Good lord, people. Think about what you're believing in!

reply to post by jiggerj


Sorry Jiggerj. I tend to agree with most of your posts, but when it comes to Padre Pio I have to disagree with you. The information on Padre Pio is modern, well sourced, and documented. He had the stigmata. Miracles around him are well documented. I'm not sure where you live, but if you are near Barto Pennsylvania, it might be worth a day trip for you to visit the Padre Pio Center there. I've been a few times. It's very interesting. Think of it as a challenge to you .... try to debunk the information and stigmata relics that are there .... the blood soaked stole ... the film footage showing the bleeding stigmata ... (before photoshop!) ... things like that.

Side note ... I have attended a mass that had 'the blessing with Padre Pio's glove' ... it was performed by his nephew who is a priest. His glove is brought to hospitals and sick people in this area (Philadelphia area). I wasn't cured. But upon walking into the church and all during the mass I felt an electric energy in the church. It was tangible. It was supercharged. (it wasn't me being excited .. my mood had been flat) And another time I was at the Padre Pio center ... back when I first got really super-sick three 1/2 years ago ... and I prayed asking for a cure. Padre Pios glove was in a little transparent case. I had my hand on the front of the case and a man had his hand on the back of the case. We both had our palms pressed to the case and we both were praying. I felt an electric charge come out of the case ... and it went towards the man with his hand pressed in back. It didn't go towards me. But it was real.

I don't know why some people are cured and others aren't. I just know that it's real that some are.

Originally posted by jiggerj
I would never dislike someone over their religious beliefs. It's just frustrating that they are so willing to NOT hear the falseness of what even they are offering as proof.

I totally hear you. When something can be proven wrong ... then it's wrong. That's why what I believe is based on personal experience MUCH more than what is written in ancient books.

But you know, jiggerj, what you just said kind of goes both ways. It's frustrating that there are real supernatural things that are going on, and the anecdotal evidence is overwhelming, but some folks refuse to see it. Not everything that people say is going on is true of course, but some of it is. It does happen sometimes.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Sorry Jiggerj. I tend to agree with most of your posts, but when it comes to Padre Pio I have to disagree with you. The information on Padre Pio is modern, well sourced, and documented. He had the stigmata.

Of course it would be well documented by those that want to believe. They will completely ignore things like this:

Controversies It is claimed that no more than Anecdotal evidence supports Pio’s alleged mystical abilities. Some of his bilocations are consistent with hallucinations and the supposed odor of sanctity was purported to be Eau de Cologne. He was never watched continually to ensure that chemicals like carbolic acid or iodine were not used to prevent wounds from healing, as has been claimed. Pio over many years wore fingerless gloves which concealed his wounds or prevented him having to tend to the wounds. Near his death Pio avoided covering his hands and there was no sign of injury.[15][16][17][unreliable source?] The founder of Milan's Catholic University of the Sacred Heart, friar, physician and psychologist Agostino Gemelli, who met Padre Pio once, for a few minutes, but was unable to examine his stigmata,[18] concluded Padre Pio was "an ignorant and self-mutilating psychopath who exploited people's credulity."

ignorant and self-mutilating psychopath And this is from a Friar. Why would he lie?

reply to post by jiggerj


So the founder of a university meets Padre Pio for a few minutes ... fails to inspect Padre Pio's wounds or even get into an investigation of any kind ... he gets indignant and disgruntled and he starts calling Padre Pio names ... "Ignorant and self mutilating' .... :shk: That's hardly a scientific or complete study .. ya' know??

I've smelled the odor of sanctity a few times. It's a very strong smell of roses.
So it does happen.

Padre Pios wounds disappearing near his death is in line with other stigmatics and disfigured saints through the centuries. In the months before their death .. or right after death ... the wounds or disfigurements disappear. That's historically how it happens. I don't know why.

reply to post by jiggerj


There are some people who will believe any spiritual or supernatural claim no matter what. On the flip side, there are those who will disbelieve any spiritual or supernatural claim no matter what. They are two sides of the same coin. Then there are those who will keep an open mind and acknowledge that there are things in the universe that happen that we don't understand, but at the same time they don't automatically attribute every event to something supernatural. So those people keep their objectivity and are well balanced. Which category do you fit into jiggerj?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by jiggerj

 

So the founder of a university meets Padre Pio for a few minutes ... fails to inspect Padre Pio's wounds or even get into an investigation of any kind ... he gets indignant and disgruntled and he starts calling Padre Pio names ... "Ignorant and self mutilating' .... :shk: That's hardly a scientific or complete study .. ya' know??

I've smelled the odor of sanctity a few times. It's a very strong smell of roses.
So it does happen.

Padre Pios wounds disappearing near his death is in line with other stigmatics and disfigured saints through the centuries. In the months before their death .. or right after death ... the wounds or disfigurements disappear. That's historically how it happens. I don't know why.

Why would this Friar, who is also a physician, only be allowed a few minutes time? Could it be that Pio wouldn't let the doctor examine him? Also, you are talking about the smell of roses. I thought the smell was supposed to be lilacs, but either way, why would this article claim the smell to be a perfume out of a bottle?

the wounds or disfigurements disappear. Isn't that convenient? lol

Originally posted by jiggerj
Why would this Friar, who is also a physician, only be allowed a few minutes time?

Padre Pio was in a monastery and was supposed to be leading a life of contemplation out of the public eye. His time was supposed to be spent in prayer, holy quiet contemplation, giving confessions, and mass. LOTS of secular people demanded his time. If he met with all them then he would no longer be participating in the life of a monk. It is for his own spiritual safety that he wasn't put in the spotlight.

Could it be that Pio wouldn't let the doctor examine him?

He was only allowed to meet with people that his superiors allowed him to meet with. And like I said, people from all over the world were constantly demanding to meet with him. If they all got to dissect him, then Padre Pio wouldn't be able to live the life of a monk as he was supposed to. And frankly ... this disgruntled fella who got his feathers all ruffled was no one special. Sounds like he was just bitter that he wasn't treated special ...

Also, you are talking about the smell of roses. I thought the smell was supposed to be lilacs, but either way, why would this article claim the smell to be a perfume out of a bottle?

The smell is roses. That's what it smells like. I've smelled it a few times. It's amazing. And as far as the article claim that the smell was out of a perfume bottle ... .... of course it COULD have been ... but that doesn't mean that it WAS. And that doesn't explain why the odor of sanctity (smell of roses) still happens around the relics of Padre Pio ... etc etc. A perfume from a bottle wouldn't last decades and decades later. ya' know??

I've been in prayer in chapels or churches or fields or mountain tops (medjugorje) and had the odor of sanctity come upon me. I've been with a very holy priest and have it suddenly come upon us and leave just as suddenly. I've had it happen in my home. It's not a faint whiff of perfume or the smell of a flower on the wind. It's unique. Unforgettable. unexplainable. (and you know that I'm not a person who is prone to believe every thing is supernatural or believable ...)

the wounds or disfigurements disappear. Isn't that convenient?

Like I said ... I don't know why that happens ... but all through history it has been that people with disfigurements or wounds clear up a few months before death.

More info on the stigmata
Many of the stigmatic saints would have have the stigmata show up on Holy Thursday, with blood flowing dramatically until Good Friday afternoon, only to have the wound completely healed on Holy Saturday. No scars.

It happens.

The title of this thread ... "Good Lord People. Think about what you're believing in!' .... I think it's the best thread you've ever started. It's a great question. It's good for people to take a long hard look at what they believe and why they believe it. MY OWN BELIEFS are based on my experiences.

Lemme' ask you jiggerj ... why do you believe what you believe?

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by MamaJ

 

(Adam-Jesus-Man-You-Me-All-One) all around.

Aw, Mama, there was no Adam. Even the church is now stating this. The topic starts around 3:50 in this clip.

Do you want to believe and have faith in what this man is saying or do you want to use your own brain and logic?

Obviously there was a FIRST man. Call him whatever you deem necessary. Some things are just evident. We can look around and see nature follows a pattern. This awareness opens many doors of insight.

Have faith in whatever you want. Don't believe in a creator and just believe we are here by accident... luck if you will.

We all watch a story unfold. We each see it differently. The story I see is an amazing art with wisdom behind each and every script. You see it differently. So be it.

ETA: The problem with the video is you have a panel of thoughts based on a boxed in system. All members on the panel are boxed in with their thoughts and beliefs. Open the mind and see the all working together instead of against one another.



We can all come to conclusions Manly came to but only after we have cleared the mind with all doctrine and seek to know answers from our own research and evidence from His-story.

reply to post by MamaJ


Regardless of what we want to believe, there is only one truth. I'm not so sure we have found that truth yet...at least, not in its entirety. But we have plenty of time to work on it, right? Thousands and thousands of years.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by MamaJ

 

Regardless of what we want to believe, there is only one truth. I'm not so sure we have found that truth yet...at least, not in its entirety. But we have plenty of time to work on it, right? Thousands and thousands of years.

edit on 24-8-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

What I want to believe and what is solid truth is different.... they are not the same.

Im open to all possibilities and always have been, however the more I seek and learn the more evidence pops me in the face.

The nature of things cannot be dismissed. There is a natural order within and outside with all things.

We have not only many years but many lives as well to help us grow UP.

When you fall, the main goal is to get back up. We are constantly getting back up, dusting our self off, and working toward a goal. This is the nature of life on Earth as we know it. Everything else is for us to discover along the way.

For me, discovering the unseen or unthinkable is exhilarating. The veil is only to cloud the mind but when you intentionally lift the veil the discoveries are endless.

Lemme' ask you jiggerj ... why do you believe what you believe?

reply to post by FlyersFan



LOL I just answered that in YOUR new thread. This one has gone way WAYYY off topic.

reply to post by jiggerj

Okay ... I just read it. You have a point.

P.S. I should say that I don't think your thread has gotten off topic. People are stating what they believe and why. And some are defending what they believe and why. I think it's all pretty well within the topic. Just sit back and relax and let your points flow in from all the answers. (not that you can do anything with points ... it's not like they are worth anything or can buy anything. )

Good thread. Reminds me of this video I saw recently.



We all know where you're going.

Originally posted by jiggerj

We're still friends I hope, colbe

reply to post by colbe

 

Of course. I would never dislike someone over their religious beliefs. It's just frustrating that they are so willing to NOT hear the falseness of what even they are offering as proof. If you go to :50 of that clip you will hear how the woman admits to gaining sight BEFORE meeting Pio.

This proves God even more, another divine to add, He knew her intention and her Grandmother's intention before they even voiced it to Padre Pio. They were on the way to see Pio. God gave sight to woman without pupils. How is that possible? God can do anything. Believe jigger.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
P.S. It's a valid concern I suppose, but real and authentic unconditional love doesn't deal in fear or threats, so there's an obvious flaw in traditional "Christian" theology/doctrine...*snip*
*snip*
In truth there can be no real heaven including heaven on earth unless and until the very prospect of hell no matter how far removed, is utterly removed, because only then can we be motivated to realize true goodness and love for the sake of goodness and love itself, in all it's reward.

No good Christian therefore argues for hell, nor uses hell as a prod by which to bring people to Christ. It's not "Good News" if there's a catch, that unless you accept, you'll be damned and doomed, forever. That's absurd and pathetic, and God as infinite intelligence is quite well aware of the dilemma and if he hasn't already is in the process of working out a new system of governance which needn't compromise with sin and evil to deal with it appropriately, according to his unconquerable love.
*snip*

Actually, real love means that one warns those they love of real dangers. What sort of parent would not warn a child of the dangers of playing in the street, or talking to strangers, or touching a hot stove?

What sort of society would reward criminals for their bad behavior? Think long on that one.

The simple fact is that Hell is a place of punishment, for those that refuse to accept that God loves them, and offered them salvation for free. People that refuse to repent of their sins/admit they did something wrong, who reject God, and all the rules, and the salvation He offers, should not be rewarded by pretending they did nothing wrong.

What sort of justice could there be if one could do literally anything, commit any evil act, with no consequences?

What sort of loving God would force those that reject Him to live with Him for all eternity?

This really isn't complicated.

reply to post by jiggerj


Thanks for the colorful description of what hell was there in your original post, all of which are from your imagination. Hell is the lack of God. I am not sure what your post is trying to say, other than to accept there is something good, there has to be something bad? Look around you, the way humans treat each other is already far worse than what you described or are capable of imagining.

Acknowledging God acknowledges that you are in need of saving. If I am understanding your post correctly, then I could stipulate the follow: You believe that mankind is good? Well you are deranged because it means you believe that mankind is also bad? No, it just means you can see the difference between good and evil, and choose the good.

Originally posted by colbe

Originally posted by jiggerj

We're still friends I hope, colbe

reply to post by colbe

 

Of course. I would never dislike someone over their religious beliefs. It's just frustrating that they are so willing to NOT hear the falseness of what even they are offering as proof. If you go to :50 of that clip you will hear how the woman admits to gaining sight BEFORE meeting Pio.

This proves God even more, another divine to add, He knew her intention and her Grandmother's intention before they even voiced it to Padre Pio. They were on the way to see Pio. God gave sight to woman without pupils. How is that possible? God can do anything. Believe jigger.

Let's shrink the world for a moment. I am blind and standing next to three others: 1. a hideously deformed baby in a hospital, 2. a child that is starving to death in Somalia, and 3. a lovely 13 year old girl being gang raped by a bunch of soldiers in a third-world country. God gives me sight, but does nothing for the others. Not only would I try to refuse this miracle and pass it on to one of the others, I would hate this god more than anything else in the universe!

If you're interested, here's a story I wrote under a different pen name. One Miracle Too Many

Originally posted by jiggerj
Just browsed a few religious threads and the religious sincerity of some of you is frightening.

Look, somehow you all cuddle up to the idea of a loving biblical god, beautiful angels, and a place in paradise just for little ol' you. Isn't that special.

Well, if you're going to embrace all the deliciously ooey-gooey stuff with such fervor and unyielding faith, then you HAVE to believe in the malignant horrors that awaits you with the same exact intensity.

If there is a heaven, then there's a hell; a hell with an evil entity so malicious, so malevolent, that he's just drooling at the chance of torturing you throughout all of eternity. Comparing your soul to your physical body, this Satan just can't wait to rape you for a few hundred thousand years. And, as he does this he will dig his claws in and rip your flesh right off your bones. He'll crunch on your fingers. He'll roast you over a searing fire. And then, he'll heal you so he can start all over again. He'll throw you in a dark lonely void for a million years, or until you go stark raving mad. He'll sever a vein in your neck and drink your blood while you are wide awake. He'll make you watch as he does the same gruesome things to your loved ones that also landed in hell. He will delight in your endless screams, screams that will fall on deaf ears from above. You will have no hope, no escape, no relief, no release.

Is THIS what you want to believe in???????? Are you completely out of your minds???????

The main issue I have with the bible and god is this.My father is one of the genuine good people,oh he has his faults and he does my head in regularly but he will help anyone,does right by people by which I mean treats them with respect and honesty.He's as honest as the day is long,in fact he lost his career and put a 30 year pension on the line because he told the truth rather what his bosses wanted to hear.He's kind,genuine,honest,responsible and if you were in sh*t creek without a paddle there's no one else you'd rather have in your corner.He's does what he does not because the bible says it's right but because HE believes it's the right way to live YET.....

....he's a complete athiest,there's absolutely no solid,scientific evidence of a god so as far as he's concerned there is no god,plain and simple.On his death bed he won't change his mind and cry out to a god he doesn't believe in,that I can guarantee.

According to the christians,the bible and god he'll go to hell because he doesn't/can't believe whereas a child raping priest who begs forgiveness or a murderer that turns to the lord will be saved.

If that is true,if that's acceptable to god,if that's the kind of god you christians believe in,if that's either right of fair then if it turns out there is a god,which I highly doubt but if there is then he's no god I want anything to do with !!!

Originally posted by honested3
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Thanks for the colorful description of what hell was there in your original post, all of which are from your imagination. Hell is the lack of God. I am not sure what your post is trying to say, other than to accept there is something good, there has to be something bad? Look around you, the way humans treat each other is already far worse than what you described or are capable of imagining.

Acknowledging God acknowledges that you are in need of saving. If I am understanding your post correctly, then I could stipulate the follow: You believe that mankind is good? Well you are deranged because it means you believe that mankind is also bad? No, it just means you can see the difference between good and evil, and choose the good.

So, as you claim that there is both good and bad in the world, are you implying that there is only heaven and no hell? How do you account for the contradiction?

Originally posted by jiggerj
If there is a heaven, then there's a hell;

Hey my friend I realize that we do have to be careful about what we believe in. Many times I have simply perceived wrong, it took someone to tell me correctly and make me see the truth. This is a great opportunity for people to also tell you things that are not true and have you believe in them. Soon it gets to a point that you have to chalk up all of the stuff you cannot believe in just because it is what people are telling you. They are also being told things, and everything ever about what we say or think in our perception is Only based on what we remember since birth, of course this gets over to the philosophy section because there is a debate on exactly what memory is and how it connects to spirituality and religion.

I see it as a creator that created the universe. I don't see it like the universe is one big display of yin and yang, but One Creator. So all the logic in my mind doesn't build up to that meaning there has to be a hell in the universe. There are places extremely hot, there are places extremely cold, there are black holes, there are explosions, there are unknowns. I can believe these ideas just as much as what the next person has to say because there is a reason why that route does not get specific.

Is THIS what you want to believe in???????? Are you completely out of your minds???????

You were the one that had the thought, so you actually believe in it