Prepare for Aryanisation: Holocaust Denial, Conspiracy Theory, Aliens and the Race Agenda

“For purposes of their own, powerful special interest groups desperately seek to keep substantive discussion of the Holocaust taboo.”

Barbara Kulaszka, Lawyer of Holocaust Denier, Ernst Zundel and Nazi Rocket scientist, Arthur Rudolf.

The lady has a point.

Dr Raul Hilberg, who testified in the Zundel case, and is considered a leading expert of the Holocaust, had to rely on private patronage to get his book, ‘The Destruction of the Jews’, in print. Publishers turned him away considering his both too controversial in it’s honesty describing it, alternately, to be either ‘anti-German’ or ‘anti-Jewish’. Norman Finklestein, author of ‘The Holocaust Industry’, said of Hilberg’s difficulties;

“It is hard now to remember that the Nazi Holocaust was once a taboo subject. During the early years of the Cold War...(it) was seen as undermining the critical US-West German Alliance...airing the dirty laundry of the barely de-nazified West German elites and thereby playing into the hands of the Soviet Union...”

Numerous books have since explored the subject of the Holocaust from most angles, but when Noam Chomsky wrote a foreword for revisionist writer Dr Robert Faurisson book, not in agreement, but in defense of his right to free speech, he was lambasted from both within and without the Jewish community. Aspects of Holocaust discussion remain taboo and it seems that venturing into any subject deemed critical of the official record or Israel has become synonymous with anti-semitism, and it is in this climate that Holocaust Denial has been able to flourish.

Celebrated columnist Joe Sobran was sacked from the National Review in 1993 for using phrases which his boss considered to be, “Contextually anti-semitic”, a move which led to his joining forces with revisionist scholars, and his writing of the inability of academia and the media to freely discuss the number of deaths in the Holocaust, and whether Hitler’s regime was intent on genocide, he stated,

“Surely these are controversial conclusions; but if so, let the controversy rage.”

This inability within even mainstream academia to discuss key aspects of the development and aftermath of the Holocaust has been exploited by extremist factions, permitting them an avenue by which to spread their own messages of division, often, as in the case of Sobran, with the aid of highly qualified historians and writers, even legitimate enquiry can lead to their professional marginalisation and ‘blackballing’ by the establishment. And it is nothing new, the pattern of this victor’s censorship extends throughout history, but has, through the development of global communication in the 20th century, become increasingly tangible since the First War.

Origins of Revisionism and Holocaust Denial



US Historian Professor Harry Elmer Barnes, had initially supported the US war effort, going so far as submitting anti-German propaganda that was considered to be ‘too violent’ for publication. Following the signing of the Treaty of Versailles, he undertook a radical shift, campaigning as virulently, that the Treaty was unjust and representative of “vested political and historical interests”. Views which found little support in the US but gained him supporters elsewhere.

Sponsored by the German Foreign Ministry, Barnes undertook a speaking tour of Europe in 1926, where he met with the former Kaiser, Wilhelm II. Wilhelm, clearly influenced by General Ludendorff, Hitler’s first political mentor, told Barnes that he disagreed with his conclusions that the war was the result of French and Russian aggression, the fault, claimed Wilhelm, lay at the feet of “international Jews and Freemasons.”

Seemingly swayed, Barnes spent much of the 1930s variously accusing the British SIS and Foreign Office, the House of Morgan and Jewish department store owners for impeding his work and life.



The events of the Second War only galvanised his opinions and in 1953 he published an essay ‘Revisionism and the Historical Blockade’ in which he likened the attitude towards academic study of the war, to the terror campaign launched by the Nazis against intellectualism. He was though as critical of Germany this time, accusing them of masochistically accepting sole responsibility for the atrocities.

Around this time Barnes entered into correspondence with former anti-Nazi resistance fighter, Frenchman Paul Rassiner. Rassiner had worked with SOE during the war, assisting shot-down Allied pilots to escape occupied territory via Switzerland, and setting up an anti-Nazi underground newspaper prior to his arrest and interment in Buchenwald and Mittelbrau-Dora concentrations camps. He published an account of these experiences, ‘Crossing the Line’, in 1949.



In 1950 he followed with ‘The Lie of Ulysses’, expressing doubts about the existence of the extermination camps, and Gas Chambers. Rassiner represented popular opinion in his confusion about the distinction between ‘Concentration’ and ‘Death Camps’ and, having been interred in Germany, where there were no death camps, was unqualified to make such assertions. However in the void of discussion about the details of the Holocaust; his views gained currency. Like Barnes, he found an eager sponsor and publicist, Karl-Heinz Priester, former SS Officer and propagandist for Joseph Goebbels , embarking on a twelve city tour of Germany, which culminated in 1961 with the publication of ‘Ulysses Betrayed his Own’.


The Holocaust ‘conspiracy’ took it’s full form with the 1964 publication of ‘The Drama of the Jews’, in which Rassiner claimed that there had never been a policy of extermination of the Jews, the Holocaust was an exaggeration devised by Zionists to extort money to fund the foundation of the Israeli state. This would become the mainstay of the denialist argument, supplemented by accusations that the six million figure death toll was designed to meet the financial needs, through reparations, for the establishment of Israel.

The 1970s saw a popular emergence of neo-Nazism, both in Europe and the US, and with it a resurgence of anti-semitism. Noontide Press, the publishing arm of the Institute for Historical Review (IHR) and founded by another correspondent of Barnes, Willis Carto, printed a translated collection of Rassiner’s works in 1977 for sale in the US.

Holocaust Denial and the White Segregationists



Willis Carto through the Liberty Lobby, and Spotlight magazine, which at it’s peak boasted 300,000 subscribers, was considered one of the foremost racial lobbyists in the US. He had provided backing for a number of political candidates standing for white segregation, and had ties with numerous right wing, white only organisations, including the Klu Klux Klan. In 1966 he had purchased the, then failing, but once highly popular literary magazine, ‘American Mercury’. His partner in that venture was the British Anthropologist, Roger Pearson.



When the ‘Mercury’ went out of print in 1981, Pearson set up ‘Mankind Quarterly’, described as,

“a notorious journal of ‘racial history’ founded, and funded, by men who believe in the genetic superiority of the white race.”

An seemingly well founded description, Pearson is the single largest recipient of grants from the Pioneer Fund, which, when established in 1937 had an administrative board of five directors, of which, three were prominent eugenicists.





In 1978, Carto,in conjunction with former British National Front activist, David McCalden had founded the IHR. Known for publicising the works of numerous revisionist theorists, it consistently gives voice to those that question the validity of the Holocaust and promotes theories of racial differences.

Due to an accusation of misappropriation of funds, Carto was forced out of the IHR and replaced by Mark Weber. Weber had previously been associated with the National Alliance, another white separatist movement, originally founded by William L Pierce.


Pierce, achieved infamy after one of his novels, ‘The Turner Diaries’, was cited as having influenced Timothy McVeigh. The novel vividly depicts a violent race war which culminates in the ethnic cleansing of LA. Those targeted as being of the greatest harm to the white race, are gays, Jews and mixed race couples. Pierce’s second novel, ‘Hunter’, is dedicated to serial killer Joseph Paul Franklin. The protagonist of ‘Hunter’ is a Vietnam veteran who ‘assassinates’ mixed race couples, just as Franklin did.

Weber, with former IHR media director, Bradley R Smith, has gone on to establish, the ‘Committee for the Open Debate of the Holocaust’ (CODOH) which has received some criticism for an advertising campaign that targeted university campus publications in the US, as Smith has explained,

“I don’t want to spend time with adults anymore, I want to go to students. They are superficial. They are empty vessels to be filled.”

The American Free Press and The Truth Movement



According to the author of ‘The Holocaust Denial’, Gill Seidel, the Spotlight adopted...

”...a conservative pose...attacking disarmament, pornography and welfare abuse, promotes a conspiracy theory of history and government. Hidden forces are seen to control and manipulate events. The arch conspirators are the Jews.” (p67)

A tactic, though adapted, that Carto has carried into his most recent venture, the ‘American Free Press’. Regular contributors include James Trafficant, Paul Craig Roberts and Christopher Bollyn, as well as former presidential candidate, Ron Paul. Mark Dankof, who also writes for Iran’s Press TV and ‘Veterans Today’, in 2011 stated that the ‘Protocols of the Elders of Zion’ was an accurate reflection of the world today. Another regular , Michael Collins Piper, host of the talk radio show, ‘The Piper Report’, has said,

“The Israelis literally control our press all except...The American Free Press and the Barnes Review and a few other patriotic, independent publications...They control our congress...Any one of them is liable to rise up...and deliver a speech praising Jews...Zionists...blacks and Indians... Can you imagine them standing up and praising white Christians?”

The Barnes Review, is yet another Carto publication, founded in 1994, and named in honour of Harry E Barnes.

Don’t Hate the Jews!



After his dismissal from the National Review, by his boss, ex CIA man and Skull and Boneser, William F Buckley, Joe Sobran began writing for the ‘Free Press’. In a bizarre, if illuminating twist, Buckley that same year, 1993, issued his own apologetic for Sobran’s remarks in a lengthy essay entitled ‘In Search of Anti-Semitism’. Many readers though were left confused as to it’s purpose, finding it to be less of an enquiry, and more of an appeal aimed at bridging the gap between the Christian and Jewish Right, implying that Israel was somehow sacred and as such, above reproach. Sobran, in his own critique of the essay, summarised,

“It’s real message is not that we should like or respect the Jews; only that we should try not to hate them.”

Described by his peers as “perhaps the finest columnist of our generation”, Sobran while asserting that he is neither an anti-semite nor a Holocaust Denier, spoke alongside such revisionist notaries as David Irving, Mark Weber and Robert Faurisson at a number of IHR conferences.



Following 9/11, Sobran became a leading voice in the emerging ‘Truth’ movement, taking the position that the attacks were the result of US government policies formed by “Jewish – Zionist powers that be in the US.”
Though Sobran claimed that the controversy as to the numbers involved in the Holocaust, and Nazi extermination policy are not discussed, a cursory search of the internet alone, contradicts this view. Such discussion is prolific, and well publicised. It is within the academic realm that most restriction seems to apply and a legitimate injustice in the barring of some aspects of the Holocaust being openly debated which lands even respected academics, like Finklestein, in the dock, effectively silenced. The religious and political extremists retain their voice, be it on the fringe, but it is this blockade of legitimate ‘revisionism’ which allows the denialist to fester their conspiracy theories.



As Hilberg found, it is often the Jewish community who are unwilling to discuss aspects of the Holocaust that may imply complicity, preferring to maintain that Hitler was a monster who had always intended to destroy European Jewry. In this way they avoid acknowledging that the actions of prominent Jews, such as Stephen Wise, who by ordering the World Jewish Congress from sending relief packages to the Ghettos, may have exacerbated the consequences of genocide, particularly in terms of the industrialised murder of the Reich Jews. Wise, acting in strict accordance with Allied policy of ‘aiding the enemy’ without doubt, worsened the conditions in the ghettos, it was the complaints about conditions that expediated the decision to exterminate. As Hilberg stated though, this, is part of the historic Jewish problem, their unerring trust and abidance in law and rule, as Ben Netanyhu explains,

Part of the problem was how they saw themselves. In their contacts with president Roosevelt, Jewish leaders thought of themselves as weak or helpless. Take, for example, Rabbi Stephen Wise – leader of the American Zionist movement, the American Jewish Congress and the World Jewish Congress. He thought of himself as a servant of president Roosevelt. He referred to Roosevelt as “chief,” and he really meant it that way – Roosevelt as was the chief, and Wise was the servant. Wise was happy to just follow along with whatever Roosevelt wanted. He was content as long as FDR just remembered his name or gave him a few minutes of his time every once in a while.

It is this attitude, and loyalty, much like the absence of discussion, that has been exploited by others, for the concealment of more significant skeletons in the closet, such as those who, under the auspices of creating an effective force with which to fight the spread of Soviet Communism recruited large numbers of former Nazis, bringing thousands of them to the US.

The Americanisation of Nazism



Between 1945 and 1955, through Operation Overcast and Project Paperclip, 765 scientists, engineers and technicians were brought to the US. Up to 80% of them were Nazi Party members. The Displaced Persons Act 1948, allowed for the immigration of 400,000 alien nationals over a period of four years, and the Lodge Act 1950, permitted the US Army to recruit 12,000 Europeans, who were given citizenship following five years of service. While Nazis were officially excluded from eligibility, the US government has admitted that checks were not effective, blaming lack of Soviet cooperation for the number of war criminals that evaded detection. Many though simply lied (source).

As Mae Brussell detailed, Richard Nixon was plucked from obscurity after replying to an advertisement.

WANTED -- Congressman candidate with no previous political experience to defeat a man who has represented the district in the House for ten years. Any young man, resident of district, preferably a veteran, fair education, no political strings or obligations and possessor of a few ideas for betterment of country at large may apply for the job. Applicants will be reviewed by 100 interested citizens who will guarantee support but will not obligate the candidate in any way. (26)

Despite such assurances of no obligation, when Nixon, was successful in his campaign for Congress, he continued to serve the interests which had facilitated his rise. As Vice-President, he was responsible for overseeing immigration, establishing an ethnic division of the Republican National Committee that brought into the Whitehouse some of the more notorious of the Nazi puppet state war criminals, including members of the Hungarian Arrow Cross Party, responsible for some of the worst atrocities committed against Jews. The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952, unlike it’s predecessors, made no exclusion to war criminals, until the Holtzmann amendment of 1978 which called for the expulsion of known war criminals.



It may be no coincidence that it was also in 1978 that one of the key personas of the Holocaust Denial movement burst onto the scene, Ernst Zundel.

For the Love of Hitler: Ernst Zundel and Esoteric Hitlerism



Under the pseudonym, Christof Friedrich, Zundel produced the pamphlet “UFOs: Nazi Secret Weapons?” which he distributed through his own publishers, Samistad Publishing Ltd. It became an underground best seller and propelled him onto the talk show circuit. According to Frank Meile, a former contributor to ‘Mankind Quarterly’, and current, senior editor of ‘Skeptic’, Zundel admitted to him that he used the Nazi UFO angle merely to gain attention.

“I realised North Americans were not interested in being educated. They want to be entertained. This book was for fun...it was a chance to get on radio and talk shows. For about 15 minutes of an hour program I’d talk about that esoteric stuff. Then I would...talk about...Jewish scientists in concentration camps, working on these secret weapons...that was my chance to talk about what I wanted to talk about.”

Mission seemingly accomplished, his media profile and readership established, Samisdat began in earnest to distribute Holocaust Denial staples from the likes of Austin App and Arthur Butz, as well as his own contribution, “The Hitler we loved and why.”

Satrivi Devi and the Tenth Avatar of Vishnu



While Zundel may have claimed that his UFO theories were meant as a joke, merely to entertain, evidence points to the contrary, that they were devised purposefully as an effective shroud by which to reach a new readership. In 1978, Zundel had met and conducted a series of taped interviews with a woman named Satrivi Devi, Zundel claimed that it was Devi who first convinced him that the Holocaust was a fraud. So impressed was Zundel that Samisdat issued a new illustrated version of her book, ‘The Lightning and the Sun’, in which she claims that Hitler was ‘Kalki’, the tenth and final avatar of Vishnu, and the “god-like individual of our times.”



Having spied for the Nazis whilst in India during the war, she travelled to Europe to make a pilgrimage of the sites ‘sacred’ to Hitlerism, and was tried in Dusseldorf in 1949 for posting pro-Nazi material, serving eight months in Werl prison where she met a number of women of the SS who had served in various concentration camps. Having already idealised Hitler, upon her release she began a campaign to elevate him to god status, drawing upon her other interests, Hinduism and the race laws of India. Devi believed that the Aryans had instituted the caste system in order to preserve their pure blood, but that their failure to do so had led them to being targeted, legitimately, as prey for the European colonists, who were naturally superior due to the retained purity of their blood.

Devi found numerous bedfellows for her ideas of white separatist, racial purity, establishing links with the British National Party, including Colin Jordan. Jordan,who had in 1962, been appointed ‘World Furhrer’ of the World Union of National Socialists, stated in 1989 that Jesus Christ was “counterfeit”, Hitler was the true Messiah and Saviour, who would be resurrected, making him the “spiritual conqueror of the future.”



Jordan’s deputy Fuhrer, was American Nazi Party Founder, George Lincoln Rockwell, and it was through him that Devi became acquainted with the author of the ‘Turner Diaries’, William L Pierce, who was then editor of Rockwell’s ‘National Socialist World’. So enamoured was Pierce, that he devoted 80 pages of the first edition to an abridged version of ‘The Lightning and the Sun’.


Again in 1978, Devi also met another Hitler devotee, former Chilean diplomat Miguel Serrano. Like Zundel, Serrano went on to produce a number of works linking UFOs with the Nazis, the meeting took place in the Milan hotel owned by Otto Skorzeny.

Some Nazis were too notorious, however useful to the Cold War effort, to be rewarded with US citizenship. Skorzeny helped numerous Nazis, through ODESSA, to escape, some of whom eventually ended up in the US. In 1970, Skorzeny set up the Paladin Group which supplied mercenaries to counter communist insurgency. He worked closely with the Gehlen Organisation, the CIA’s arm in Europe, and was recommended to Egypt’s Nassar by Gehlen, to help train his security forces. As son-in-law to Hitler’s banker, Hjalmar Schacht, he had access to a list of powerful names from among Hitler’s Circle of Friends and his hotel became a hub of the Far Right Elite of Europe. Satrivi Devi was among the regular visitors.

Extraterrestrial Origins of the Aryan Race



Serrano, following this auspicious meeting, went on to write ‘The Golden Ribbon: Esoteric Hitlerism’, clearly showing Devi’s influence, he followed it up in 1984 with ‘Adolf Hitler: The Last Avatar’. In these books Serrano claims that the Aryan people were extraterrestrial in origin, and associates them with the Nordic Aliens familiar to many alien researchers. He draws on a number of sources to support his theory, including the Bible. He claims that the Nephilim or fallen angels recounted in Genesis are these extraterrestrials and that the Book of Enoch relates how these alien gods bred with the Earth races. He expands upon these sources using anthropological comparisons between Cro-Magnon man and Neanderthals, stating that the high artistry of Cro-Magnon is confirmation that these gods created them, while the bestial, abomination that was the Neanderthals confirms their solely terrestrial origin.

The Return of Hitler and the Aryan Collective Unconscious



In parallel with some of the ideas that Zundel expounded under his pseudonym, Friedrich, Serrano goes on to explain that Shambhala is an underground base in Antartica from which Hitler maintains contact with the Hyperborean gods, and from where he will emerge again, replete with a fleet of UFOs to lead the forces of light against darkness to usher in the Fourth Reich. Serrano support this belief with a series of interviews conducted with C G Jung between 1936 and 1939, in which Jung explained that,

“Hitler as possessed by the archetype of the collective Aryan unconsciousness...could not help obeying the commands of an inner voice...Hitler is a spiritual vessel, a demi-divinity; even better, a myth...the Messiah of Germany who teaches the virtue of the sword. The voice he hears is the collective unconsciousness of his race.”

Serrano believed that Jung was merely psychologising the ancient and sacred mysteries of archetypal possession by the gods that rule over their races, and sometimes possess their members. Serrano seems to echo William L Pierce, who in the ‘Diaries’ wrote that the ethnic cleansing was, “Terrible, yet Absolutely Necessary”, and indeed, Joseph Paul Franklin, the serial killer to whom Pierce had dedicated his second novel, who claimed that god wanted him to start a race war, and “cleanse the world.”



Serrano’s views have found credence, and expansion, with some in Germany and Austria. The Tempelhofgesellschaft in Vienna, a Gnostic based Christian movement, teaches that Jesus was not Jewish but Aryan and that according to their source, an Ancient Sumerian manuscript, Aryans came to Atlantis from the star Aldebaran and that this is where the Sumerian language derives. It is the divine mission of the Aryan people to dominate all other races, and like Serrano, they claim that Antartica holds a secret fleet of UFOs, which will emerge with the arrival of the fleet which is on it’s way from Aldebaran. Then, the Western Imperium will be established.

Did a quick first read through. A finely composed thread. Bumpity for now.

reply to post by The GUT


From you, praise indeed, and I do hope that you get chance to read more thoroughly. I haven't added any conclusion of my own, leaving it open as it were, in the hopes of enticing the considered opinions of members such as yourself, whom I esteem.

Many thanks for the bump, highly appreciated.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


Very Nice Kilgore.


It seems that we still have "deniers" and those willing to push eugenics, even still.

I am fascinated and sickened at the same time how the United States had no problem using Nazi Scientists to fulfill some of our modern technological breakthroughs.

I will have to pick through this thread a bit more, as I would like to follow it at my own pace.

Clearly this thread deserves attention.

Well Done!

reply to post by sonnny1


Many thanks

And I hope that you will pop back and add your thoughts once your done 'picking'.

In trying to keep the thread short(ish) there is much that I skipped over or abbreviated, and there are one or two things that I would like to explore a little more, and indeed, one or two tangents that I would like to follow, time permitting.

Thanks again.

This thread is incredibly well done.

Those who are unfamiliar with the subject matter need to know how remarkable it is to have accumulated, correlated and condensed all that information the way KT just did. The first thing that might strike the reader is not just the persistence, over decades, of Nazi ideology; but also the way it mutates and becomes ever stranger- or, possibly, the strangeness was there all along and the intervening years are just stripping it bare.

There's a quote, somewhere out there, from Hitler to the effect that the racial purity angle was just a lever- racial hatred is a very good way to mobilize a disenfranchised population. As in, he didn't really buy into all that hogwash, but found it very easy to exploit those who did.

I guess the same rationale applies to UFO enthusiasts.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


What's confusing is how come 'the Nazis' allowed the civil rights movement to happen? Surely once they are in positions of power they will prevent such a thing from occurring?

reply to post by Eidolon23

...not just the persistence, over decades, of Nazi ideology; but also the way it mutates and becomes ever stranger....

it is the strangeness of it which, for me, makes it a topic of legitimate discussion. whereas the subject of holocaust denial is generally too loaded with controversy to be worthwhile, the bizarro progression of the underground ideology is riveting.

great read, op!

reply to post by starwarsisreal


Implying that

a. There never were many of them in the US, and they were mostly confined to tech and intelligence circles, thus limiting their sphere of influence,

or

b. Race was found to be an unsuitable lever for American (and by extension, via corporate interests, global) culture.

Considering that corporate and banking interests had their own version of Operation Paperclip, I am leaning toward option b.

reply to post by starwarsisreal


the following quote from the post above yours gives a believable answer to your question:

There's a quote, somewhere out there, from Hitler to the effect that the racial purity angle was just a lever- racial hatred is a very good way to mobilize a disenfranchised population. As in, he didn't really buy into all that hogwash, but found it very easy to exploit those who did.

perhaps the "mobilization of a disenfranchised population" shifted from racial purity to racial equality?

this is all quite fascinating.

reply to post by tgidkp


They need some sort of scapegoat though without some form of scapegoat then the Nazis can't be successful.

reply to post by Eidolon23


Nope.
No such quote exists but the Jews on the other hand did turn race into such an issue, hence Hitler's rise.

Originally posted by Viking9019
reply to post by Eidolon23

 

Nope.
No such quote exists but the Jews on the other hand did turn race into such an issue, hence Hitler's rise.

Asatru much?

Anyway, yeah, it does, but I no longer have access to the book, nor, unfortunately do I remember the title. I know how that sounds, but yeah- I'm trying to track it down now. It was, at any rate, a second-hand quote- he was speaking candidly to someone (I'm pretty sure it was Speer) who wrote it up much later.

One quick thought I will add for now is that I do believe we came into contact with some ideological--at the very least--'Cooties" so-to-speak through Project Paperclip and the poor deal that Allen Dulles made with the so-called Ghelen organization (spy network.) An "infection" of sorts. Was it epidemic, is the question?

I do look forward to discussing the many fascinating topics in this thread and I already see some GREAT discussion started!

Looking forward, too, to learning more about the Holocaust issue from both sides of the argument. I had been meaning to dig into that at some point to try and understand it from the revisionist POV. Not because I'm a hater of any sort, just curious about how it all works together and what I might personally make of it as relates the issues presented here.

Outstanding Thread of the Month, this one.

It is the work of people like yourself that keep this in the public knowledge this may only be one thread but the deniers are growing in number as are the ultra right wing supporters, one of the greatest tragedy's after the holocaust has been how like the Nazi the Israel state has become with it's own racial purity and ethnic control even to the point were they were caught out sterilizing black Jewish Ethiopian women.
The Holocaust happened and like any one whom knows they have some Jewish ancestry I feel I have lost distant family there and then to the depravity that man can do unto man.
Thank you.
S+F

Just a footnote, one weakness of the revisionists that is glaring is that they continually either deny outright or even try to minimize the number of victims but though discounted due to lack of supporting evidence at the Nuremberg war crimes trials a former commandant of Auschwitz when asked how many he had killed reply's about 2.5 million in that camp alone so the real estimate if taking his word would be far higher but remember these also included pole's, russian's, political dissidents (though most were murdered in spandau), roma gypsies and anyone the Gestapo or the SS wanted to sent there.

Was hitler a mass murdering Lunatic nutcase whom had the German nation wrapped around his finger or was he just a nice little miss understood guy. I believe evil lunatic sums it up for me but he was not alone.

Originally posted by LABTECH767

Was hitler a mass murdering Lunatic nutcase whom had the German nation wrapped around his finger or was he just a nice little miss understood guy. I believe evil lunatic sums it up for me but he was not alone.

I had an instructor once, who was of Polish extraction, and had lost several relatives to the death camps. He was lecturing us on the dangers inherent in a bureaucratic structure; where all functions are compartmentalized, and responsibility is diffused.

He had two major points, and would go red in the face explaining them:

1. A Hitler-centric view of the holocaust misses the larger truth: it required millions of complicit citizens to kill millions of innocents. And how few of those responsible ever felt the burden of their role in the perpetration of an unfathomably evil act.

2. The figure isn't six million dead, it is twelve million. The mass hatred spread to any group identified as "Other".

I would like to add that I have always thought that widespread amphetamine psychosis played a large role in the holocaust.

While trying to dig up that other quote, I found this one by Speer:

As I see it today, Hitler and Goebbels were in fact molded by the mob itself, guided by its yearnings and its daydreams. Of course, Goebbels and Hitler knew how to penetrate through to the instincts of their audiences; but in the deeper sense they derived their whole existence from these audiences. Certainly the masses roared to the beat set by Hitler's and Goebbels' baton; yet they were not the true conductors. The mob determined the theme. To compensate for misery, insecurity, unemployment, and hopelessness, this anonymous assemblage wallowed for hours at a time in obsessions, savagery and license. The personal unhappiness caused by the breakdown of the economy was replaced by a frenzy that demanded victims. By lashing out at their opponents and vilifying the Jews, they gave expression and direction to fierce primal passions.

www.goodreads.com...

Wow. Thanks for compiling all that OP.

I read this stuff with wide eyes. I think I'd once heard that someone, somewhere, insisted that one or more elements of the holocaust didn't happen, but this seemed so outrageous to me I never much gave it another thought.

I knew a man whose friend was a soldier who was one of the first into some of the death camps by the way and he shared slides of photos nobody else in the world had. I don't have any doubt whatsoever the things reported are true.

Now, whether they are "six million jews and seven million others" true -- I don't know, does that really matter? I mean, if they "only" killed 2 million instead of 6 million jews, what difference would that make to the horror of it?

As for the people who were "in the nazi party" and immigrated, I would expect nearly anybody who didn't want to end up in a camp themselves to be officially in the party and I don't really consider that any indictment on its own.

I am pretty sure Hitler was not a god, however.

I was taught in high school that the Allies basically promised both the arabs and the jews a bunch of land if they would help us win the war, and both groups expected it when we did, and then they were in a bad situation and eventually a very tiny -- but the most lush by far -- region was carved out for the jews, with the rest going to the arabs (Britain having technically held the lands). Is that not so? Because I don't see any mention of that when the discussion of the 'number of killed' being used for 'leverage' was addressed. Maybe it was, I don't know, but I'm still not sure a vastly lower number of killed would make the situation less real or horrible. As for leverage, show me any situation in history that doesn't have some of that in there somewhere. I think "our people were murdered en masse" is pretty good leverage, regardless of the numbers.

I am not sure, is there some implication that is illegal or whatever to talk about the holocaust or aftermath in detail? I mean, aside from a lot of angry people in response to doing so, it's not like you can prohibit someone having an open opinion can you?

(Unless it's about medicine. Then you can burn their books, smash and burn their labs, and kill them, if the history of the AMA/FDA and healing modalities (Reich, Abrams, and many others) are any guide. However I'd like to think that this is specific to that topic and that other topics, such as 'history' don't have such 'proactive' agencies defending them.)

Aside from the people you mentioned, are there actually many people today who would deny the holocaust happened? And are they denying it, or merely denying some detail of it, e.g. how many died?

Zionism isn't the cause of Mideast bloodshed. There's been plenty of blood shed there before any Zionists set foot there. Playing Devil's advocate here, but if it weren't for Zionism, those ancient looking European Hassidim holding up those signs boycotting Zionism would be in a shallow grave courtesy of the Grand Mufti. Zionism is the only thing standing in the way of Islam reclaiming the entire Mideast. Now i'm not a Zionist myself, but it's a pretty one sided argument to constantly point the finger at Zionism and lay all the blame, when there's plenty of blame to go around. There are no innocent people here, or there or anywhere. We're all wrong doers and sinners so it's no point trying to play Mr. or Ms. Innocent.