There Is Something Intrinsically Wrong With America

There Is Something Intrinsically Wrong With America

Hello once again ATS!

As I sit down to begin authoring this thread it is mid-afternoon and I am halfway through a lazy day. A lazy day made possible because I live in a society and a nation that is wealthy and stable enough to allow me to do so. The blessings bestowed upon me, by virtue of where I was born, are countless, substantial, and very much appreciated.

It doesn't hurt that I also happen to live in what I feel to be one of the most naturally beautiful areas on the entire planet – north Georgia. There is so much natural bounty and beauty here as to bring to mind Biblical passages of Eden on occasion. This time of year there is so much green... so much life to be thankful for.

I am truly blessed to live in such a place. A land where there is law, stability, structure, infrastructure, opportunity,and an abundance of resources and wealth.

Make no mistake about it. I love this country. I am a patriot. So for those who saw the title of this thread and grabbed their torches and pitchforks? You're not needed here. There is no blind and trollish America bashing going on. All that is happening here is that a proud American is exercising his First Amendment rights and fulfilling his duty by trying to table a discussion about the things we might improve upon.

Well... Maybe it's not that innocent... Maybe I am actually here to rock the boat and point out that the Emperor has no clothes.

Maybe I am here to have one of those difficult discussions... the ones that hurt us and can draw blood because they cut too close to the bone. A discussion that, in my estimation, is long past due and desperately necessary for the good of this nation and, for that matter, most of the rest of the world as well.

America is broken. It is not the shining beacon of righteousness and democracy that we tend to insist it is. Our once great nation has fallen prey to disease and is currently just a sickly visage of what she once was. She is no longer that beautiful woman who sits, holding the Torch of Freedom in our most famous harbor... she is now a leprous mockery of what she used to be.

I think most of us realize this to be true. We may not phrase it so bluntly and many of us seek to rationalize or point fingers, rather than facing the truth. But I think most of us do understand that things aren't the way they should be. Just watch the partisan bickering that has so dominated our culture as of late and it's easy to see. Most of us do see it.. and most of us are extremely pissed off about it – even if our patriotic sides refuse to let us say so.

It is like some strange allegory from a Harry Potter book.... we all see the dark truth – but nobody seems brave enough to speak its true name.

Maybe we, or our loved ones, served and fought – possibly even died – for this country... and we are filled with a strong desire not to disrespect that sacrifice by criticizing this nation?

Maybe we are afraid of speaking our true feelings out of fear of judgment... or even in fear of being put on some list by our Government itself... A Government of the People, by the People, for the People... The same Government that arbitrarily taxes us into poverty, refuses to answer to our questions, spies upon us, increasingly tells us that it is beyond our control, and continues to mutate into some sort of Orwellian nightmare clone of a totalitarian society – more reminiscent of Germany in 1940 than of America in 1778.

Maybe we are simply brainwashed to react violently to anyone who voices unhappiness or dissent? After all... we're more likely, today, to hear dissent replied to with “If you don't like it here, leave!” than “Sir, while I disagree with your opinion, I will fight and die to preserve your right to express it.”

The catalyst for my train of thought today was a picture that was posted to my FB wall by a fellow ATS member earlier today ( or possibly last night – I'm not at all FB savvy ). I am opting not to share this members name, not knowing if he would prefer to be anonymous or not ( I'll happily give credit if he requests ). The picture is a graphic of a George Carlin quote and as is follows:



While I do understand that the Right considers Carlin to be less than desirable and tends to label him an Anarchist type ne'er do well who spouted Liberal propaganda for a living... I tend to feel that there is a great deal of truth to be found in this quote. A particularly painful truth for me personally as I have spent a great deal of my own time praising the notion of term limits as an answer to the blight of corruption that is so woefully obvious in our Government.

Folks, George was right. In a Government of the People, by the People, for the People – we cannot morally separate ourselves from it. We can not continue to hide behind the “them versus us” rhetoric because the painful and difficult truth is that they are us. While we run around blaming the other party for our woes... or insisting that WE are somehow outside of it all... or screaming that Democracy has failed us... the glaring truth remains the elephant in the room. The Democratic process does work, it is still in effect... and it has created the monster that now haunts us all. We did this. Our forefathers did this. The other party is not to blame. Corporations are not to blame. Secret societies are not to blame. Banks are not to blame. A handful of “NWO” families are not to blame. We are.

That is the long and the short of it.

Sure... any or all of the above may have sought to take undo advantage of situations. We all do this in our own lives, in different ways, on occasion. Morally speaking we can hardly vilify anyone or anything for doing what we let it do. After all, the power does reside within us. We are the authority.

Today we scream and moan about the absolute affront of domestic spying. The truth is that on September 12, 2001 we almost universally demanded it. We demanded to know how such a thing could happen in the modern world. We were shocked to find out that such spying was not already happening.

Today we scream and moan about social programs. The truth of the matter is that our parents and grandparents almost universally demanded these things as the Great Depression ravaged their lives and ripped this nation to the bone and to the brink of collapse. They could not understand why safety nets were not already in place.

Today we scream and moan about Iraq and Afghanistan. Not too many years removed we all wanted Saddam Hussein's head on a pike.

Today we scream and moan about taxes. But we all enjoy the infrastructure and benefits that those taxes afford us.

It goes on and on and on.

It Is Time For Us To Own This

Whenever reasonable discussions get tabled about what is wrong with America and what we might to fix it – it is my experience that the discussion soon totally devolves into partisan bickering. Those who have been indoctrinated into Conservative thinking jump in and begin screaming about Obama. Those indoctrinated into Liberal thought counter with Bush... and there the discussion gets trapped until it atrophies and dies. The only other input seems to come from those who feel a need only to add “I don't like political parties at all – so I blame ALL of you!”

The blame game. Such a sad and counter productive trap. One I am sure that the greedy and morally ambiguous love to death. One that I, myself, am very guilty of having played – time and time again. There seems to be a deep need within humans to remove themselves from any suspicion of guilt... to defend their own honor. There is nothing wrong with any of us wanting to preserve our own pride... to protect our own honor.

But we are fighting about who started the fire as the nation burns down around us. We need to put the fire out before we try to figure out what started it. If it was arson? So be it. But these are concerns for another day. Right now we need to form a bucket brigade and start moving water, lest we wake one day to find that we no longer have a nation – or at least one we might recognize.

We are in danger of losing our Government of the People and we, all of us, are culpable. We have all thrown matches and spread fuel into this fire. It's time we own up to it.

One thing that I have found to be nearly universal is that we tend to have split-personalities when it comes to our political ideology. It is one thing to go onto a message board, for example, and express an extreme philosophy. It is an entirely different matter for us to then apply those same standards in our own lives. An example could be that I doubt anyone who posts on ATS about how much they despise anyone who receives Government assistance has every disowned their own Grandmother for the fact that she gets Medicare. ”I'm sorry MeeMaw, but you're just a parasite on society and I've lost all respect for you....”. Another example is that I've never met a Liberal who turned down a good job because the parent company happened to be an evil Corporation.

I feel very strongly that if we could apply our real world sensibilities to our publicly stated political views – we would find it much, much easier to own up to the mistakes we have made and to find rational and realistic ways to resolve them. Whenever we, as a People, make our voices heard, in unison, things change. This is still viable. It still works.

It is past time for us to put away our childish things and to begin to accept that our Government is doing only what we allow it to do, want it to do, and accept that it is doing. Exactly that and nothing more. It is time for us all to value our collective national identity as much as we value our own personal identities. The truth is that we broke this ( or allowed it to be broken ) because that breakage served our own selfish needs to one degree or another. The power to fix things resides with each and every one of us. It is our birthright and our mandate.

It is time for us to stop screaming about what is wrong with our country and accept the fact that there is something intrinsically wrong with America... and that we need look no further than the mirror to see that wrong.

Thanks for your time ATS!

Not everyone screams and moans. I don't want anything from the government but basic infrastructure, and other basic needs they would typically provide. I have no problem paying my fair share of taxes for that service either. I just want to work and provide for my family and have them do better than me.

I don't have any agendas I want to push or protests... I'm not religious, gay, minority, 99%er, .001%er, atheist, uneducated, obese, non-insured, or Government worker.

reply to post by Xtrozero


Obviously that position is one that I think all of us ( or most of us ) can and do respect. We all want those things, especially for our loved ones and our children.

Having said that, I am left wondering why you felt a need to list those categories? People who those labels might apply to would also be part of the tapestry of this great nation as well - just as valid as the rest of us. By dividing with these labels we diminish our voice and our power as a people.

Just food for thought.

I think the problem is we give too much voice to the fringe 10% on both ends of the spectrum.

I would love to see a more moderate government that puts 'doing the right thing' first and politics second.

I consider myself a Libertarian. No wars, small government and let people make their own choices regarding their lives and what they do on their own private property.

A quote I love is: Your freedom ends where mine begins.

The reverse is also true.

reply to post by Metallicus

I think the problem is we give too much voice to the fringe 10% on both ends of the spectrum.

Give voice? Maybe the other 80% just doesn't have the kahonas to speak up. There's no giving voice, but there is taking the opportunity to speak out and make yourself heard. Those 20% you mentioned are doing just that. When will you take your turn?

Looking for some common sense ownership of America's issues Heff?

You'll be hard pressed to find that anywhere but in these sorts of communities.

I hate to link it, but..



This is what's wrong with America. It's not #1 but the elected officials and those in charge actually think it still is.

~Tenth

Great post, and great points were made.

No matter how many things I can point out that are wrong with America, and no matter how pissed off I get at the government, I am a part of it and have to take at least some responsibility for it being the way it is.

I can say that I was duped by the media and by a mediocre indoctrination system called public education, but the bottom line is, once I became and awake and aware, what have I done to walk the walk, instead of just talk the talk?

I think back to an anti-war protest I was involved in back in 2007, in which we were spit at, called dirty hippies (which was kind of stupid, I saw no hippies there, but it was George Bush country), and told to "get a job", or "get the hell out if we didn't like it". I felt marginalized, ostracized, and a little paranoid that there were FBI snoops in the group taking pictures. I decided that America could just fall right there, it was useless and nobody gave a damn anyway.

That was my failure. At a time when I should have pushed back harder, stood my ground, and felt the heat of righteous anger, I folded. I gave up and walked away. How many others are just like me? How many others don't even go as far as protesting even once, thinking that it doesn't matter?

What I feel is intrinsically wrong with America is our softness, our cowardice, and our willingness to take the easy way out and say "screw it", when we should be rising up en masse, as they are doing in Egypt and Brazil. We became soft a long time ago. We'd rather stay inside and watch TV, and tell ourselves that it's not as bad as we imagine it to be, and "somebody else" will fix whatever's wrong.

Only a disaster of epic proportions, or the complete destruction of this nation, will toughen us up again...and by then, this Great Experiment begun so long ago will have proven to be a short-lived failure.

What is intrinsically wrong with America? Look in the mirror and you'll have your answer.

S&F once i finish typing this

you're right on the money.. so is the person who sent you that carlin pic and quote..

these are my "insights" into the situation.. a very LOW-FI upload because i'm tired of having everything i upload taken down within a few days.. (warning: there is some mild language)

SLUMERICAN MADE (note the "flowers of lilith" symbol on the hat) - watch here

(reaching too far?) lilith - archetype mother of all demons; the flowers of lilly

A quote I love is: Your freedom ends where mine begins.

the standard one walks past, is the standard one settles for

I agree that it is time to actually start at least discussing solutions. Many recognize that there are issues, but not so many want to be implicated or burdened with responsibility.

So Heff, what are some realistic and actual steps that we can take to realize our dreams? The "end goal" of essentially "fixing everything" is a ways off, but how do we build the road to get there?

What are some of your ideas?

America is broken. It is not the shining beacon of righteousness and democracy that we tend to insist it is.

And this is one of the reasons America is broken.

We are not nor have ever been meant to be a 'democracy' where 'mob might makes right'.

We the people are a corrupt being, therefore anything we create will be corrupt.

Some ideas are good, others not so much, but here is the thing:

We are a constitutional republic where the minority is protected from government, and the people themselves.

The first road to recovery is recovery of our very souls, and the realization that using force via government proxy does not make things better, but they take the inherent power from the people.

The mob can't make another person accept their ideas, that can only be accomplished of free will.

So yes there is something Intrinsically wrong with America?

Yes US.

Originally posted by Hefficide

Having said that, I am left wondering why you felt a need to list those categories? People who those labels might apply to would also be part of the tapestry of this great nation as well - just as valid as the rest of us. By dividing with these labels we diminish our voice and our power as a people.

Just food for thought.

I listed them because each one has its own unique bitch with what they want, and each one is also selfish in much of what they want to the point they do not care the cost, just that they want it, or at least feel that what they want should be respected by all even though it is their desires and not everyone's else's too.

We are all one in this nation, but not of one desire. Many want Government subsistence, many want their own personal mistakes erased by the Government, many do not believe in responsibility, while many are so ignorant that if they actually had a logical thought they wouldn't even know it. Many are also obsessed with their own small desires that they wish to force those desires on everyone. Many are also so obsessed in a narcissistic way that they would screw over everyone around them for some small desire. Other's demand everything now without lifting a finger to provide any of it. There are a lot of negative desires and wants out there and we are too politically correct to say anything against it all.

I do believe in the validity of all, but that is something that is also earned.

reply to post by Hefficide


There Is Something Intrinsically Wrong With America The World.

I agree with much of what you say but felt the need to upgrade the issues to a worldwide scale. We are all in the same boat.

Lost at sea.

reply to post by Hefficide


I have been on ATS long enough now to see an evolution.

I remember when you were just a member, I was a young member trying to establish myself.

Oh the battles we had!

The evolution I speak of though, comes from our given perspectives on America. I suppose that if you spend enough time looking hard enough at something, you're bound to see it as it exists, not as the ideal that so many think of.

Warts and all become apparent. It's like that special girl that we all knew in school. The one we remember as being beautiful and flawless. Now? She lives in a double-wide, chain smoking, overweight, looking for the next trick to get her through the night.

As with an evolution, however, comes new responsibilities. No longer do we need to beat each other over the head with political rhetoric.

We need to look for solutions. Not bandaids. Not quick fixes. But real, lasting solutions.

the trouble is is that the government is increasing forcing violence upon us.

so you can peacenik all you want. we'll save a farm implement for you when you're ready to join the rest of us.

I have given this much though Heff. Even to the point of a possible solution. Like any solution it has problems. I believe this country's problem is a question of morals.

I stated in another thread that to fix this problem with our politicians we must first quit stealing pens from work. Sounds stupid but in reality it is not. Our children learn from us. If we steal pens they learn it is alright to steal. If we tell little white lies they learn it is ok to tell lies. If we use situational ethics they will believe situational ethics is ok. Our children are the ones who become our politicians.

When I was young my Uncle who was a lawyer and a politician offered to pay my way through college if I became a lawyer and politician. I had been going with him on his golf outings where the deals were really being done. My answer to his generous offer was no thank you. I do not lie and I am not a thief nor do I plan on becoming one. It IS from what I have seen with him and others a requirement for the job. I also remember him and my father telling me if I was to decide to go into politics in Chicago I should first decide on what crime to commit so others could blackmail me. Better to pick a crime you can live with then have others pick one for you I was told. This was in the early 70's so the problem has been around for a long time yet the problem is the same. Morality or ethics.

As I do not see our people doing more then giving lip service to morality or ethics I believe there is little hope for this country. I see this also as the problem that is putting so many of our children in jail or converting them to Islam. As a populace we believe in nothing, not the law, not honesty, not in truth, not in any religion for real. Just lip service. When our children meet up with someone who REALLY believes in something, believes so much in it they are willing to die for that belief, it draws them like a moth to a flame.

I loved the movie Serenity for it shows this concept clearly. As the Shepard says in the movie "Why do you always think that when I am talking about belief that I am talking about God?" Belief in something, anything, and being willing to die for that belief has to be shown to our children by US. It can be belief in God, belief in ethics, belief in law, belief in the Constitution, belief in anything. What is required in your belief is that you will stand by it even if it will cause your death. You do not have that with situational ethics.

Of course we will never agree in our different beliefs but that is not required so long as each of us are willing to die for our beliefs. In a certain sense that is what this country was founded on. To paraphrase. "I disagree totally with what ever you believe but I am willing to die for your right to believe it as you should also be willing to die for my right to believe as well." Sorry. I am not a good writer. It seems it always takes a long time to get my point across. lol

reply to post by ninepointfive


Apologies if I came across on some level as a hippie-ish type. While I have liberal social leanings, I am also a proud supporter of the Second Amendment and have no troubles at all with the idea ( or application ) of protecting myself, my loved ones, my community, and my country.

reply to post by Hefficide


I definitely agree.

We are currently in a sad state. There seems to be no light at the end of the tunnel.

A major problem is that we are not able to act as a collective. WE as a group lack the ability to grow a pair and take back what is ours. While everyone is busy bri tchen and complaining about how bad things are, no one wants to act on the situation.

Over half of the populous is enrolled in some type of entitlement program/s. This tells me that we have already lost half of OUR Group. After all, who wants to bite the hand that feeds them. If you are getting Free Money and benefits then what motivation is there to act against those that are sending out the entitlements.

Now if we could get those people to bite the bullet and make a sacrifice we might have a good start. I can understand to some degree where they are coming from. If there are dependant children involved then they are tied and have few options.

The other half of the populous likes to complain and make themselves heard, but, here again do not want to act as a collective to take action.

The day we can act selflessly and go out of our way for our fellow countrymen will be the day we have made some real progress.

Though I am not holding my breath I will remain confident that at one time in OUR History we were able to come together and maybe we could relive that in OUR lifetimes.

When there is something wrong those who have the ability have the responsibility to act. However unfortunate it may seem those who have the ability are way too busy to take the time of day to do any other than complain.

If you see someone is doing something wrong and you don't do your part to change it, you have just set a new standard.

We live in a time of New Standards.

America, i.e., the America you are reminiscing about, began its death throes in the early 60's. It will never return. America is something else entirely. JFK's death was the beginning. That's not to say that what it has become isn't just as powerful and awesome....just that it isn't the same. Something else has taken over the controls and is steering us.

There are too many outside interests, philosophies, agendas, and behind-the-scenes trickery. There are too many cut-throats, cry babies, teat suckers, and money-grubbers.

Every group is clamoring for a big voice and a big chunk of the pie. If you compromise, you're considered weak so every interest, organization, political party, and activist group make more and more demands.

The problem is that the average Jane and Joe American just want to work, save, raise their families, recreate, and enjoy their life and freedoms. They don't want to BE activists. They don't want to waste their lives pushing some agenda when all they want is to have the American dream that is supposed to be there when it's time to grab it. But, while they are living life, the activist groups are working vociferously to suck the very driving wind out of the American people.

reply to post by Hefficide


That's the awesome thing about George Carlin: he was fully aware of the fact that American society is absolutely disgusting -- not just the country's leaders, but the actual people who infest the population of this country and make up its people; yep, the vast majority of folks, not just some trivial amount of them -- and he could articulate this in a way that people would accept and, amazingly enough, even find humorous. People actually paid money to go and have this man tell them how utterly stupid that they are!

Carlin belonged to a very small group of people who could absolutely tell the truth... and be loved for it.