Your Opinion on Money, Faith, God, and Mankind's Will to Change

So a guy posted this pic on Facebook:



The conversation between me and a guy I worked with evolved from issues of the world, to money and people's moral values. Have a look.

Mark: They'd quit. And then there'd be no politicians

Mark: And the positions would be taken up by the people used to working min wage now. This would shortly precede oblivion. (Not the Movie)

Me: 'Oblivion' of America that is. The end of one one thing is the start of something new.

Mark: You almost make "something new" sound positive. I think politicians with the skill set commonly found in fast food restaurants running the country is a little bit shy of "positive"

Me: Not everybody is meant to lead, nor does everybody 'want' to lead. No matter who is taking charge nothing will change as long as we continue to place intrinsic value into a fiat currency. It must be a global change in currency. Taking positions of current leaders will only lead to the same problems we have now. Until that happens, then things will stay just as they are. Countries will be built and countries will fall. A change in the currency will be a change in the world.

Mark: Are you suggesting bitcoin?

Me: It doesn't have to be one currency to the next. More like one form of service for another's form of debt.

Mark: Yeah, you've completely changed topics

Me: Not at all. Politicians are chosen to solve problems. The problem is money. That is the root issue of the world.

Me: Thing is they won't ever fix it. That's the untold truth.

Mark: Money is just a word. Whether your currency is paper, mineral, or digital syntax makes no difference. Whether you trade chickens for produce or one good for another is irrelevant. The world's greatest folly is greed. Tell me, how do you fix that?

Me: How right you are man. Sounds like this is where moral values and religious/spiritual beliefs come into play. That itself is determined by how one is raised and the environment they are living in. If we look at many cultures on the East, the Buddhist and Taoist are typically selfless and passive. Why? Simply how they grew up. It's their way of life. Can the whole world become that way? Of course. Here in the west, we've become the opposite, it's only impossible if humans make it.

Jack: @Mark, most of the people in power have no idea what it is like to be poor and struggle from one check to the next putting in back breaking work to service this country, whether it is food service or digging ditches. & @ Michael, PLEASE don't talk about the oblivion of this beautiful project we call america! and I agree that currency is a blinder Mark. Never the less, not everyone has the mental capacity themselves. We require a lot of welfare recipients in a lot of states (which is usually because of the state levels) but we should definitely require A LOT MORE of a politician.. that's the basic meaning of the message in my eyes.

Mark: I agree. Men and Women in office that have seen first hand how life is in a lower class lifestyle would make for a very down to earth and well rounded politician. I don't believe that there is a core concept more unanimously renowned globally or otherwise as: "America, The land of opportunity". And it's true. There are countless rags to riches examples throughout American history. And if all of us have the opportunity to better ourselves exponentially, then there's nothing stopping any of us from doing something about the current political climate.


Me: LMAO


Mark: And Michael. Humans are greedy, selfish, scared, creations. It's just our Nature. There's not an environmental change that can be made to fix that. The only thing that can successfully curve human nature is divine intervention.


Me: Personality and the nature of humans is shaped due to their environment. You are who you are because of where you were raised and the people around you. One human's nature is different from the next. For example everybody does not fear the same things, they aren't greedy over the same things, and there are selfless humans out there. Humans have the ability to change themselves without a divine guided hand. But, if everybody thinks like you, then humanity will have wait for Jesus to come down and snap his fingers.


Mark: Sure we all fear different things. Sure we all have different vices. And yes our environment does influence us. That's all irrelevant. I'm not talking about any single individual's personal nuances. I'm talking about humanity as a whole. There will alw...See More


Me: I'm not attacking you when I say that 'if everybody thinks like you'. Although, logic and faith are like oil and water. The two don't mix. Yes. We are flawed, but not stupid and you can't have a 'whole' without the smaller individuals. How can you say it's in our nature to be this way then say something like faith can change that? Faith is the belief in something or someone without hardcore proof. Is that not something already 'within' us as humans? A 'choice' to believe in something or someone influenced by our surroundings? How is that divine? You're saying that it can't be done, but if we have faith we can get a little better everyday. So it's your 'choice' to fill in those fissures, right? Meaning, we already have all we need 'inside' of us (call it what you want) to change ourselves. It boils down to us as individuals making a choice to change no matter what it may be through, faith, self, love, or even the desire of change itself. It comes from within. It's a choice we must make. You've proved my point indirectly.


Mark: I disagree. I'm a very logic driven individual and it is due to that logic that I have faith. and I never said or implied that we don't have a choice. Of course we do. My point was that regardless of what we chose we can't overcome our nature on our own. Some people never will. Some people never want to. Most people will try and will fail.


Me: My point was that regardless of what choice we make, it 'can' be done. That faith is also within human nature and that one must 'choose' faith making it a conscious humanly decision. As long as the choice is made it can be done. Then decision to change through any means including faith shows belief in the self before anything. When you believe in yourself you can do many things people say can't be done. I have more faith in mankind than what you have. We are not weak. This world can be changed without a divine helping hand, we just can't do it as swiftly. Nonetheless it can be done.

You're right, some don't want to. They exercise their freewill, their individuality and we can only influence them. Those that try and fail just need more faith right? In other words, they need to try harder, believe in themselves more. Nobody said change was easy.

Mark: Your contradicting yourself. If someone has faith in God they won't believe themself self over anything... The choice to have faith is the choice to be open to God's influence so he might incite and guide your actions. Sure mankind can change the world all by themselves. It happens everyday. But an establishment wrought purely by human influence is an establishment doomed to fail. I believe in myself as much as, and maybe more, than most, but that does not mean I believe in myself first. I don't believe humanity as a whole is weak, but any man standing alone is insignificant when juxtaposed with a man fortified with a higher power. Nonetheless, I'm tired of typing blocks of text on Facebook. It's really quite annoying. If you'd like to continue our conversation then call me. You have my number don't you?

Me: I'm not contradicting anything. You are simply missing the point. I'll leave you to think about this, because I've said it more than once. If someone shows faith in a higher power to guide them, then they believe that they can be changed or helped, they believe that with a certain 'edge' they can do whatever, reach their life goals, change themselves, learn something new. In order for one to believe that a higher power can change them, then they must first believe in themselves, they HAVE to believe that it can be done FIRST, even if it's subconsciously. God doesn't have the power to change you, He can only guide you. We are endowed with freewill, remember? Everybody is the ruler of their life. Therefore, change happens within. It's that simple. It's just an illusion that people choose to live in.

Mark: And you have adequately missed my point as well. That's why I suggested you call me. So quandaries can be addressed as they arise. So if you'd like to address the points you've missed as I would like to address those you say I've missed, verbal communication is required.

I called him just not too long ago but he only invited me to drink and play poker with his friends where we can all talk about this in person in a friendly debate so they can jab at me over things they don't understand either.

Thing is, I want to continue this chat here. with a wider range of people who might understand a little better and express their views more potently. So please read and comment your opinion on any points and let the the conversation continue to evolve. I'm sure there are people who agree with Marky Mark here, tell me why.

IMO, Mark is wrong when he says

Humans are greedy, selfish, scared, creations. It's just our Nature.

We may be born with a selfish/greed gene but its the social conditioning that brings this out to the extent we see now.

IMO, There is only absolute order - Meaning people are born righteous, Its their environment that effects this order.

If following a religion makes you aspire to be good, to be righteous in your actions and choices, then so be it. A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything - Ones admiration to aspire to be good defies most of what we have been conditioned to think like, racism, sexism, social class, nationalism, success based on wealth, lusting over women/men - All that crap.

And I wouldn't say we all have the same chance to 'succeed' in life, in fact I'd completely disagree. A person born into wealth gets more opportunities than somebody who is born into poverty. A person born into poverty is in a bad environment, more chances of failing at school, no chance of getting a job - Whereas the person born into wealth could be an ass all their lives, but still walk into high paid work. Success based on wealth and the means to attain wealth is the problem.

reply to post by Mizzijr


"Humans are greedy, selfish, scared, creations. It's just our Nature."

Adults yes.
Children are morally superior to adults. they are taught by adults to be competitive.
Chimps are competitive and aggressive from birth.

I would propose that children should be consulted on moral issues. There would be no war, hunger or poverty or religion.

But But.... You mean I'd have to give up my guns??? Eff that! Moar gunz!

Originally posted by InverseLookingGlass
reply to post by Mizzijr

 

"Humans are greedy, selfish, scared, creations. It's just our Nature."

Adults yes.
Children are morally superior to adults. they are taught by adults to be competitive.
Chimps are competitive and aggressive from birth.

I would propose that children should be consulted on moral issues. There would be no war, hunger or poverty or religion.

But But.... You mean I'd have to give up my guns??? Eff that! Moar gunz!

Nah, not selfish at all; more a pact of self sustainance and survival, what is more important, the idea of food or the killing to actuate animate the action of IT. Children are morally superior to their (assumed) betters because they are not inferiors, are actually (unbeknownist to themselves) sub-dugated innocents and so being hold a higher frequency of knoweledge again THAT OF INNOCENCE. The children of this world hold all of keys, they are not told this: WHY? because frequency rating is the key to understanding the planetary rising you must rise as well even if you are 100 years of age. If you did not hold this vibration within the last 29 years you would not have been born.