and MD mistakes where people have died or had an improper surgery.
As they are in the hundreds of thousands of actual deaths.
Which they try to down play, but anyone not dumbed down by shills seem to be able to grasp the numbers.
And then we can list how many people have died from Acupuncture or Chinese herbs in the last ten years.
In the USA too, as the only deaths I know of, are in Europe, and it was like.. Three... And there was no direct causal connection made to the herb and the injury.
Lots of luck on that one.

reply to post by crazyewok


The vaccines made before the eighties weren't made to kill and maim.
They were made to cure people. No one gets cured of anything anymore.

So the old ones, worked. As big pharm didn't own Washington then , and all sub genres of medicine are now multi billion dollar industries.
Keep the patient sick, make more money til they die.
Cure them, no money.

The vaccines being made now are just like all pharmaceuticals.
Made to make money on the masses. Not actually cure anyone.
This is why tried and true meds that worked well for years, are discontinued.
Because the patent has run out. No one makes money on drugs with no patent.
Or don't you know that.
Drugs that were life savers for decades have been replaced by crap that doesn't do the job and has three times as many side affects, for which everyone taking them needs two more drugs to counter act. Triple the money. Owww Ahh.
This is why everyone who gets the flu vaccine now, GETS the flu now,which the companies making them go on and on about how this year's vaccination covered all the possible germs out there.
Hard to tell since they don't seem to work at all.

Excuse me while I LOL long and loud .

reply to post by Pardon?


And if you knew anything at ALL about ephedra, you would know herbalists have used it with no ill affects, for asthma.
We used it legally for years, until idiots making a buck off people's desperation misused it.
Wait til MDs start prescribing herbs. They can barely prescribe medications.
They will kill hundreds and blame the herbs. But that's for the best, because onlyherbalists sshould be dispensing herbs.
When used properly, and not put into diet pills by some idiot company with no licensed herbalist , it has helped a lot of people.
You do know a Chinese herbal program is three years, and you must have a bachelor's degree and license in Acupuncture first, which is another three years post grad, to even take an herbal program.
You do know all people practicing Chinese medicine have as much education as an MD.
You knew this, right.
Tell me more about what you know about legal Chinese medicine in the USA, as so far, it doesn't seem to be much.
Chinese herbalists know herbs are as dangerous as medications if used improperly.
It's why we are careful, and don't kill people when we prescribe them.
Unlike all MDs.

But I keep forgetting, you know so much about herbs... you just forgot that part.
I've prescribed to many people, including myself. Guess what, the wheezing stops and asthma attacks become fewer and fewer, and you don't need to be on an inhaler and steroid for weeks .
But you KNEW that. I can tell

PtolemyII
reply to post by Pardon?

 

By western I mean 200 year old conventional medicine where they dissected bodies for years to figure out how it worked. Chinese medicine is now witchcraft...
Really, why, because shamen used herbs successfully for centuries and we're then called heathen witches by the men who came to their land and killed them for not converting to Christianity.
Oh yeah, so much more civilized.
Chinese medicine is 5000 years old, and is used in numerous western medical facilities including Sloan Kettering Cancer center in NYC, which is the model by which everyone else doing it models itself. You know, the premiere cancer center in the world, where their entire program is integrative.

They also do extensive research on herbs there.
Chinese medicine never KILLS anyone, which is very hard to say about western medicine, now isn't it.
Shall we list all the fda approved drugs and how many deaths are atrributed to each.
Shall we list all the hospital and MD mistakes where people have died or had an improper surgery.
As they are in the hundreds of thousands of actual deaths.
Which they try to down play, but anyone not dumbed down by shills seem to be able to grasp the numbers.
And then we can list how many people have died from Acupuncture or Chinese herbs in the last ten years.
In the USA too, as the only deaths I know of, are in Europe, and it was like.. Three... And there was no direct causal connection made to the herb and the injury.
Lots of luck on that one.

Wow.
I really don't know where to start with your post.

I've never got this thing which says eastern medicine is better than western medicine.
Never at all.
I always go with evidence based, you know where you can show how something works and if it works.
If it works it really doesn't matter where in the world it comes from.
The same with herbal medicine.
If it works and can be proven it's medicine, if it doesn't it's not.
What part of that do you disagree with?
Is the fact it's 5000 years old supposed to impress me or something?
Personally I'd prefer something a little more modern and proven.

I've actually been to a couple of hospitals in China, ShangHai to be precise.
I was surprised they were using things like ultrasound machines, MRI scanners and radio-frequency ablation techniques on their patients. Who'd have thought it eh, Chinese using "western" medicine...

And you really believe that Chinese medicine has NEVER killed anyone? Really?
And your proof of this is based upon what evidence.

Oh, vaccines do not cure anyone of anything.
They never have and never will.
They prevent disease.
I would LOL at your ignorance but I feel pity more than scorn for you (well, at the moment anyway).



I just thought I'd add that the last verified indigenous case of polio in China was recorded in 1994.
That was after a very successful vaccination campaign starting in the early 1960's.
Pre polio vaccinations disability and/or death from polio was extremely commonplace, in fact it was endemic in most of China.
Strangely, the herbal doctors didn't have a cure for it....

seeker1963
reply to post by ItCameFromOuterSpace

 

What IS real medicine???

It seems to me that all Big Pharm is interested in doing is treating symptoms!!! What ever happened to the days when "REAL MEDICINE", was about finding a cure???

It is very easy to see why. Finding a cure is not near as profitable as just treating the symptoms!

Also to stay on topic, what about how our environment is being poisoned in relation to the comeback of some of these old illnesses?

Vaccinations can be better than a cure by preventing the disease in the first place. Yay science!