Carthaginians Africans??.

This topic is a spin-off from a thread I had with ATS member Hanslume www.abovetopsecret.com... In it the Canaries were brought up in connection with Carthaginian migration, a question aroused were the Carthaginians Africans,my answer is yes but any quick study will tell us that they came from the Levant and so could not be Africans I have long looked into this and here is what I found.
Khart Haddast or Carthage was said to be founded at about 814 B.C by Phoenician colonizers..under a legendary Queen Dido. but what do we know of both civilizations in terms of culture and ethnic origins. were the people biologicially Africans...Eur-Asians..A combination of the two?..and was that reflected in the culture as well?... simplistic questions of simply were they black or white will not do..first a look at the founding fathers of the Carthaginians..the Phoenicians who were they really?


From the very beginning as any good Sunday school student knows..the Canaanites the original name of the people was the son of Ham brother of Misriem brother of Kush. Making Canaan the only one of Ham's sons to fall out-side Africa...But wait!! fall out side Africa politically but if we were to go by the actual tectonic plates then it falls within Africa geographically.

African Tectonic Plate follow the line up to Turkey.
But many here will say come on Spider plates shlamtes non is gonna buy Laventines as Africans most of all the majority of lavantines themselves.
But what about ancient biological and cultural grounds.

The history of human migrations from Africa into West Eurasia is only partially understood. Archaeological and genetic evidence indicate that anatomically modern humans arrived in Europe from an African source at least 45,000 years ago, following the initial dispersal out of Africa [1], [2]. However, it is known that Southern Europeans and Levantines (people from modern day Palestine, Israel, Syria and Jordan) have also inherited genetic material of African origin due to subsequent migrations. One line of evidence comes from Y-chromosome [3] and mitochondrial DNA analyses [4]–[6]. These have identified haplogroups that are characteristic of sub-Saharan Africans in Southern Europeans and Levantines but not in Northern Europeans [7]. Auton et al. [8] presented nuclear genome-based evidence for sharing of sub-Saharan African ancestry in some West Eurasians, by identifying a North-South gradient of haplotype sharing between Europeans and sub-Saharan Africans, with the highest proportion of haplotype sharing observed in south/southwestern Europe. However, none of these studies used genome-wide data to estimate the proportion of African ancestry in West Eurasians, or the date(s) of mixture. Throughout this report, we use “African mixture” to refer to gene flow into West Eurasians since the divergence of the latter from East Asians; thus, we are not referring to the much older dispersal out of Africa ~45,000 years ago but instead to migrations that have occurred since that time.

www.plosgenetics.org...

The above is important because even before the time of PepyII who settled thousands of troops from the deep south as far away as Wawat,Yam,Irejet etc in that tiny corridor, Nile valley Africans were present so much so that the Levantines took on a Nile Valley character in addition to their original culture and that was reflected through out their history.

The Kemetic/ Pheonician connection..due to the Kemites lack of big trees..they imported large amounts of Lebanese Pines that they also used for their ships.In fact the very name Phoenician may very well derived from the kemitic word,Fenekhu, which some Egyptologist have suggested means wood-chopper.

Phoenician Identity crisis;Renan's first major discovery was a group of stone slabs inscribed with Egyptian hieroglyphs.next he found a large bas-relief portraying what happened to be the Egyptian goddess Hathor,her head adorned with the cows horn sun disk,exactly as she appeared on Egyptian reliefs. Later excavators at Byblos turned up more in the same vain-Egyptian-style obelisks,a multitude of vessels bearing the insignia of the Egyptian Pharaohs,A magnificent temple of Hathor dating from the 3rd millennium B.C. Indeed everywhere archaeologist turned in Phoenicia, they seemed to stumble across the specter of Egypt:

We should not be so surprised to find Babylos so Egyptianized .The city had spent much of it's early history under Egypt's Imperial thumb. At least as early as the 12th dyn.according to Egyptologist David O Conner,Babylos "functioned to some degree as a vassal state of Egypt. It remained so for the next 1000yrs.

The above taken from Black Spark White Fire.

So there you have it the Phoenicians even if they did not originally came from further south which they might have ,they received such massive influence from Kemet that at one point their culture became almost indistinguishable from that of Kemet.So at the very least we can say the Phoenicians where part African in culture..even before they made the trip to become Carthaginians...and just by casual eyeballing some look very much like their neighbors to the south.

North Syrian

(Canaanite) Soldier and Egyptian wife
However- just keeping it real - So some folks looked like what some West-Asians usually look like. some looked and dressed like Africans. Not to mention the remains found at Lakish:The excavation uncovered a mass of human bones,which was estimated to from the remains of fifteen hundred individuals..remains of 695 skulls were brought to London by the British expedition...curiously,the crania indicate a close resemblance to the population of Egypt at this time...the relationships found suggest that the population of the town in 700 B.C was entirely of Egyptian origin..they show further,that the population of lakish was probably derived from upper Egypt.
James E Brunson:





From Nimrod





Specifications: Diameter: 18 cm and height: 2 cm; Bronze bowl with Egyptian motifs, Phoenician style, dating to about 8th century BC, and Found at Nimrud, northern Iraq; excavation ID - ME N59
All courtesy of exploring-africa.blogspot.jp...

Canaan (Phoenician: , Kana'n, Hebrew: כנען kna-an, Arabic: كنعان Kanaʿān) is an ancient term for a region encompassing modern-day Israel and Lebanon, the Palestinian Territories, plus adjoining coastal lands and parts of Jordan, Syria and northeastern Egypt. In the Hebrew Bible, the "Land of Canaan" extends from Lebanon southward across Gaza to the "Brook of Egypt" and eastward to the Jordan River Valley, thus including modern Israel and the Palestinian Territories. In far ancient times, the southern area included various ethnic groups. The Amarna Letters found in Ancient Egypt mention Canaan (Akkadian: Kinaḫḫu) in connection with Gaza and other cities along the Phoenician coast and into Upper Galilee. Many earlier Egyptian sources also make mention of numerous military campaigns conducted in Ka-na-na, just inside Asia. Various Canaanite sites have been excav[

edit on 2-8-2013 by Spider879 because: fixing

our old friend Bes in Punic Ibiza Spain

Thunder and sex: Min,Pan and BwAZA:

With the possible exception of the Yazidis and the Alawi, in Iraq and Syria,the non-christian or non muslims among the Gurage of South-Central Ethiopia are today the only Semetic speaking "pagans". Among them,Bwaza or Bazo is still worshipped for his arbitary violence and sexual appetite. as a Gurage hymn puts it:

Oh Bwaza,is there a place you do not descend to,
a Keyae(house-hold) you do not visit,where you do not slay father and son Where you do not elope with the mother and daughter?.

Intrestingly,these two apperently contridictory aspects seem to be reflected ethymologicallyin the name Bwaza itself. this comes from a Semetic or Afroasiatic biconsonantal root BZ with many different forms,which the lexicographer David Cohen groups into semantic clusters,split, divide,distribute and inflate,inseminate and abound. In the book of Ruth Boaz was the name of Naomi's kinsman whose association with fertility is shown by his consumation of his marrage to Ruth,on a threshing floor at harvest time in Bethlehem,'House of Bread'. The thundering aspect of Bw.aza is paralleled in the Biblical use of the name Bo.az as the name of one of the pair of pillars placed infront of the temple of Yahweh. Bo.az was presumably also the name of the similar pillars known to have been placed before other Canaanite temples. The pratice of placing free standing pillars in front of temples has a counterpart in the cult of Bw.aza among the Guarage. The priest of Bw.aza called maga- a name that is intrestingly and inexplicably close to the Irainian Magi-distribute for profit small strips of wood,sana,from trees struck by lightning. These are placed onthe ground close to the entrance of a compound or outside a hutan as the anthropologist William Shack puts it,Whereever sana is displayed,it symbolizes that the land and property is blessed and others respect it for fear of Bw.za reprisals.This type of spiritual lightining conductor infront of houses would seem to be a Gurage parallel on a domestic scale to the Bo.az placed in front of temples.The need for protection from this fierce but creative divinity in West Semitic religion can be seen in the Ugaratic hymns and epics of Ba'al,who punishes without mercy while fertiliziting the land and,like a storm tears out and brandishes trees.
Taken from Black Athena
More to come..next we will move to Carthage proper.

reply to post by Spider879


uh huh

Geographical Africa is a political construct devised to give a name to a part of Asia. Europe and Africa are just peninsulas of Asia.The made up border has no magical influence on everyone - on either side of it

Ham? Really?

From what we know now everyone was formerly an 'African' so if you want you can claim every cultural advance there is...... I think you're pushing the data a bit to hard.

Perhaps it would be clearer if you defined what 'African' means to you.

Yep they were definitely African, no two ways about that

Just do a google image search for Carthaginian coins and the African likeness just jumps out at you!

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by Spider879

 

uh huh

Geographical Africa is a political construct devised to give a name to a part of Asia. Europe and Africa are just peninsulas of Asia.The made up border has no magical influence on everyone - on either side of it

Ham? Really?

From what we know now everyone was formerly an 'African' so if you want you can claim every cultural advance there is...... I think you're pushing the data a bit to hard.

Perhaps it would be clearer if you defined what 'African' means to you.

I know it's a political construct but most people accept it unconditionally my point is the ancient Levantines were much more closely aligned geo-politically and culturally to the south than they are today.

The sons of Ham was thrown in because most here are familiar with the legend and it makes it easier to connect with who the ancient Canaanites were and their connection with the Kemites.

My definition of an African is any person born of the continent who carries African culture and have recent biological connection to it's people..however I realize that some folks have no recent biological connections but are die hard self identified Africans, given the fact that many folks who are European born but have recent African connection and is accepted as European but not necessarily old school native I can live with that. Mind you another person of recent African descent may take issue with the above.

Now that we can safely say that Pheonicia was atleast partly African and partly West Asian in culture,and biologically..lets follow their move to North West Africa and beyond.

Khart Haddast or Carthage was said to be founded at about 814 B.C by Phoenician colonizers..under a legendary Queen Dido who found other people on spot on arrival.

Dido and the founding of Carthage:

Very early in ancient history, Phoenician sailors had visited the far corners of the Mediterranean sea and established commercial relations with the local people. Sidonian Phoenicians had established trading posts in the 16th century B.C. at Utica which is relatively close to where Carthage was later to be established. Their main objective was commercial to compete with their Tyrinian Phoenician brothers who had a colony at Utica. Archaeological evidence of the early settlements have been found. The position of Utica towards Carthage was precisely that of Sidon towards Tyre. It was the more ancient city of the two, and it preserved a certain kind of position without actual power. Carthage and Utica competed, like Tyre and Sidon and they were at one time always spoken of together.

Elissar and her Tyrinian entourage, including her priests and temple maidens of Ashtarte, crossed the length of the Mediterranean in several ships and settled the shores of what's today modern Tunisia. Her expedition came and negotiated with the local inhabitants on purchasing a piece of land. Sailing into the Gulf of Tunis she spied a headland that would be the perfect spot for a city and chose the very site called Cambe or Caccabe which was an ancient Sidonian Phoenician trading post. However, some records indicate that the goddess Tanit (Juno in Latin) indicated the spot were to found the city. The natives there weren't too happy about the newcomers, but Elissar was able to make a deal with their king Japon: she promised him a fair amount of money and rent for many years for as much land as she could mark out with a bull's skin.

The king thought he was getting the better end of the deal, but he soon noticed that the woman he was dealing with was smarter than he had expected. This purchase contained some intrigue while the size of the land was thought not to exceed a "Bull's Hide," it actually was a lot larger then ever thought. The trick she and her expedition employed was that they cutup a bull's hide into very thin which they sewed together into one long string. Then they took the seashore as one edge for the piece of land and laid the skin into a half-circle. Consequently, Elissar and her company got a much bigger piece of land than the king had thought possible. The Carthaginians continued to pay rent for the land until the 6th century BC. That hilltop today is called the "Byrsa." Byrsa means "ox hide." However, there is some confusion over the word; some believe that it refers to the Phoenician word borsa which means citadel or fortress.

phoenicia.org...

So as one can see there was no plundering or forcing of the natives off their lands..but what of the natives themselves?...well they are non other than the so-called Berbers an African people carrying East African male dna and significant Eurasian mtdna..maybe the experts on this board can explain it better than I. so quite possibly they looked like both creamy colored Libyans and the much darker types such as the Tuarage and others..so in that sense they would look very similar to the incoming Phoenicians and coin and sculpture bares this out. As to when these Africans pick-up Eurasian mtdna is still being debated.

The earliest type


This type was also present..from Spain.


[pic]kk51fc07df.jpg[/pic




Most of the above are from Ibiza Spain

All the above are Berbers the last in the pic is baller Zadine
AS you can see they include Eur-Asian types from their very beginning..and this is reflect in all strata of their society...so the question was Carthage African culturally?...the ans is yes and heavily so but not absolutely so. and that goes for biology as well..they started off Afro-Eurasian..in the land of Canaan was dominated by Black/Kemetic culture and Blood for over a 1000yrs..split-off and went to North-West Africa and linked up with an African people who carried an African Culture but had the both Dna from East African Fathers and Eurasian Mothers...again just how and even when that came about is not entirely clear.

the founding fathers of the usa were african too as were the spanish conquistators that invaded south american.

Originally posted by votan
the founding fathers of the usa were african too as were the spanish conquistators that invaded south american.

Hello Voton maybe you were taking a pss at the subject matter of this thread in any case know that some interesting history lay buried behind your post also..

Crispus Attucks the first to take a bullet for the revolution although a runaway slave who was making a living as a dock worker and merchant seaman in Boston, so yes he was not a signer of the declaration of independence the constitution or a general but this self made freeman stood and fell for freedom of others..founding father he was along with all the rest of the little people who died and got no glory

Africans did made the trip in early post May Flower crossings mostly as indentured servants or slaves a man of minor importance was one Benjamin Banneker author, scientist, mathematician, farmer, astronomer, publisher and urban planner eg helped design the state capitol Washington D.C,and yes some did came with the Spanish and Portuguese Conquistadors ex: Estevanico born in 1490 in Azemmour,Morrocco explored Arizona and New Mexico Juan Garrido African by birth took part in the invasions of Puerto Rico, Cuba,Mexico, participated in the siege of Tenochtitlan. He married and settled in Mexico City.this is a biggie he was the first cultivate wheat in the New World.



Juan Garrido of Spanish imperialist forces

1793: Dr. Benjamin Rush, Founding Father (signer of the Declaration of Independence), wrote an essay titled "A plan of a Peace-Office for the United States".[1] Dr. Rush called for equal footing with the Department of War and pointed out the effect of doing so for the welfare of the United States in promoting and preserving perpetual peace in the United States. First published in a 1793 almanac that Benjamin Banneker authored, .

en.wikipedia.org...

Imagine if a Dept of peace was founded and given equal funding and prestige as the Dept of war Dr Benjamin Rush was so far a head of his time.

Originally posted by votan
the founding fathers of the usa were african too as were the spanish conquistators that invaded south american.

But wasn't the Spanish Conquistadors received as the "return" of the Gods

Originally posted by LUXUS

Originally posted by votan
the founding fathers of the usa were african too as were the spanish conquistators that invaded south american.

But wasn't the Spanish Conquistadors received as the "return" of the Gods

Luxus do you have something intelligent pro or con to add??

Carthage was in Africa, what is the point of this thread?
Phoenicians mated with the natives when they settled there.
So did Spanish explorers wherever they dropped anchor.
I fully expect you to start threads on how Chinese are African too.

Originally posted by votan
the founding fathers of the usa were african too as were the spanish conquistators that invaded south american.

Wow this is like karaoke.
You make a request and he comes up with politically correct artwork made to order.

Originally posted by TinfoilTP
Carthage was in Africa, what is the point of this thread?
Phoenicians mated with the natives when they settled there.
So did Spanish explorers wherever they dropped anchor.
I fully expect you to start threads on how Chinese are African too.

If you scroll back up to the opening of this thread I explained why it stems from a prior conversation in another thread www.abovetopsecret.com... < here I was asked if I considered the Carthaginians as Africans my answer was yes,Luxus then introduced the term Caucasians into the discussion,not wanting to detract further from the original post I broached this topic of the Carthaginian origins here, If I open a thread on China it would be of African migration to China and other parts of Asia post OOA migrations which took many forms as traders diplomats soldiers religious figures and slaves, not to be confused with Black Asian/Pacific populations.

Ming Dynasty African Trader in China.

Axumite soldier turned King India.

But not for nothing I am intrigued how upset some folks get when black folks start talking about African involvement in lands above and beyond the Sahara not necessarily related to the issue of slavery,I have seen threads started here by others who placed Europeans or White folks all over the place including from OUTER SPACE!! and that is seen as legit normal inquiry btw everything I posted can be sourced.

Originally posted by TinfoilTP

Originally posted by votan
the founding fathers of the usa were african too as were the spanish conquistators that invaded south american.

Wow this is like karaoke.
You make a request and he comes up with politically correct artwork made to order.

Nothing P.C about it make some uninformed statement and yes I can put the slap down on you real quick because neither he nor you thought deeply about what you post before posting.

Originally posted by Spider879

Originally posted by TinfoilTP

Originally posted by votan
the founding fathers of the usa were african too as were the spanish conquistators that invaded south american.

Wow this is like karaoke.
You make a request and he comes up with politically correct artwork made to order.

Nothing P.C about it make some uninformed statement and yes I can put the slap down on you real quick because neither he nor you thought deeply about what you post before posting.

edit on 6-8-2013 by Spider879 because: just because

None of those paintings you posted look authentic to the periods at all.

The dark skinned Nubian peoples that had definite importance in Egypt in the 7th-8th centuries BC were not the same as the Sub-Saharan Black races. The facial features, hair, and societal development were all quite different from those of the sub-Saharan races.

Mitochondrial DNA testing has been done on some ancient Meroe Nubia samples, and the incidence of specific markers of most Sub-Saharan populations is present at less than half the expected level. These samples from the Meroe period are about 500 years after the time of the Nubian Pharoahs of Egypt.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

All the coins and jewelry and history of Carthage suggests they were Phoenician/Hebrew, probably related to ancient Greeks, and no definite evidence of Nubian (and certainly not Sub-Saharan) influence. Carthage was founded from the sea at least a century before Piye became the first of the Nubian Pharoahs. The people present when Queen Dido founded Carthage were likely very similar to The Berbers of today, less the Arab genetic influence.

reply to post by Spider879




Hey since you are using the African plate as 'producer of people who African' have you looked at where the African plate goes in the north?



Yeah much of Sicily is African too so you can claim the Mafia as being African, also when the Normans conquered Sicily they too became African....so that means, yes when the other Normans captured England all of England became African too.....

Heck when Rome conquered Carthage and Numidia they became African...hey and the Adria plate which makes up the Adriatic and parts of Italy was once/is part of the African plate and is still attached, therefore parts of Italy - besides Sicily are African too. Might as well claim Rome as African, certainly Venice.

Not to worry Spider the above isn't serious....but heck why not go for he gold?

Originally posted by Spider879

Originally posted by TinfoilTP
Carthage was in Africa, what is the point of this thread?
Phoenicians mated with the natives when they settled there.
So did Spanish explorers wherever they dropped anchor.
I fully expect you to start threads on how Chinese are African too.

If you scroll back up to the opening of this thread I explained why it stems from a prior conversation in another thread www.abovetopsecret.com... < here I was asked if I considered the Carthaginians as Africans my answer was yes,Luxus then introduced the term Caucasians into the discussion,not wanting to detract further from the original post I broached this topic of the Carthaginian origins here, If I open a thread on China it would be of African migration to China and other parts of Asia post OOA migrations which took many forms as traders diplomats soldiers religious figures and slaves, not to be confused with Black Asian/Pacific populations.

Ming Dynasty African Trader in China.

Axumite soldier turned King India.

But not for nothing I am intrigued how upset some folks get when black folks start talking about African involvement in lands above and beyond the Sahara not necessarily related to the issue of slavery,I have seen threads started here by others who placed Europeans or White folks all over the place including from OUTER SPACE!! and that is seen as legit normal inquiry btw everything I posted can be sourced.

edit on 5-8-2013 by Spider879 because: fix

Oh really! so you thread was not about race before I said mentioned "Caucasian", which I didnt do BTW, I suggested that one should do a google image search for Carthaginian coins, you yourself know that they depict Caucasians and thats what stung you perhaps ....your threads are all the same and all about the same subject, basically your here to blow your trumpet about what black people did ie you have an obsession with your colour and it comes through in all your threads!

Originally posted by LUXUS

Originally posted by Spider879

Originally posted by TinfoilTP
Carthage was in Africa, what is the point of this thread?
Phoenicians mated with the natives when they settled there.
So did Spanish explorers wherever they dropped anchor.
I fully expect you to start threads on how Chinese are African too.

If you scroll back up to the opening of this thread I explained why it stems from a prior conversation in another thread www.abovetopsecret.com... < here I was asked if I considered the Carthaginians as Africans my answer was yes,Luxus then introduced the term Caucasians into the discussion,not wanting to detract further from the original post I broached this topic of the Carthaginian origins here, If I open a thread on China it would be of African migration to China and other parts of Asia post OOA migrations which took many forms as traders diplomats soldiers religious figures and slaves, not to be confused with Black Asian/Pacific populations.

Ming Dynasty African Trader in China.

Axumite soldier turned King India.

But not for nothing I am intrigued how upset some folks get when black folks start talking about African involvement in lands above and beyond the Sahara not necessarily related to the issue of slavery,I have seen threads started here by others who placed Europeans or White folks all over the place including from OUTER SPACE!! and that is seen as legit normal inquiry btw everything I posted can be sourced.

edit on 5-8-2013 by Spider879 because: fix

Oh really! so you thread was not about race before I said mentioned "Caucasian", which I didnt do BTW, I suggested that one should do a google image search for Carthaginian coins, you yourself know that they depict Caucasians and thats what stung you perhaps ....your threads are all the same and all about the same subject, basically your here to blow your trumpet about what black people did ie you have an obsession with your colour and it comes through in all your threads!

edit on 6-8-2013 by LUXUS because: (no reason given)

Anyone can link back to the other thread I mentioned nothing about race but you mentioned Caucasians,my obsession is not about color per say but about what's unknown about Africans and the many different rolls they played in the world I am speaking to a fellow American that didn't even know who the heck Booker T. Washington was.

Originally posted by TinfoilTP

Originally posted by Spider879

Originally posted by TinfoilTP

Originally posted by votan
the founding fathers of the usa were african too as were the spanish conquistators that invaded south american.

Wow this is like karaoke.
You make a request and he comes up with politically correct artwork made to order.

Nothing P.C about it make some uninformed statement and yes I can put the slap down on you real quick because neither he nor you thought deeply about what you post before posting.

edit on 6-8-2013 by Spider879 because: just because

None of those paintings you posted look authentic to the periods at all.

Really?? have you visited the Asian Museum in San Francisco??

Juan Garrido (left) (Diego Duran, Historia de las Indias de Nueve Espana e Islas de la Tierra Firme, 1581)