“You are not your body”—and other contradictions.

reply to post by NiNjABackflip

I said I had an OBE. It didn't shake me to my core because I perhaps understand what the body is capable of, that it can provide such imagery when asleep or when hallucinating.

An hallucination is imagery, visual phenomena and an OBE is more than a visual/audio phenomena and the exact opposite of sleep. Even the most extreme hallucination, is vastly different than an OBE. But you don't seem to know the difference, that's why I said you probably had an hallucination.

I am completely aware of the similarities between dreams and OBEs. Could it be that both are one in the same?

Its the differences that matter here, not the similarities. For instance, you would know the difference between watching a video of the Grand Canyon and actually being there. There is no question as to the differences between the two.

..which is exactly the way dreams work. We imagine we are somewhere else, seeing things, hearing things, while we lay asleep.

Yes they share similarities with the FIRST five senses. BUT the difference between a dream and an OBE, is similar to the difference between a dream and being awake. You can answer it yourself by answering these questions: (I really would like to hear your answers, because those are probably the same answers I'm trying to relay to you)

Are you awake?
How do you know you're awake?
And what's the difference between dreaming and being awake?

The awakened state and the sleep state both have 5 sensory input. So you can't say "I know I'm awake because I can look around, smell and touch things" because you can do that in the dream as well. So, what is the unique quality about being awake that tells you you're awake? The answer to that question is what I'm trying to communicate about OBE's.

Or it could be just a dream, and the body is the instrument that is dreaming and providing OBEs. It could be argued that both are valid points, except that one is more likely.

To dream, you have to be asleep. An OBE is being more awake than even the awakened state. An OBE makes the normal in-the-body wakened state look like sleep. It is a higher reality and the opposite of sleep. In fact, its the opposite of the Maya we call the physical reality. It was earth shattering to me, and virtually everyone else who's told of the experience. Yet it's business as usual with your experience. Confusing an OBE with an hallucination is like confusing your sleeping dreams to your wakened reality.

If we are to continue comparing OBEs to dreams, what's stopping us from taking the next step and saying that OBEs are in fact dreams? I wish to know what is different between a dream and an OBE? So far I can see no difference.

Huh? If you experienced no differences between the two, how can you say you had one or the other? That's because you never had one.
The difference between an OBE and a dream, is the same difference between a dream and the state you're in now. It would save me a lot of typing if you would just pause for a moment and think about the difference.

[I] explained it is exactly like a dream or hallucination. Susan Blackmore may be more of an authority than I. She is a new age parapsychologist who has studied OBEs for quite some time. Here's her article on the subject if you wish to take a look.

She is NO authority. A researcher is no authority on the subject matter. They re - search and report their findings, that's all. That article is written by a person who has never experienced an OBE. The only thing she can analyze are the 5 sense similarities between the accounts of an OBE and a dream. In other words, the visual, auditory, smell and touch qualities.
Well why not apply her article to waking life? There is virtually NO 5 senses difference between a dream and a waking state. They are both visual, audio, etc.. But on the same coin, there is PLENTY difference between a dream and a waking state isn't there? That difference, or quality, is being completely ignored in this limited scope study. Probably because she, also, is stuck in the mind/body perception and has never experienced an OBE.

reply to post by Visitor2012

An hallucination is imagery, visual phenomena and an OBE is more than a visual/audio phenomena and the exact opposite of sleep. Even the most extreme hallucination, is vastly different than an OBE. But you don't seem to know the difference, that's why I said you probably had an hallucination.

I asked how they were different, not how they were the same. How is it more than hallucination or sleep? It seems we both can't tell the difference.

Its the differences that matter here, not the similarities. For instance, you would know the difference between watching a video of the Grand Canyon and actually being there. There is no question as to the differences between the two.

Yes one is real and one isn't. I don't think anyone can explain how floating out of the body has any reality. However, it is something that happens to occur in dreams and hallucinations.

Yes they share similarities with the FIRST five senses. BUT the difference between a dream and an OBE, is similar to the difference between a dream and being awake. You can answer it yourself by answering these questions: (I really would like to hear your answers, because those are probably the same answers I'm trying to relay to you)

Are you awake?
How do you know you're awake?
And what's the difference between dreaming and being awake?

The awakened state and the sleep state both have 5 sensory input. So you can't say "I know I'm awake because I can look around, smell and touch things" because you can do that in the dream as well. So, what is the unique quality about being awake that tells you you're awake? The answer to that question is what I'm trying to communicate about OBE's.

I do love thinking about sleep and dreaming.

Am I awake? Yes I am awake.

How do I know I'm awake? The laws of nature are always the same when I'm awake. I can remember when I'm awake. I remember going to sleep, and remember waking. I know my body hasn't moved from where it fell asleep. The only place I travelled was in my mind, assuming I even remember what occurred.

Vague representations of things experienced in waking life appear in my dreams, but I'm not sure why or even if they are different. I can hear a sound from outside my sleep, maybe a siren from down the street, and it will appear in my dream but different in a way. On remembering this when I'm awake, I realize it was just a dream.

And what's the difference between dreaming and being awake? I am dreaming when I'm asleep. I'm not dreaming when I'm awake.

The dream state disobeys the laws of nature. I can fly in one dream, and hardly be able to move in the next, then I wake up. When I'm awake, the physics feel the same as the last time I was awake. In one dream I look different than I would in the next, and then I wake. When I'm awake, I look the same as the last time I was awake. Sometimes, I forget what happens in my dreams. I always remember what happens when I'm awake.

I do understand what you're saying, however, that when I'm in my dream, if I'm not lucid, I will not understand that I'm dreaming. I will not be able to comprehend that the laws of physics in the dream are not the same as in reality; but just like the heart keeps pumping, or the lungs keep breathing, or the endocrine system and the digestive system keep working, the body continues to imagine.

I believe that the body imagines or dreams when people think they are having an OBE, which is usually a result of something that has happened to the body ie. drugs, near-death injuries, etc. OBE's usually sound like a response to a physical contortion of the body (narcotics, injury etc, exhaustion); so why do we not assume that OBEs are a bodily response, rather than the wild claim that our spirits seeping through our pores?

This is why I have such trouble with it. It just seems so simple, but no one likes the simple explanation. We are our bodies. And please excuse my skepticism towards OBEs, I'm not trying to offend anyone, but find rationalize some answers.

reply to post by WhiteHat

But then again, there is a body and there is an awareness of body; two different things. Yes they are connected, but not the same. The body is changing; you look in the mirror at the age of five, then ten, then twenty, and see a different body. Yet "you" are the same you. The awareness never feels older, or different.
A body is just a sum of parts; you know the body but the body doesn't know you.
Everything that you can observe is different than you; everything an eye can see is different than the eye.
Again, can an eye see itself? can a knife cut itself? Can a self see itself?
You cannot observe yourself, you can only BE yourself; so if you can observe your body, your feelings, your memories and so on, you are different than them.

Awareness gets drunk when the body drinks. Awareness cannot see when the eyes are done. Awareness cannot hear when the hearing fails. Awareness is all but gone when the body is comatose. Where does awareness come from? The body. In every case, it is a prerequisite to be a body, in order to be aware.

Just like the heart cannot smell, or the eye cannot hear, the mind cannot see. The mind can only think that it sees, it only thinks that it hears, it only thinks it can smell, because the mind only thinks. The body, of course, does all of those things. The body is awareness, because the body is aware. Everything that is aware, just so happens to be a body. When the body sleeps, it isn't aware.

It's simple; no non-substances needed.

Interesting thread. What exactly is the argument being presented here? The OP thinks it's a shame that some people believe our true being, that which pertains to conscious experience, is not a physical entity? I'll ask what's so special about matter? Are you afraid of the possibility that everything you thought you knew is a lie?

I've believed for some time now, and came about this conclusion without direct external influence, that it's completely possible this life I've lived is an illusion presented to whatever I am. Why present an illusion to whatever consciousness may be? I don't know. Who could even presume to say they have any answers about reality that mean a damn.

This subjective experience is brimming with paradoxical climaxes. I've been skirting around the boundaries of eastern ideologies and shamanistic ritual hard-lined with quantum physics as an effort to examine the shining qualities of each belief and piece together a definition of my existence. All I've been able to come up with is an unconfirmable mish-mash hypothesis about the relation of neurotransmitters in complex organic biology inducing the experience of conscious reality. I don't follow any belief adamantly, although some more than others, given the evidence presented in their favor.

I'm open to the idea of a cyclical infinity correlating with our perception of reality through the quantum sub-atomic realm. There are too many possibilities, an incomprehensible amount.

I've had abnormal conscious experiences just like some of you as well. I've had roughly 5 out of body experiences and on more than a dozen occasions felt what I can only describe as the feeling of dying (I'd simply call them NDE's other than the fact that I was no where near physical death). I've also had a synchronicity before, which is when the dream state blends perfectly into the waking state and you have no recollection of ever having woken up from your dream. The synchronicity was by far the most jarring experience I've ever witnessed. The thoughts and feelings associated with my dreams can be as (or more) powerful than waking hallucinogenic ecstasy.

I think a large part of the experience of reality has to do with the presence of particular neurochemical structures in the biological system. Think of how much of our reality is composed of nothing but vibrating energy, all of it. Why even bother existing in the first place? Somebody help me find out what this all means, seriously.

reply to post by Dystopiaphiliac


Thinking back I forgot to mention that I have a heavy belief in the idea that this life is the chance for us to familiarize ourselves with the after-death state so that the act of dying does not create confusion, because just like a botched birthing process, imagine if you could botch your transition into the state of death. Perhaps the act of dying is just like the act of birthing? It would be like leaving behind this reality and being born into a new one, but if you weren't prepared to die, if you miss the sensations of life too much you fight to return and are "reincarnated" into a new body, to repeat this life and death cycle again until you're prepared for the unknown after this reality.

reply to post by Visitor2012


cont.

To dream, you have to be asleep. An OBE is being more awake than even the awakened state. An OBE makes the normal in-the-body wakened state look like sleep. It is a higher reality and the opposite of sleep. In fact, its the opposite of the Maya we call the physical reality. It was earth shattering to me, and virtually everyone else who's told of the experience. Yet it's business as usual with your experience. Confusing an OBE with an hallucination is like confusing your sleeping dreams to your wakened reality.

Some dreams and hallucinations are more vivid than others.

Huh? If you experienced no differences between the two, how can you say you had one or the other? That's because you never had one.
The difference between an OBE and a dream, is the same difference between a dream and the state you're in now. It would save me a lot of typing if you would just pause for a moment and think about the difference.

What I'm saying is, all you've been able to compare OBE's are is to dreams. Why not accept the possibility that they are in fact dreams?

She is NO authority. A researcher is no authority on the subject matter. They re - search and report their findings, that's all. That article is written by a person who has never experienced an OBE. The only thing she can analyze are the 5 sense similarities between the accounts of an OBE and a dream. In other words, the visual, auditory, smell and touch qualities.
Well why not apply her article to waking life? There is virtually NO 5 senses difference between a dream and a waking state. They are both visual, audio, etc.. But on the same coin, there is PLENTY difference between a dream and a waking state isn't there? That difference, or quality, is being completely ignored in this limited scope study. Probably because she, also, is stuck in the mind/body perception and has never experienced an OBE.

She has had an OBE. I don't know how you've reached the conclusion that she hasn't had an OBE. If all you can do is jump to these kinds of conclusions, then I would imagine you did the same with your OBE.

reply to post by Dystopiaphiliac

Interesting thread. What exactly is the argument being presented here? The OP thinks it's a shame that some people believe our true being, that which pertains to conscious experience, is not a physical entity? I'll ask what's so special about matter? Are you afraid of the possibility that everything you thought you knew is a lie?

The argument is that we are indeed our bodies. We are already our true nature.

Although matter is a concept that isn't complete, the things I can feel, see and taste and observe are more important than those that I cannot.

What do you find so special about the immaterial? How are you able to forget about that which you can see and feel, and then start to believe in that which you cannot?

Are you afraid of the possibility that everything you thought you knew was real?

NiNjABackflip
As a thought experiment, I imagine reverse engineering my body, taking it apart piece by piece until I find out what’s left of myself at the end. I imagine removing my eyes, and with it, everything I’ve ever seen. I remove my ears and every sound I’ve been privy to becomes silent.

NiNjABackflip
we have out of body experiences every time we dream, as we imagine ourselves somewhere other than where our body lies in sleep. Could it be that out-of-body experiences are just dreams? Such an answer would be too simple, however rational it may sound.

Isn't it interesting that you don't need your eyes to see a gigantic pink elephant? You just did, in your mind. Gigantic pink elephants do not exist in reality (as far as we are aware) and yet, it is possible to still see one, not with the physical eyes, but with the spiritual eye.

It is not proven that the brain makes consciousness. It is only proven that the brain shows activity of consciousness.

A scientist can look at a tv, they can see that a show is on the tv screen and they can also see that when the tv breaks the show stops, but that is not proof that the tv creates the tv show, that's only proof that the tv show can no longer be seen in that broken tv.

NiNjABackflip
reply to post by NoRulesAllowed

 

But it is simply FACT that realities can be experienced WITHOUT those senses. And yes I say FACT.

And what realities would that be?

Of course he is "a corpse" because the physical body cannot last forever. It is born and has a certain lifespan. While alive, we can perceive pleasure (with this body) but can also receive pain etc..the advantages/drawbacks of physicality. Once you realize that physicality is only ONE aspect of a greater reality, of a greater "self" (a theory which I myself see as plausible with lots of evidence)...then it's clear we're more than our body.

Maybe you could explain how it is clear we are more than our body.

edit on 29-9-2013 by NiNjABackflip because: (no reason given)

I look at it as my body being a material vessel that houses my soul, spirit, or whatever you like to call your eternal "you".

reply to post by NiNjABackflip

I asked how they were different, not how they were the same. How is it more than hallucination or sleep? It seems we both can't tell the difference.

I just told you the difference, about three times. It's really simple. The answer to your question is the same as the answer to the question I presented to you. Which you sort of answered below...(continue)

Yes one is real and one isn't. I don't think anyone can explain how floating out of the body has any reality. However, it is something that happens to occur in dreams and hallucinations.

Hallucinations and OBE's share VERY little in common. The term OBE wasn't created by someone who had a uniquely vivid hallucination and decided to create a new word for it.

You admit you don't know the difference, so how the heck can you say you had an OBE? Why do you call yours an OBE, when the experience is, apparently, no different than your hallucinations? You can't say it's because you saw your body from the outside, that's 1% of the experience. Which is something I'm trying to make you understand. I'm failing in that attempt.

How do I know I'm awake? The laws of nature are always the same when I'm awake.

Rubbish. Just because it appears consistent to you, for the moment, doesn't mean anything. One minute you're laying in bed, and the next you're on a flying washing machine. Yet, you never seem to notice the transition between the different so-called 'laws of nature'. So you can't use that as a litmus test. Observation of those so-called "laws" is of no use to you in making that determination. The same awareness which is deceived by the dream EVERY night, can not then be used to make that determination. Obviously.

I can remember when I'm awake.

Did you mean to say, 'I can remember when I wake up'? Otherwise, for you to make that statement, you would have to believe that a person would need memory to know they're awake. Which is preposterous. You can know you're awake, but how can you remember you're awake? That's a paradox.

I remember going to sleep,

So in other words, you're saying that you remember the point when your body and mind went into sleep and into a dream, all the while remaining consciously aware enough to observe the transition? That's Lucid dreaming.

On the other hand, maybe you're referring to the last thing you remembered before you lost consciousness. If that's the case, you were not consciously aware and observing the transition between the wake state and the sleep state. You can't have a memory of something that happened after you were unconscious, nor is it possible to remember becoming unconscious. That, too would lead to a paradox.

The only place I travelled was in my mind, assuming I even remember what occurred.

An OBE is a Beyond-the-five- senses perception experience, a dream or a hallucination is not.
The same can be said when comparing waking life, to a dream. That even though we experience both through 5 senses perception, there is something more REAL about being awake. That's because reality is beyond mere 5 senses. Mind projections are not.

Vague representations of things experienced in waking life appear in my dreams, [.......]. I can hear a sound from outside my sleep, maybe a siren from [........] On remembering this when I'm awake, I realize it was just a dream.

In order to dream, you have to first slip into unconsciousness and your body/mind has to go to sleep. OBE is not an unconscious experience, like dreams and hallucinations.

Being aware that your body and thinking-mind is asleep, is a higher level of conscious awareness. You are THIS conscious awareness, the ultimate you and the same one that is observing the nervous system's interpretation of reality. You are not just a soul in a body. It is more. You don't see the difference between your body/mind, and you. So you assume that 5 sense perception and all the phenomena we experience through it, is the ultimate litmus test to reality. Yet that same litmus test fails you every night when you go to sleep and fall into a dream.

And what's the difference between dreaming and being awake? I am dreaming when I'm asleep. I'm not dreaming when I'm awake.

Ok. So you can say dreams are a lower reality to the wakened. Same goes for hallucinations. Using that comparative model, I can say that the physical reality is lower than an OBE state.

The dream state disobeys the laws of nature. I can fly in one dream, and hardly be able to move in the next, then I wake up. When I'm awake, the physics feel the same as the last time I was awake. In one dream I look different than I would in the next, and then I wake. When I'm awake, I look the same as the last time I was awake. Sometimes, I forget what happens in my dreams. I always remember what happens when I'm awake.

And all the while, you never seem to notice this taking place until you access your memory of it, and compare it to your current perceived reality. With an OBE, there is no 'coming out of it and remembering the experience', you're ALREADY awake. In fact, much more awake then your physical reality.

We're not talking about dreams with images and sound while unconscious and snoring in our beds. It's a magnitude much greater than the limited 5 sensory experience of physical life, and most certainly that of dreams and hallucinations.

...however, that when I'm in my dream, if I'm not lucid, I will not understand that I'm dreaming. I will not be able to comprehend that the laws of physics in the dream are not the same as in reality; but just like the heart keeps pumping, or the lungs keep breathing, or the endocrine system and the digestive system keep working, the body continues to imagine.

You raise an EXCELLENT point, and I'm glad we fast forwarded up to this point. This is exactly what I'm trying to communicate to you as well and I'll give it my last dying shot. Which is this. When you are lucid, you are aware of the fact that you are not the character in the dream. Not only that, but you are also aware that the environment you're witnessing and the 'instrument' THROUGH which you observe it, is Just that...an instrument. it's not you. You believe it IS you, because you are intelligent being who has not witnessed otherwise. if you had, you would not be asking questions about it.

Your body is asleep in paralysis, your mind is dreaming and there you are watching it. When you're lucid, your presence, your consciousness, over shadows the presence of the illusory self in the dream and its associated dream mind and the perceptions of that mind.

Likewise, an OBE is an experience of Lucidity beyond the physical plane. For lack of better ways of comparison. The same you, that observes a dream when lucid, is the SAME you, that is not your body. Like I said, experiencing an OBE and saying its not real, is like being lucid in a dream and still believing you're not lucid.

My replies continued below..

reply to post by NiNjABackflip

I believe that the body imagines or dreams when people think they are having an OBE, which is usually a result of something that has happened to the body ie. drugs, near-death injuries, etc. OBE's usually sound like a response to a physical contortion of the body (narcotics, injury etc, exhaustion); so why do we not assume that OBEs are a bodily response, rather than the wild claim that our spirits seeping through our pores?

OBE's can be triggered consciously, without Trauma. A higher reality can not be confused with the lower reality that it encompasses. You can't confuse the 3rd dimension perception with the second. Although the 3rd encompasses the 2nd dimension, it is also beyond its 'laws of 2D nature'.

Comparing an OBE to a hallucination would be like confusing the 3rd dimension with the 2nd. Impossible.

This is why I have such trouble with it. It just seems so simple, but no one likes the simple explanation. We are our bodies. And please excuse my skepticism towards OBEs, I'm not trying to offend anyone, but find rationalize some answers.

You say that "We are our body" because you have never experienced otherwise. You've maybe had hallucinations or dreams, with which you attempt to extract comparisons to the concept you call OBE. But the term OBE is just meaningless words otherwise.

In fact, even reading about it and talking about it is a waste of precious time for you. Because OBE's can be triggered consciously, it's not just an experience for the 'Trauma' people like so many people think it is. It can be achieved with energy work and meditative practices.

So what's stopping you from seeing, for yourself, that the world is indeed not flat? That you are indeed not just your body and it's mind?

If you have experience with triggering lucidity in dreams, you should try the next step. Which is become lucid from the wakened state.

I've truly enjoyed our conversations. I've spent a lot of time on these responses (5 hours yesterday) to try an communicate as best I could. Nevertheless, it has been enjoyable. I don't think it's possible for me to communicate my position any better than I already have. ...I'm exhausted..lol

What I'm saying is, all you've been able to compare OBE's are is to dreams. Why not accept the possibility that they are in fact dreams?

reply to post by NiNjABackflip


As I've said time and time again. The only remote similarities between a dream/hallucination and an OBE is the five senses perception. You missed all I've said about the DIFFERENCES. I dare not repeat, for fear of collapsing from exhaustion.

She has had an OBE. I don't know how you've reached the conclusion that she hasn't had an OBE. If all you can do is jump to these kinds of conclusions, then I would imagine you did the same with your OBE.

Then she probably needs to have a more profound experience....to remove that whatever doubt she has left.

Honestly, I don't think you've understood a single thing I'm saying. You keep drawing parallels between OBE's and hallucinations and dreams. I, while telling you the minute similarities, have also told you the DRASTIC differences. But you continue to ignore that part. What more can I say? Nothing.

NiNjABackflip
reply to post by Dystopiaphiliac

 

Interesting thread. What exactly is the argument being presented here? The OP thinks it's a shame that some people believe our true being, that which pertains to conscious experience, is not a physical entity? I'll ask what's so special about matter? Are you afraid of the possibility that everything you thought you knew is a lie?

The argument is that we are indeed our bodies. We are already our true nature.

Although matter is a concept that isn't complete, the things I can feel, see and taste and observe are more important than those that I cannot.

What do you find so special about the immaterial? How are you able to forget about that which you can see and feel, and then start to believe in that which you cannot?

Are you afraid of the possibility that everything you thought you knew was real?

That's the problem with this entire conversation. If you have NEVER truly experienced a profound OBE, you are virtually locked and trapped in the body/mind perception. Most of us gauge reality using our Sense perceptions as the instrument to observe it. That's like a centipede walking around, feeling only the first five limbs. And those are the only perceptions you speak about.

That's fine, but that doesn't mean you can deny a higher reality that someone else is experiencing. You can't tell me the Earth is flat, if I'm a sailer and your sitting in a rocking chair reading and writing articles about sailing around a flat world.

You are partly right and partly wrong in my opinion. People who say this can mean that there is more to a person than the physical, which is absolutely true; whether you believe it or not does not affect the truth. And the body may be essential for everyday tasks, but the body is by no means what makes a person work. The brain is the most important organ in the body as far "creating" animation in a person, and the brain is not the body.

So what if someone said, I am not my brain? What would you think about that? Plus, there is no way anyone can disprove the idea of life after death, or of the soul. The idea of a soul has been around for millennia, and I believe that such a thing exists. So did many of the most brilliant people to have ever walked the Earth. So if the life one experiences in their body is simply a small part of a much broader life that exists in some other time or dimension, then it is true that a person is not their body.

And if you want to get philosophical, one must ask what exactly is the essence of a person. You are focusing on nothing but the physical, and that is why I said you are only partly correct and partly incorrect.

reply to post by arpgme

Isn't it interesting that you don't need your eyes to see a gigantic pink elephant? You just did, in your mind. Gigantic pink elephants do not exist in reality (as far as we are aware) and yet, it is possible to still see one, not with the physical eyes, but with the spiritual eye.

I didn't see anything. I imagined it. So no, I don't see one, because there isn't one to see. I combine the idea of an elephant with the idea of pink and create a pink elephant. First I need to know what elephants and the color pink looks like. Those I must first see with the eyes.

It is not proven that the brain makes consciousness. It is only proven that the brain shows activity of consciousness.

Consciousness isn't something that is made. It is an action that is performed. A body is needed to perform that action. The only "thing" we can call consciousness is the body, because it is the only thing present that is conscious.

A scientist can look at a tv, they can see that a show is on the tv screen and they can also see that when the tv breaks the show stops, but that is not proof that the tv creates the tv show, that's only proof that the tv show can no longer be seen in that broken tv.

If a television is broken, it will not receive the signal sent to it, just like when the brain is in a coma, it will not receive the signal sent through the senses by reality.

NiNjABackflip
This is why I have such trouble with it. It just seems so simple, but no one likes the simple explanation. We are our bodies. And please excuse my skepticism towards OBEs, I'm not trying to offend anyone, but find rationalize some answers.

It is very clear that you never had an OBE, probably not even a real lucid dream.
If you had had an OBE you would not even have to ask whether it is any different than "a hallucination".

Experiencing an OBE or a LD is equal to experiencing THIS reality, it's actually often perceived as "more real". It feels in no way whatsoever "like a normal dream" or "hallucination"....you are entirely and fully conscious, you can look around, look at yourself (your astral body or whatever you want to call it)...you KNOW that you have the experience now and YOU KNOW about the incredibility of it with the 100% exact same "ego" and consciousness you have right this moment. With the exception you can fly etc...and it feels and *is* entirely real.

arpgme

Isn't it interesting that you don't need your eyes to see a gigantic pink elephant? You just did, in your mind. Gigantic pink elephants do not exist in reality (as far as we are aware) and yet, it is possible to still see one, not with the physical eyes, but with the spiritual eye.

This is still different to OBE or LD, or "real" other altered state of consciousnesses. Because then you INDEED *see* the pink elephant...in the same way as I "see" the monitor here in front of me right this second.

Endless debate whether this "seeing" or this perceiving of a reality is "real" or not is entirely irrelevant. Fact is I would really *see* the pink elephant. I just don't want that you give the OP the impression that a simple imagination of a pink elephant behind closed eyes would be the same thing.

So...and here is the kicker now...if you *really see* the pink elephant, say, during OBE or whatever other state of consciousness....better even...let's just imagine you would be able to communicate with it as well or interact with it in any way...what "relevant* is it then still whether it's actually "not real"? Or better... WHAT makes it less real?

reply to post by NoRulesAllowed

It is very clear that you never had an OBE, probably not even a real lucid dream.
If you had had an OBE you would not even have to ask whether it is any different than "a hallucination".

Experiencing an OBE or a LD is equal to experiencing THIS reality, it's actually often perceived as "more real". It feels in no way whatsoever "like a normal dream" or "hallucination"....you are entirely and fully conscious, you can look around, look at yourself (your astral body or whatever you want to call it)...you KNOW that you have the experience now and YOU KNOW about the incredibility of it with the 100% exact same "ego" and consciousness you have right this moment. With the exception you can fly etc...and it feels and *is* entirely real.

One can look around fully conscious when he hallucinates. I've had full conversations with trees under the influence of things I cannot mention. My father had a massive stroke, and during this stroke, he remembers turning into liquid and melting into his chair. He swears it happened and screamed that he was melting. Of course, we could see he wasn't, but he couldn't tell the difference.

These episodes felt real and are described the way you are describing your OBE.

reply to post by NiNjABackflip


Think of a crayon drawn person that you might like to draw. Then imagine you have drawn this person on a piece of paper with a crayon and he has come to life.

It had the ability to be imaged because you have will/spirit, a body/structure, and a consciousness/mind.

When you created your mental-image(your mind) of a crayon person onto your paper(your body) you used your will(spirit); and you have thereby manifested crayon person's mind, will, and body; and if you willed his mind to have eternal life, you will have created a soul.

Now the crayon person's soul will not be limited to the picture of his body that you drew - it will only be limited to where you allow his mind to be, and what you allow his mind to do.

Father = consciousness/mind/imager
Holy Spirit = will/motion/desire/moving the crayon
Son = body/structure/paper/image

Soul = eternal mind which can have any form

People did not always have a soul that was apart from flesh. Their mind was made as eternally living within flesh as living souls. That is, the soul was always meant to be eternal and attached to the flesh, but the stuff happened in Eden and changed that by corrupting the flesh and causing it to die. The human soul, as it exists now, is not forever bound to human flesh, but it is eternal as long as we are not destroyed/"be no more" in hell.

1 Thessalonians 5:23

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Spirit and soul are not the same thing. Spirit is manifested will. Spirit can have any form too, but it should not be confused with mind/soul.

When you see something that says "spirit of God", it does not mean God's soul - it means his manifested will or desire, and it is doing something God desires/wills.

reply to post by NiNjABackflip

Awareness gets drunk when the body drinks. Awareness cannot see when the eyes are done. Awareness cannot hear when the hearing fails. Awareness is all but gone when the body is comatose. Where does awareness come from? The body. In every case, it is a prerequisite to be a body, in order to be aware.

I would invite you to ponder over this a little more; it's my impression that you take same concepts for granted without thinking them deeper.
"Awareness gets drunk when the body drinks."
Of course not. Let's differentiate between awareness and attention here.
Your awareness is as clear as it can gets since it watches the body getting drunk. You know you are drunk and just the same you know when you are not. Who else is watching your body's behaviour and know the difference if not the awareness? Then, you are aware you are passing out or falling asleep. In the absence of sensory input there is nothing, but the moment you start dreaming or itching or whatever, the awareness is already there. And you realize that even that time out, that nothing it is in your awareness, and it's known as "nothing". Otherwise there would be no gap between the last impression before you passed out and the first one of consciousness.
How can I express this clearly so you get my point? It's frustrating how limited words are.


"Awareness cannot see when the eyes are done". But awareness is not missing when you cannot see. The point is not that awareness is the same as the senses; the point is that all the senses and the impressions coming through the senses, and even the absence of sensory input are being aware of. You know when you are seeing something, and you know when you stop seeing. The eye sees, but doesn't know what it sees, or that it stopped seeing. The eye is impartial and impersonal, just an organ of sense.

You may say that is the mind that knows all these things; yet something is aware of even the mind activity. "I just thought of something', " my mind is not so clear today", "my mind just stopped" and so on.
"I wasn't aware". Who knows that, really?
You must agree at least that we are made of a physical part, the body, and a non-physical part, called the mind, where all the knowledge, the thoughts, the feelings, the imagination and so on are taking place.
Yet all those things, both physical and non-physical are perceived by something, and known as "mine", not me. If all that is "you", why are they perceived as "mine"? My body feels itself like "my body"? Did you ever felt yourself like "mine"? 'I am mine?" You understand the problem here? Everything in this world can be mine, except for the "I". "I" can only be, as in I am, it cannot be "I am mine", and that means "I" is different than all the rest. "I" is the only one that cannot be "my I", so is not the same as the body, who can be "my body".

There is the feeling "I am" first, present since the first moment you exist.
You know you are, nobody needs to teach you that or to prove it to you.
Then it comes the attachment: I am this or that, I am like this or like that, and those things are learned or acquired later. "I am John" is something learned, not inherent. The attachment to "I am" is changing all the time, while the feeling " I am' is always the same. Today I am a teacher and tomorrow I am a janitor. In order to be "something" first you must "be". "I am" in itself is enough, and it feels absolutely true. The rest comes from the mind, this is why is changing all the time.

But my point is that all the rest of what we think we are is "ours". "I am my body" not "I am body". If that doesn't point enough of two different things - me and my body - I don't know how else to explain it. Probably because to find out who you are is in fact an experiential thing, not a theoretical one.
You don't have to necessarily agree with me, but maybe you can give these things some time and thinking, and not dismiss them right away. The information in itself has no value if you cannot experience it or use it for yourself.