WSJ : Rise of the Warrior Cop

Today seems to be a slow day on ATS, so I would like to raise the steaks in a dissussion that many my want to take a nice juicy bite into.
I would love to hear the pros and cons on this issue.
Because I see no need for the using military weapons and tactics for domestic policing.
There is no villan or foe big enough nor as well armed to justify as our police, except the general public.
With the general public, we are so well armed the numbers in favor of the public against the police are 79 to 1.


online.wsj.com...

Everyone talked about this 'national police force' that Obama was going to put in place, guess what?
Its here

Reply to post by HomerinNC

The feds have been pumping funds and training long before Obama.

Police militarization by the feds has been in progress for decades.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Along this same line here's a blog I saw about a year and a half ago that I don't think I've seen posted here.


The Rise of the Praetorian Class

Paradoxically, for reasons I’ll touch on momentarily, the allegiance of this enforcement branch belongs to neither the Political Class whom they serve nor the Economic Class whom they “service.” In time, their level of influence grows to the point in which they become a class of their own. They are the Praetorian Class.

It's a pretty interesting read.

I am extremely concerned about the militarization of law enforcement in the US. I am particularly concerned about local law enforcement agencies being able to fund themselves by seizures and federal grants without the need to go to the local elected officials to implement policy.

Man!



To hell with the Federales!


It would be cheaper to let the public police itself.




I say put the cowboys back on the streets.
They had much better manners than the current Gestapo.






And if you make the American cowboy take a class and buy a hat
you make money off of the solution. Oh, wait, they vilified Pancho Villa
for saying something similar to that. I'm a be a quiet sheep now and stand aside.


Mike Grouchy

Originally posted by jefwane
Along this same line here's a blog I saw about a year and a half ago that I don't think I've seen posted here.


The Rise of the Praetorian Class

Paradoxically, for reasons I’ll touch on momentarily, the allegiance of this enforcement branch belongs to neither the Political Class whom they serve nor the Economic Class whom they “service.” In time, their level of influence grows to the point in which they become a class of their own. They are the Praetorian Class.

It's a pretty interesting read.

I am extremely concerned about the militarization of law enforcement in the US. I am particularly concerned about local law enforcement agencies being able to fund themselves by seizures and federal grants without the need to go to the local elected officials to implement policy.

I have a photo copy of an article written in the local paper in the early 70s, were the writer, a local with a regular column is questioning the feds use of money to influence the local police force. That was 40 years ago. He asked the same question you just asked.

While I am respectful of your opinion I disagree.
Crimes and criminals are not static. They are not the same scenario every time and certain crimes call for specific tactics.

In 1995 a person went crazy in the town I grew up in, ambushed and killed two cops+seriously wounded another and then barricaded herself in the house . Contributing to that horrible day was the fact that the cops who responded initially were not trained in a sufficient tactical manner to respond. It turns out that the criminal was listening to the scanner and knew the cops were coming to serve her with a warrant. When they arrived on site and knocked on the door she opened up and fired on them.

Lets assume it's a SWAT team or a tactical assault team that would have shown up at that house to serve the warrant. They would have had the proper gear and proper training and chances are the outcome would have been different.

As much as people here on ATS, not the OP, refuse to believe that their are crazy/bad/evil people in the world other than the US Govt, they are real and they do horrible things that require specialized skills . I am glad their are "warrior cops " as you call them to deal with specific situations.

Reply to post by opethPA

Its one thing to have a swat type team available. Its an entirely different thing to stockpile a fleet of armored vehicles, heavy weapons and then use them to perform the most mundane tasks daily.

We dont even need to get into the abuse of "no knock" tactics do we? The whole "safety" argument kind of flies out the window when you consider cases like the flashbanged teen while.looking for some guy who made a post on a forum and later when the cops finally got.the right address they approached the situation which not moments earlier required a tactical assault on some girl watching TV by simply knocking on the door of this violent and dangerous criminal with a plain clothes officer.

That tells me that not even the cops believe their own # and paranoid fantasies.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
Reply to post by opethPA

 

Its one thing to have a swat type team available. Its an entirely different thing to stockpile a fleet of armored vehicles, heavy weapons and then use them to perform the most mundane tasks daily.

We dont even need to get into the abuse of "no knock" tactics do we? The whole "safety" argument kind of flies out the window when you consider cases like the flashbanged teen while.looking for some guy who made a post on a forum and later when the cops finally got.the right address they approached the situation which not moments earlier required a tactical assault on some girl watching TV by simply knocking on the door of this violent and dangerous criminal with a plain clothes officer.

That tells me that not even the cops believe their own # and paranoid fantasies.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

If you want to say to me that using a SWAT team to pull over speeding people or arresting a shoplifter is overkill I can agree to that.

If you want to say to me using a SWAT team or a tactically trained and geared force to serve a warrant on someone in a house where the variables are unknown is not justified then I don't agree with that.

Their are bad people in the world. They do bad things and usually they do them in a random and chaotic manner. It's not as cut and dried as the anti-police group of ATS want to make it.

Again the average officer looking like a soldier doesn't make sense unless they are dealing with a situation that requires that.

My OP is about the over armament of our local police and the over zealous approach of many in law enforcement
against the public.
And the colateral damage of innocent people even old people and children. Heck, when cops open fire they even kill cops.
We are not talking about cops walking a beat twirling a baton, we are talking about trigger happy thugs patroling our neighbor hoods.
The local police are overy armed, though, I would agree every situation is different, but I clearly don't see the need for every American city and town P.D. to have an APC, a mobile water cannon more than one helicopter, every officer having a shot gun and a full auto rifle plus a pistol.
If the crimanal activity is that bad , we have a big problem and the public is clearly left out of the loop
And now they want drones ?
.

What is the work around for not using the military against the public? Make the police into a pseudo-military force that can provide a similar level a functionality required to handle the public. We are seeing glimpses of the transformation.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by jefwane
Along this same line here's a blog I saw about a year and a half ago that I don't think I've seen posted here.


The Rise of the Praetorian Class

Paradoxically, for reasons I’ll touch on momentarily, the allegiance of this enforcement branch belongs to neither the Political Class whom they serve nor the Economic Class whom they “service.” In time, their level of influence grows to the point in which they become a class of their own. They are the Praetorian Class.

It's a pretty interesting read.

I am extremely concerned about the militarization of law enforcement in the US. I am particularly concerned about local law enforcement agencies being able to fund themselves by seizures and federal grants without the need to go to the local elected officials to implement policy.

I have a photo copy of an article written in the local paper in the early 70s, were the writer, a local with a regular column is questioning the feds use of money to influence the local police force. That was 40 years ago. He asked the same question you just asked.

Nice and I believe it. The WSJ article actually touches on the debates that were surrounding the formation of SWAT teams and policies in the 70's so really, we are still facing those same issues from the 70's but 40 years later with greater technology and frequencies of SWAT teams. While the same concerns would likely to be expressed in both the 70's and the present, the difference would be both extremity and improvement of the tools provided (think of the "tanks" seen in Boston or some of the toys dragged out in Oakland during Occupy) and the increase in SWAT like teams in agencies across the board in areas that one would simply not imagine them to be.

A number of federal agencies also now have their own SWAT teams, including the Fish & Wildlife Service, NASA and the Department of the Interior. In 2011, the Department of Education's SWAT team bungled a raid on a woman who was initially reported to be under investigation for not paying her student loans, though the agency later said she was suspected of defrauding the federal student loan program.

Why the devil does the Dept. of Education need a SWAT team? Fish and Wildlife is somewhat understandable as growing operations could exist in outlying areas but wouldn't that be the role for the DEA to fill typically? NASA? A while back, I talked to a guy who worked for a defense contractor who stated that the DoD budget wasn't just what was on paper but was spread throughout the entire federal government. I thought it was an interesting statement that he made at the time and with this article, I see that there very well may have been some truth to it as agencies that I would not have expected to have a militarized police force have them according to this article in the WSJ. Questions that I have is when did that occur and is it due to DHS?

In general i don't see the need to have every cop armed like a SWAT member every time they go on the beat.

however...

There is a need to have units like HRT who use military style weapons and tactics just like there is a need for SWAT units.

But they should only be used when needed and not as part of normal policing.

My brother was a cop just outside Atlanta in the '70s... Marietta.
My step-daughter just graduated from a course in Ohio to be a cop.

We need GOOD cops. We have always had them... and we know that no one is perfect so we expect exceptions to the 'protect and serve' thing.

But overall? Today's police look more like militia and less like the guys in blue I grew up with. The next question is whether they serve the people, or the state. Laws need to be enforced... but we need smart cops who know the difference between law and tyranny.

I know the danger in the next word... but submit it nevertheless...

Pray.

reply to post by jefwane


As much as the ex-KGB is in control of Today's Russia the CIA has been for decades in control of the US, thinking otherwise would be wishful-thinking the best ways to prepare for the future is to control it.

Originally posted by redoubt
But overall? Today's police look more like militia

Sounds like the Founder's fantasy, but the only difference is it's not really a people's militia if it has special interests on it's mind.

The militarization of the police is not news. It's been going on for decades. My father was a police officer for about 15 years when he saw what was about to happen with the "federalization" (as he called it) of local police departments. He served out another 5 years and kept his mouth shut so he could get his pension and quietly exited law enforcement. Not coincidentally, this is about the time the whole Rex 84 thing broke. The police began training recruits to view people who knew their "rights under the Constitution" as terrorists long before the "War on Terror". They purposely recruit sociopaths because that kind of person finds the domination of other people psychologically fulfilling. This is what they want, because they are part of an agenda.

People get mad at me when I say I hate cops. Well, the cops hate us. I guarantee it, even if they themselves don't realize it or would characterize it as such. They view the common man with utter contempt and have been armed to the teeth. What do you think is going to happen? We'd all like to believe that, when the SHTF, the "good cops" won't follow sadistic orders from their superiors. Sorry to say it... there aren't any good cops. Good people are not hired by law enforcement agencies anymore. The reason for that is plainly apparent to anyone paying attention.

Originally posted by OLD HIPPY DUDE
My OP is about the over armament of our local police and the over zealous approach of many in law enforcement
against the public.
And the colateral damage of innocent people even old people and children. Heck, when cops open fire they even kill cops.
We are not talking about cops walking a beat twirling a baton, we are talking about trigger happy thugs patroling our neighbor hoods.
The local police are overy armed, though, I would agree every situation is different, but I clearly don't see the need for every American city and town P.D. to have an APC, a mobile water cannon more than one helicopter, every officer having a shot gun and a full auto rifle plus a pistol.
If the crimanal activity is that bad , we have a big problem and the public is clearly left out of the loop
And now they want drones ?
.

edit on 21-7-2013 by OLD HIPPY DUDE because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-7-2013 by OLD HIPPY DUDE because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-7-2013 by OLD HIPPY DUDE because: (no reason given)

First of all not every city has a helicopter or armored personnel carrier. A lot of towns at best have an old bread truck with a bit of armoring for delivering officers close to the scene. Many still rely on the Sheriff's department for such things. Plus, I have never seen or met an officer that carried an automatic rifle. Plus, many BLET programs have discontinued their shotgun courses because they are rarely used outside of the SWAT team .

Yes there are some towns that go overboard. There is an issue with no knock warrants. However, what many fail to realize is the fact that police encounters are down on average according to the DOJ. The NYPD released numbers that showed out of millions and millions of calls for service and police initiated actions only a couple hundred resulted in a weapon being fired by an officer. In other words, the number was statistically minuscule at best.

The average officer doesn't twirl a baton and walk around. Many are armed with semi-auto pistols that hold 15 rounds, mace, an ASP baton, and maybe a taser. Now go look at the fire power that the gangs regularly flaunt in their videos. It isn't uncommon to see gang members with "Hell Pup" pistols. That is an AK-47 with no stock and a 10 inch barrel. It isn't uncommon to run across gang members with shotguns chopped of small enough to fit under a long coat. Are most crimes committed with handguns? Yes they are. That doesn't mean that this isn't the night one acts out with something much worse. Still, the average officer often finds himself out gunned.

If I was going to raid a place and knew the occupant was a confirmed Crip with a history of assault, drugs, weapons, and RDO charges, I would want a SWAT team. Many of the younger generation openly say that they would rather go out in a gun battle instead of just being arrested. They feel marginalized by society, powerless, and invisible. To them it is a way to die a hero or martyr for other gang bangers to come. It is their only chance at immortality in their eyes.

Another thing that the article skips over is the continuing push for cops to become more service oriented. Their is a push in the state of NC to get officers CIT trained. That is special Crisis Intervention Team training that teaches officers to recognize and understand the warning signs of mental illness and substance abuse. It is designed to help officers better serve those populations while diverting people from jail and in to places that help them.

In recent years the push for training in service excellence, verbal judo, non violent crisis intervention, and community policing has been growing. There are issues that need to be discussed in regards to the proper time for no knock warrants and Swat Teams. However, as usual the media only picks and choses that which it can exploit for ratings and buys. They ignore the great work that many officers do on a daily basis.

You don't hear the story about the Raleigh, NC bike officer that was awarded his own day by the Mayor when he decided to retire. He was such a part of that community that business owners and residents cried when he retired. They wrote about him in the local news paper. They credited the service he did in that community with helping return it to former glory because people felt safer. They felt they could trust him to be a friend an to handle things properly. He was a shining example of service. The WSJ will never write about him or his kind. The Post will never write of his kind. They will occasionally highlight a cop giving away boots as if it is an anomaly. They won't telll you about the cop that works a second job as a social worker at the local homeless shelter.

Originally posted by jefwane
Along this same line here's a blog I saw about a year and a half ago that I don't think I've seen posted here.


The Rise of the Praetorian Class

Paradoxically, for reasons I’ll touch on momentarily, the allegiance of this enforcement branch belongs to neither the Political Class whom they serve nor the Economic Class whom they “service.” In time, their level of influence grows to the point in which they become a class of their own. They are the Praetorian Class.

It's a pretty interesting read.

I am extremely concerned about the militarization of law enforcement in the US. I am particularly concerned about local law enforcement agencies being able to fund themselves by seizures and federal grants without the need to go to the local elected officials to implement policy.

I read through that and have shared it - it was a very interesting read. If nothing else it was an interesting perspective that one can quickly see the parallels of.