humanity punished in eternal hell? Theology

reply to post by Rex282

The book of Revelation is written in symbols and is about one thing .The unveiling of Yahoshua(God IS salvation) .Yahoshua is not returning as the many are called religious believe he is.Yahoshua has already returned and is here and not in human form.I'll say it again(and you won't hear)Revelation is symbolic NONE of it is predictions of past present or future historical events.

You must be ignoring the rest of the Bible too.

John 14:2-3

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

reply to post by Rex282

The salvation of all is VERY clearly in the scriptures but the religious mind cannot know or even believe it.If you disapprove of the scriptures which clearly states over and over Yahoshuas character and that he is the savior of ALL men then you cannot believe the scriptures and you will not even believe if a man(Yahoshua) rises from the dead.You have fulfilled in yourself the parable of the rich man and Lazarus .

Wait, aren't you the one who keeps blasting against scripture and those who read it? Aren't you the one who always says that "life" can't be found in the scriptures? I say you can, as long as you're reading it with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Those who believe in the scriptures and the Holy Spirit are going to be the only ones who truly understand them.

reply to post by Deetermined


This is the typical double talk to justify God has given us a will FREE of cause.Without knowing what you said you acknowledged it is Gods will that causes all things not mans.Which means mans will is not ever free of Gods will.

Yours(and the many) concept of will is that God has given you a will to freely make choices.That is not true and as I said is not in the scriptures at all and is impossible with a sovereign God.Mans will is the mechanism which they choose with however NONE of mans choices are free of causation which God is the originator /creator of all causes.I don't blame you for not perceiving this.It is impossible to because it's axiomatic.As long as you don't know God you can only believe he has given you free will to make free choices.

I know the next typical line of reasoning now is he "allows".He knows what is going to happen so Gods "permissive" will allows it and makes it work with is will.Absolute rubbish,false and ludicrous.God is not subject to mans will in any way.Man is so self absorbed they think God is submissive to them and their foolish whims because they cannot see even the smallest bit of the whole picture and it's precisely why God won't let them.Foolish men make very foolish choices ALL of the time.

Yahoshua clearly told the disciples "you did not chose me.. I have chosen you".The religious doctrine of "accepting" Yahoshua as savior is also a false doctrine of men and is not in the scriptures.You'd think being so consistently wrong about the basics would be a sign but they are blind.God will choose All mankind to be saved.First they are called then chosen all in their own order.In this age the next and the next.It is 100% initiated and carried out by God.It is not a "free" choice to be made.

The majority of mankind has it all backwards because they are so immature they want a part of their salvation.They think THEY choose God or life or whatever they worship(all is religion)Where the scriptures says NO man can come to God unless the father draws(in the Greek it means drags) them.If you want to call that force then go ahead.That is Gods way.If your think you know better you are very wrong.

If I had free will and had a choice of following "my will" or Gods I'd choose Gods every time.That's a no brainer.Gods will is perfect.Mans free will is not.If all men had free will the world would be complete cacophonous chaos with a world full of little gods free willying against each other and especially God.

The only being that has a will free of causation is the creator God.The valley of the shadow of death has blinded man to believe THEY are God.That THEY are in control of their destiny and have freely chosen to follow God or not...when the fact is the many are called have done no such thing.They don't even know God in the least.They are on the wide path of destruction.They worship religion not God.

They say Lord, Lord didn't we do great works in your name yet he will(and is saying) I never knew you.They are deceived by their self will.That is the state of being in sin..imperfection....not knowing God.The only way to know God is if God reveals himself.He is not words in a book the religious worship.He speaks them to whom he wants to hear them.Peter did not search the scriptures to deduce Yahoshua was the Son of God the Christ the father REVEALED it to him.

You are very mistaken of what I know of the scriptures.It is so far beyond your perception it is not even comprehensible to you.You speak as a fool when you accuse me.I don't judge you.In one age you will come to the knowledge of the truth just not this one.God has caused a strong delusion that you would believe the lies of religion.Ever learning but never coming to know God.

The disciples learned of their folly.It didn't happen overnight or even in years.Salvation is a process and the mandatory first step is knowing God is the sovereign of ALL.God is the cause of everything.God is causing ALL things to happen according to his will and purposes and NONE of them are being caused by mans mythical free will.

You and the many will continue to twist the scriptures to your doctrines of men and both will fall into the ditch as the blind leading the blind.Paul had to be physically blinded and it took 13 years for God to just begin to cleanse him of religion.Yet Paul eventually understood very well that God is the sovereign.That is what he could not tell of what he saw in his "third heaven" experience it.Because no one can know it until they experience it by entering in.It is not teachable...especially to the unteachable and hard of heart self willed.God makes their heart harder just like Pharaohs until it is broken...and every mans will ....will be broken and they will know how wrong they were.That is Gods mercy on everyone.The savior of ALL mankind.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Rex282

 

The salvation of all is VERY clearly in the scriptures but the religious mind cannot know or even believe it.If you disapprove of the scriptures which clearly states over and over Yahoshuas character and that he is the savior of ALL men then you cannot believe the scriptures and you will not even believe if a man(Yahoshua) rises from the dead.You have fulfilled in yourself the parable of the rich man and Lazarus .

Wait, aren't you the one who keeps blasting against scripture and those who read it? Aren't you the one who always says that "life" can't be found in the scriptures? I say you can, as long as you're reading it with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Those who believe in the scriptures and the Holy Spirit are going to be the only ones who truly understand them.

You speak as a fool.I didn't say it

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me"

You have proven again you worship the scriptures and not Yahoshua ( Gods salvation of ALL) whom they are written of as a witness.Belief is not knowing.I know and have read the scriptures.You cannot hear what the scriptures say because you are deaf.

So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had BELIEVED Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will KNOW the truth, and the truth will make you free."

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

reply to post by Rex282

. . . clearly told the disciples "you did not chose me.. I have chosen you".The religious doctrine of "accepting" Yahoshua as savior is also a false doctrine of men and is not in the scriptures.You'd think being so consistently wrong about the basics would be a sign but they are blind.God will choose All mankind to be saved.First they are called then chosen all in their own order.In this age the next and the next.It is 100% initiated and carried out by God.It is not a "free" choice to be made.

The verse being partially quoted above is
John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
(2011 NIV)
If you read the verse before it, you see that Jesus is talking to his twelve disciples, and if you look at the preceding chapter, you see this is a continuation of a long discourse, a private conversation, his farewell speech, where in verse 22 one of the disciples asks, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”.
So what Jesus is saying about his "choosing" is specific to those few people who he is calling his "friends", those who have been given direct knowledge of Jesus' relationship with God. He explains why he has chosen them, which is that they will have that same sort of relationship, to end up with similar abilities, ones that will be necessary when he is gone and they are left with the responsibility of forming the foundation of the church.

The majority of mankind has it all backwards because they are so immature they want a part of their salvation.They think THEY choose God or life or whatever they worship(all is religion)Where the scriptures says NO man can come to God unless the father draws(in the Greek it means drags) them.If you want to call that force then go ahead.That is Gods way.If your think you know better you are very wrong.

The verse being partially quoted above is
John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day
(2011 NIV)
If you read the verse before it, you see that Jesus is responding to the grumbling in the audience who took exception to his claim that he was "sent down from heaven".
So Jesus is backing it up by saying that the very fact that people were being drawn to him was proof that he had been sent by God.
Jesus was not giving a theological lecture on the mechanism of salvation other than to say that his authority is derived directly from God, even playing the role of God Himself in the expected "Day of the Lord".

reply to post by Rex282

You are very mistaken of what I know of the scriptures.

Likewise, as I don't believe you understand them. Jesus spoke about the importance of scripture, considering that he said he came to fulfill all that was written about him in the Old Testament. He quoted 60+ verses from 24 books of the Old Testament during the time he was here.

In one age you will come to the knowledge of the truth just not this one.God has caused a strong delusion that you would believe the lies of religion.Ever learning but never coming to know God.

The disciples learned of their folly.It didn't happen overnight or even in years.Salvation is a process and the mandatory first step is knowing God is the sovereign of ALL.

I don't need religion to understand what I read in the Bible. I only need the Holy Spirit. The Bible does not say that salvation is a continual process of reincarnation, if that's what you're getting at.

You and the many will continue to twist the scriptures to your doctrines of men and both will fall into the ditch as the blind leading the blind.

By the way, where do you get your doctrine? I'm trying to understand our differences and where your information is coming from.

Yet Paul eventually understood very well that God is the sovereign.That is what he could not tell of what he saw in his "third heaven" experience it.Because no one can know it until they experience it by entering in.It is not teachable...especially to the unteachable and hard of heart self willed.

I've seen you bash scripture and I've seen you bash "New Age" religion and mysticism. So, where do you fit in?

Based on your comment above, it definitely sounds like you practice some kind of mysticism to me. Maybe this is where we differ, because God strictly prohibits it. If you knew the Bible, you would know this.

reply to post by Rex282

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me"

You have proven again you worship the scriptures and not Yahoshua ( Gods salvation of ALL) whom they are written of as a witness.Belief is not knowing.I know and have read the scriptures.You cannot hear what the scriptures say because you are deaf.

I don't worship the scriptures. I use them as a guide to understand God. I have a personal relationship with my Savior, which prompts me to want to understand and know him through prayer and scripture, but not through any kind of forbidden mysticism.

So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had BELIEVED Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will KNOW the truth, and the truth will make you free."

What is your definition of "My word"? I think this is where we differ.

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

I agree with that. So, once again, where do you go to seek God/Jesus' words?

reply to post by Deetermined



I learned none of this from a church or a man.I don't follow any religion or creed at all.None of it is mysticism.If anything I am accused of being to scientific which I am also not.

I said nothing of reincarnation as the process of salvation you are reading into what I write.Salvation is an infinite process. The concept of eternal time is not in the scriptures and is a misnomer.There is no such thing.However infinity is true.We can observe it in nature in a fractal and the expanding universe.Simply put salvation is growth.That is Gods whole being.Spirit..Life... to make things LIVE and grow not die.

I have no doctrine of my own.All I know is what I "hear" from the father.That is all ANYONE can hear.Everything else is religion (belief).As Yahoshua said the scriptures are a witness ...a testimony of him.As Paul said by the inspiration of spirit wrote "the letter of the law kills spirit is life".

The scriptures are milk for the immature to ONLY lead them to The Truth which is communion with God...hearing and doing.They are not THE TRUTH to be worshipped or to be continually studied.They only produce self righteous religion.Paul knew of this VERY well.God is not inside those words written in stone or ink.Yes the scriptures cannot be broken because they are true however they are not THE Truth...Yahoshua is The Truth.The LIVING word of God.

Yahoshua clearly stated his words are SPIRIT and Truth.He never instructed anyone to study the scriptures to Know The Truth.In fact he gave no method of religion at all.Every thing he said was in effect a command..a Thus SAYS the Lord.

He was saying what things were not how to "learn" to know him.God is the initiator of ALL things. When Yahoshua said repent he was saying "change" as a commandment not something you practice to be pious.Those that "hear" his words have no choice but to do what he said...and that is a very good thing.He isn't asking us to do anything ...he is commanding what WILL happen.

Religion is just the opposite.It "makes" demands ..rules ..doctrines of commandments.It is the letter of the law that kills.Do do this, don't do that.God's "word" doesn't say that.He commands things to BE..and then they ARE.It is what John said THIS is love.When we do his commandments and they aren't burdensome.He wasn't saying follow the "law" he was saying it is what HAPPENS when you hear the Living word of God.

and yes.... it is irony.He has commanded the many are called to be"religious"....and religion leads to death.It is the wide path of destruction and many follow it.ALL must follow it.All is religion.THEN comes the narrow path of HEARING...and few follow it.It leads to communion.ALL is being caused by God.All will take the narrow path eventually however only few in this age(realm of existence and fewer than many think).Most will take it in later ages(there are many).They must first pass through the Lake of Fire to burn away unrighteousness...religion.

This is all in the scriptures but the deaf cannot hear it.God is causing the deafness.And when it is heard it is knowing and is fulfilled.Then they won't be deaf.This is what Yahoshua meant in the parable of the soils and the seed.

The bottom line for your questions is.The scriptures are only a witness to THE Truth.Yahoshua is the Living word of God not the written.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Yes ...Yahoshua told his DISCIPLES he has chosen THEM.So why do folks think THEY can choose God.Are they greater than the master.They believe God chooses a few men but ANYONE can choose God.

Your cults doctrine of the "church" is false.They are at best "a" church....A group of people...nothing more. NOT the called OUT ones... the chosen as you have read correctly ..are the the apostles. They are the ONLY called out ones.That is the foundation because the father revealed himself to them and that is what Yahoshua said.

You believe the core doctrine of The Roman Catholic Church that a special man or a group of people are the "true foundation" and that is not what Yahoshua said at all.He said the REVELATION from the FATHER was the rock the "called out' ones would be "built" on.

Yahoshua never said anything about an organization or group of people being the foundation.There was already a corrupt one in place and it has been replaced by an even more corrupt one that is splintered into the "only church".You are very mistaken to believe there is a "church" organization that is Gods chosen people.That is what the Jews believe and The RCC and ....every church!!!....completely false.

The called out ones FOUNDATION is and HOW they "communion" with God .... revelation!The disciples were the 1st fruits.The 1st to mature in a relationship with the LIVING God.It didn't just "happen" at Pentecost.Peter was still a knuckle head for years.Paul was too All of them were.Salvation is an infinite process.This foolishness of religion is "playing" church..like man is in control.All they have to do is choose God say a prayer study the Bible and join the "only right"church"......the epitome of foolishness.

God chooses who will hear and what and how they will hear.NO ONE is special.The apostles were the dregs of the earth.God changed them because he chose them.They are uniquely the only ones to ever lived that have been given that privilege and based solely on God not their merits.They were not spiritually superior...quite the opposite.

God has blinded the world with religion.Everything is the opposite of what the religious mind believes.It is in enmity with God.You will continue to study the scriptures and unrighteously "divide" the word.That is what the many are called ...do.However it is NOT knowing God in the least.Only God chooses and causes those that hear to know him and it is NOT through a church or religion or any method of man.

reply to post by Rex282

. . . never said anything about an organization or group of people being the foundation.

So then you think that Jesus chose twelve disciples for no reason other than to just choose them to show that he can?

The called out ones . . .

If you think that is the definition of an Apostle, then you have that wrong, they are the ones sent out.

God has blinded the world with religion.

People were blinded to the Gospel by the temple cult religion that the Jews had made into a god.

I don't see any kind of message in your posts other than to belittle other people who don't think exactly like you do. I would like to know, like Deetermined asked earlier, what is your source of inspiration that gives you this sense of superiority.
If you think everyone is saved, and God does it, then why are you even talking about it, unless you are getting some sort of high from it, that you know, and no one else does. One of the giveaways is the use of a name other than Jesus, for Jesus, as if speaking the Syrian language gives you special knowledge, which is a cult trick to trap people who want to feel smarter than everyone else.

reply to post by Rex282

They must first pass through the Lake of Fire to burn away unrighteousness...

Well that is funny then, that Revelation didn't mention anyone ever coming out of the lake of fire.

First of all, hell is a creation of the mind. What does that mean? When people die, if their mind is engrossed with death consciousness (thoughts of extreme hatred, vengeance, sad, disgust, so forth), they will see hell. You see, everything is made from consciousness. The planet Earth in physical existence was made from consciousness. When your consciousness or mind is in a state of turmoil, you will bring negative things into your life, either it be while you're still alive in the flesh or died a physical death. When you mind is in state of love and peace with the mindset of God, you will see Paradise or even Heaven itself. So is hell eternal? Well, if you're talking about the place, it will always be there for people who have death consciousness. But if you end up in hell, you can still get out of it if you raise your consciousness. Then, you will see a higher place such as Paradise.

However, people who have death consciousness have a very, very hard time letting go of it. However, there is hope for everybody. Please understand that God is not there to punish anybody. You punish yourself by staying in negativity. So seek the Kingdom of Heaven that is within you. It is not anywhere else but inside of you--your consciousness.

......So then you think that Jesus chose twelve disciples for no reason other than to just choose them to show that he can........

That is you speaking.That is your stock response not mine.I didn't say that at all.You are the one twists words and statements not me.


........People were blinded to the Gospel by the temple cult religion that the Jews had made into a god.........

I am very aware of what apostle means .You assume you know more than others.It is you that is a know it all that knows nothing and assumes everyone is like you.

.........I don't see any kind of message in your posts other than to belittle other people who don't think exactly like you do.........

You have described yourself perfectly.I don't judge anyone.I am only stating what I hear and you are deaf to it.I don't blame or condemn you for it or belittle you... it is just fact


............. I would like to know, like Deetermined asked earlier, what is your source of inspiration that gives you this sense of superiority..............

I already told him and you but you can't hear.You only understand religion as a source because you don't know God at all.


...........If you think everyone is saved, and God does it, then why are you even talking about it, unless you are getting some sort of high from it, that you know, and no one else does...........

Because THAT is the Gospel.It is not good news to you because you can't hear it.You believe in your religion.


.............One of the giveaways is the use of a name other than Jesus, for Jesus, as if speaking the Syrian language gives you special knowledge, which is a cult trick to trap people who want to feel smarter than everyone else. .............

You are completely wrong as usual.I don't compel anyone to say or write Yahoshua or any name.Yahoshua (Gods is salvation) is his name clear and simple and you don't know it at all.It is you that believe Jesus is a special name and don't know what it means because of your semantics and religious cultish carnal mind.It is you that are proselytizing false doctrines of men as the words of God and make it mean nothing.It is you that condemn and belittle anyone who doesn't believe as you do.I have no belief to proselytize.

All I am doing is speaking the truth and doing as the place I am speaking in(ATS) motto says... Deny Ignorance All you are doing is nothing but spout religious rhetoric that is meaningless and full of fear and hate.What you think I'm doing doesn't matter to me at all because what you say means nothing.You are the one spreading contentions and false doctrines of lies of religion not me.

I won't be addressing you anymore in this thread because you are a fool asking foolish questions you have no desire to be answered truthfully nor could you understand them.

reply to post by Rex282

Yahoshua clearly stated his words are SPIRIT and Truth.He never instructed anyone to study the scriptures to Know The Truth.In fact he gave no method of religion at all.Every thing he said was in effect a command..a Thus SAYS the Lord.

Here are just a few verses regarding the importance of scripture...

Matthew 21:42
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes.

Matthew 22:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Matthew 26:54
But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Matthew 26:56
But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

Mark 12:10
And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

Mark 12:24
And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Mark 14:49
I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.

Mark 15:28
And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

Luke 4:21
And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luke 24:32
And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

Luke 24:44
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Luke 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

John 5:46-47
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

reply to post by Rex282

I learned none of this from a church or a man.I don't follow any religion or creed at all.None of it is mysticism.If anything I am accused of being to scientific which I am also not.

I'll ask you again, how did you learn your doctrine and how do you go about "listening" to God?

Is this a question you're trying to avoid?

reply to post by Rex282

This is all in the scriptures but the deaf cannot hear it.God is causing the deafness.And when it is heard it is knowing and is fulfilled.Then they won't be deaf.This is what Yahoshua meant in the parable of the soils and the seed.

It sounds like you could use a little Bible study assistance...

Luke 8:9-15

9 His disciples asked him what this parable meant. 10 He said, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that,

“‘though seeing, they may not see;
though hearing, they may not understand."

11 “This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Rex282

 

Yahoshua clearly stated his words are SPIRIT and Truth.He never instructed anyone to study the scriptures to Know The Truth.In fact he gave no method of religion at all.Every thing he said was in effect a command..a Thus SAYS the Lord.

Here are just a few verses regarding the importance of scripture...

exactly.You should read what "I" write not what you "think" I write .I never said the scriptures were not important.Yet you twist my words just as your twist the scriptures to what you want them to say.Yahoshua NEVER told them to search and study the scriptures to know the father or him.He told them what they meant concerning HIM as a witness and they must be fulfilled.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Rex282

 

I learned none of this from a church or a man.I don't follow any religion or creed at all.None of it is mysticism.If anything I am accused of being to scientific which I am also not.

I'll ask you again, how did you learn your doctrine and how do you go about "listening" to God?

Is this a question you're trying to avoid?

This will be the last time I answer you in this thread since you have no desire to hear but only be antagonistic.

I already told you but you can't hear.I got it the only way ANYONE can..... from hearing the Father.You can't hear anything I say because you can't hear the Father or you wouldn't ask the question.You are the one who searches the scriptures thinking that IN them you have life but have failed to come to the Yahoshua whom they are witness of.That couldn't be any clearer but you won't hear it because you think you hear and see.

That is the truth to the preamble to the parable of the soils and the seed.They can't be separated.Those that CAN'T hear or see are the poor soils that produce ZERO fruit.

reply to post by Rex282


I'm trying to get a better understanding of what it is that you are REALLY hearing, because it doesn't sound like the Father to me. For starters, do you hear voices in your head? How do you "hear"? Are they through thoughts? Do you pray? Do you meditate?

reply to post by Rex282

This will be the last time I answer you in this thread since you have no desire to hear but only be antagonistic.

I'm only trying to get some direct answers. I just looked through some of your comments to other people in other threads, and quite frankly, you're more antagonistic than I could ever dream of being.