The 'Sovereign Person' defense.. does it work?

I was recently pulled over while driving for an accusation I know didn't happen. I have very little evidence to prove it but, for the sake of argument, I know I am right. The police in this instance are saying I did something I didn't. And I don't want to pay any fines to support a system I don't believe in.

I have read lengthily into the idea of 'Sovereign' being and how you can use this in court..

www.youtube.com...

and

www.youtube.com...


..among others, I have better bookmarked webpages and research to this but..

I just ask, does this work? Does anyone here have any first-hand success using these 'tactics' of non-consent to a court trial?

if you are referring to something you did while driving then unless you have a really good lawyer you are going to get in trouble for it. You cannot claim the Sovereign person defense in the case of driving on the roads because you are driving on state/gov owned roads in a car that is registered through the gov, using a license that was granted to you with an inherent set of rules you agreed to when you paid your registration and got your license...

How does it feel to be free?

reply to post by andboycott


If you have a birth certificate and have entered into any agreement with the government ie you get a drivers license, then you have consented to matching your certificate of ownership to your identity. You will need a good lawyer to argue that you are sovereign in this case.

Most of the time when you get a drivers license (Privilege not right) You agree to certain things, things like if you get pulled over you submit to a breathalyzer (not saying thats the case).

With out knowing more I can not comment more on the situation.

No, it doesn't work. If our new search engine works, look for some of the threads on sovereign citizens. The courts have heard it all, and have rejected it all, up to the Supreme Court.

What may happen, one time in a thousand, is that a very low level judge will say "Why am I wasting time with this fruitcake. It's not worth my effort," then cut you loose just to get rid of you. But that's a gamble I wouldn't take. You're just as likely to get contempt of court charges.

the most important thing is to know without a doubt that you are a free being and that no one is above you . as stated by another poster , if you have all ready consented to obey their rules then you are subject to their penalties. the only reasonable advice that i would give , is to not consent to any court other than criminal or civil. but chances are that its a little late to easily resolve this issue . pay the fine , and try and be prepared before you have any other issues.

reply to post by defcon5

Dear defcon5,

Thank you very much. I hope everyone listens to you. I've been involved in several threads on this issue, and I always fear for the people who sound like they want to try it.

GUYS!!! LISTEN TO DEFCON5. It's that important. You will get into more trouble than you expected if you try to adopt sovereign citizen as a defense..

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by defcon5

the "as seen on t.v." sovereign citizen movement is a scam , but there is no denying that , if we choose to be ,we are free beings ,and as long as you do not injure another being , or their property , without their consent , you have committed no crime , and are not subject to any penalty. all statues , ordinances , and the like are only given the power of law through the consent of the governed . the whole system operates under the color of law , and only due to the ignorance of the people , due they consent to these artificial laws . you can either choose to be free or consent to slavery , it is that simple . and as far as being on a "list" , who cares . I would dare to venture and say the majority of posters on ats , are all ready on some sort of list.

reply to post by defcon5


I understand and agree that the methods that the "sovereign" movement have taken are not wholly rooted in supposed "Constitutional law" or even Common Law. That said, why should we take your word as authority? Because you invoked that you are connected to a lawyer? Just listen and comply?

That part of the "sovereign" movement I can agree with in part. Sorry Defcon; you are respected and your posts are solid, but just because you say so (or in this case you say your employer says so) I think that is part of the problem.

reply to post by andboycott

You will only be allowed a plea wherein you will claim guilt or innocence upon which a date for trial will be set wherein the officer who wrote the ticket will be asked (after you tell your "side") whether his equipment was working and he indeed did observe the infraction and after he says yes and yes, you will be found guilty anyway and be fined the original amount plus the increased court costs of a hearing and the officers pay for attending.

Of course I don't know the actual circumstances, but it sounds like you were caught doing something, otherwise you could contest it (with a lawyer). Which will cost more.

Otherwise, pay up sucka...

reply to post by IsawWHATtheyDID

Go 120 in a 35 zone, then tell that to the trooper. Send a letter to the IRS telling them that you refuse to pay your taxes anymore. Drive around without license plates. Refuse to leave a public building after closing.

There are many things you can do that don't hurt people or property, that will result in you getting meals courtesy of the State.

reply to post by ownbestenemy

I have a great deal of respect for you, so I will try to answer in a brief and practical manner.

It doesn't work.

There are stacks of case law showing that people who try this defense get fined or jailed. It is a very appealing philosophy, but in this country it does not function well.

Should it? Maybe. But it doesn't.

reply to post by ownbestenemy
Here are some links and variations of the sovereign movement:
Idiot Legal Arguments: A Casebook for Dealing with Extremist Legal Arguments
Sovereign Citizen Movement
Redemption Movement
Check out where most of the ring leaders are...

You sure that you really want to be involved in a group that the FBI lists as terrorists?
FBI: Sovereign Citizens A Growing Domestic Threat to Law Enforcement (By the FBI’s Counterterrorism Analysis Section)




Hope that helps..

reply to post by charles1952


I myself never thought it would work....wrong path in my opinion. There are much more effective ways to accomplish the establishment that you are a free citizen (hell; just run a case up like Bond and use the 9th/10th as your backing and win).

My point was adhering to the poster's appeal to authority because they know someone who is a lawyer. I take exception to that. It is equally as appalling as our representatives who say "trust me, I am a politician.....er representative).

I also thank you for your kind words dear sir/madam.

The One People's Public Trust & Sovereign Citizens Movement Scams Broken Down

Good thread to read, if your interested.

reply to post by sonnny1


Yes...sadly they have hijacked the notion of self-representation and governance. Instead they have subjected themselves outside of the law and then point to that law they deny exists. Like I said....the 9th and 10th Amendment can take you a long way with out joining one of these groups.

Its funny how this always comes up and the naysayers all come out and try to scare you.

First the term "sovernign citizen" is an oxymoron, One is either a soverign or a citizen. Citizenship is something you are given along with civil right, liberties. If you answer yes to "are you a us citizen?" then you are claiming that you are " under the jurisdiction of" the district of columbia rather than a soverign of the united states of America.
It is very hard and expensive to be a "soverign" but can be done.

Its better to use thier own system against them but its not easy.
Imo the best thing to do is try to get them to not show up to court. The "state" needs to prove that the "law" applys to you as an individual.

They will come up with all kinds of "reasons" why it should but can offer no facts that it does.
If they say its cause you have a liscense well then who are you in a contract with?

They can't say the law applys just cause.we say so.

So, before you go to court call the cop and ask him what he intends to use as factual evidence to show that you were subject to the law in question.
This may seem kinda silly but they really can't PROVE any of us are subject to ANYTHING, all they can do is use force against you.

And this folks is how we can beat them. Instead of saying boo hoo it doesn't work, we tried and still had to pay.
Imagine if enmass everyone grew some balls and stood up and said you show me cop,judge,laywer.politician how it is that I am bound to some document I was not a party to yet all your "laws" and "statutes" are based on it.
The government ALWAYS wins through:

F alse
E vidence
A ppearing
R eal

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Hoax

reply to post by andboycott


The cop has to show up at the hearing, or the charges are dismissed.

You could always try making sure he doesn't show up. This takes a lot of prep work and can get you in trouble, but it's all social engineering.

If it's for a minor speeding rap or the like, not worth the trouble. Toss the dice, they don't show up about 30% of the time.