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Originally posted by macman
reply to post by Jepic
It is free will. The Govt has no business being involved in that decision.
I
Originally posted by mrkeen
In Ancient times a soldier with no children in his home country could have them in the country he invaded. But things changed a lot since thenedit on 7-5-2013 by mrkeen because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by macman
reply to post by Jepic
You really have no clue to our freedoms here in the States.
Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy
Are you kidding me? If you have kids, you have absolutely NO RIGHT to join the military. NONE. Do you understand that those children need you? You are going to deprive a child of a father or mother so you can subject yourself to abuse and exploitation by a government who doesn't give a rats ass about you?
It is grossly immoral for a parent to join the armed forces of his own accord, unless he or she is acting in defense of his or her homeland; only then is such a sacrifice justified. Once you have kids, you don't have the right to subject yourself to death.
Originally posted by macman
reply to post by Jepic
Then you know that we are an all volunteer military.
The restricting of someone based on child status won't cut it.
Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy
reply to post by Jepic
Although I agree with you about changing current public view in regard to the military, the honor and respect that comes with serving a just cause is irrelevant; it is highly immoral and selfish to put your life at unnecessary risk when you have dependents.
Hence why I said it's only justified if you are fighting in defense of your homeland.
Let's take the ethical debate a bit further and tackle this dilemma: assume for a minute that we live in Nazi era Germany. You are the gentile head of a household, you have a wife and kids, and you sympathize with the Jewish cause. Is it justified, then, for you to shelter Jewish refugees in your home, thus putting the lives of your kids in danger?
You could argue that hiding the Jews is, on one hand, the moral thing to do, but on the other hand, it is absolutely immoral of you to risk the lives of your children, regardless of who you sympathize with. Which moral polarity wins out, and is it cowardice to choose your own family over the Jews, knowing that they will likely die if you do not help them? Does cowardice, then, hinder or help your survival?
The same logic could be applied to joining the military when you have a family dependent on you, though the consequences are less severe.
Originally posted by Jepic
That's true. Also in my homeland during the times of ancient greece it was seen as the duty of every person to marry have children and raise a family. The importance of that seems to be lost in modern times. It's a pity. Maybe if things in that aspect returned to the way it was in the past there wouldn't be so many people that feel depressed, lonely and lost nowadays.
Originally posted by Jepic
Originally posted by watchitburn
reply to post by Jepic
I never thought about it that way before, it is interesting.
And you're right, if I get smoked, that's it for my family. The buck stops here.
But then what would people like me do outside of the military?
I would most likely be dead or in prison by now, or dead in prison.
I think it should stay as it is. It's an understood voluntary risk, and shouldn't be arbitrarily taken away from us. Whatever will be, will be.
Glad to see that you agree with me if even somewhat.
For stuff that you could do prior to entering the force on your 27th birthday is basically what I said to a previous poster, make a family. Unless you have a type of reproductive impairment then you should be allowed to enter the military as soon as you wish.
Star for you btw. Sometimes I forget...edit on 7/5/13 by Jepic because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy
reply to post by Jepic
Escaping Germany and her occupied lands was no easy task, and I would think that desperate times call for desperate measures; an ostracized and persecuted people will shamelessly act to further their own survival. The Jews cannot be blamed for clinging to life.
Nazi Germany aside, I think that the opposite of what you suggest should be true; if you have children, you should not be allowed to serve in the military voluntarily, at least not until your children are past a certain age in their development that they are able to exert a decent amount of independence without your presence in their lives. I think the age for this in most boys is around 14, I would guess it is the similar with girls.
To paraphrase, if you have kids you have an obligation to be there for those kids, at least until they have somewhat matured and could be less affected developmentally by your death.
Originally posted by 200Plus
reply to post by Jepic
Actually I served 21 years and my thoughts are 180 degrees from yours.
I've seen 19 year old kids join with 2 kids and a wife. They walk in the door making what others earned after 4-6 years (if they are single). Add in the costs of feeding, housing, and general care for dependents and a "family" soldier costs the same as three single soldiers.
Go back to the days when you had to be an NCO to live off base and do not allow people with dependents to join the military. That one idea alone would save the military 1/3 of it's budget (above board at least).
*** Bloodlines are a romanticized notion - but honestly, not everyone needs to be breeding ***
ETA - I do not want to over generalize this, but I saw a lot of soldiers that were squeamish about risks in combat because of their family back home. Not all by any stretch, but enough to piss me off almost daily. Are single soldiers worth less?edit on 7-5-2013 by 200Plus because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by jrod
Originally posted by Jepic
That's true. Also in my homeland during the times of ancient greece it was seen as the duty of every person to marry have children and raise a family. The importance of that seems to be lost in modern times. It's a pity. Maybe if things in that aspect returned to the way it was in the past there wouldn't be so many people that feel depressed, lonely and lost nowadays.
Maybe the population explosion we've had in the past couple of centuries has something to do with that.
Not everyone wants to start a family, and some people should not breed.