I love Jesus.

reply to post by Logman


Very soon you will be able to say that to Jesus from a bended knee . If I am wrong what will I lose . If your wrong what will you lose . Make sure you are right .

reply to post by SimonPeter


So basically.... FEAR FEAR FEAR!!!

Is that about right?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


No actually I prefer to follow Christ because I am sickened by the sleazy drug,tattoo,unGodly ways people are living . I'm sick of the perverted ways that people are seeking to change good to bad an vice versa .
2nd Timothy chapter 3 is a very good explanation of what today " the last days " is like . As well as chapter 4 verse 3 thru 5 . All written 2000 years ago , yet is exactly true today .
FEAR ????? What do you have to fear ? Your the Enlightened One . But somehow are you absolutely sure that what you know is right .

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by Logman

 

Very soon you will be able to say that to Jesus from a bended knee . If I am wrong what will I lose . If your wrong what will you lose . Make sure you are right .

I see this argument all the time, so I'd like to respond to it for once.

If fear of the consequences of not having faith is the only thing that compels me to have it, then would I really be being faithful? Or just hedging my bets for my own self interest? If there is a deity and I am to have faith in it, then I want it to be because said deity is present in my life, merciful, loving, compassionate, interested in our existences and our suffering, forgiving, and understanding of my doubts, fears, and skepticism. After all, it ostensibly created me with the ability to reason, and if reason has led me to have doubts and fears, then it would sure be swell if a deity could empathize with that.

I'm agnostic. I don't know if a deity exists. I am skeptical. That is both my nature and the direct consequence of every experience life has brought before me. If there is a deity, a human being telling me that I have so much to lose if I don't have faith does absolutely nothing to instill me with said faith. Compliance because of a threat is not faith. It's fear, and it's obedience. And that's what you're really talking about whether you realize it or not in my opinion: obedience. Obedience to something I cannot prove the existence of to myself thus far, and which instructs me to do something I cannot simply flip a switch and will myself to do: believe in it.

"Just believe," is not something I can do. And it is neither because I don't want to, or because I haven't earnestly tried (all my life, in fact.) Nor is it because I won't simply accept it because I'm a "doubting Thomas." People act as though people like me can simply make a choice to not require evidence. No. There is no choice. This is simply how my mind works and the criteria that must be fulfilled before I can accept something as real. If I had a choice, I could simply will myself into belief. I've tried. Earnestly. I can't do it. Therefore, there is no choice.

And even Thomas got to actually touch his Lord and speak to him.

I respect - and will defend - everyone's beliefs and their right to them. I am not someone who seeks to disabuse others of their faith or to convince them that they're wrong, irrational, or bad people for having faith. If anything, I support anything that people engage in that makes their lives more meaningful, peaceful, and content (assuming they aren't hurting anyone else.) I like seeing people fulfilled, happy, and at peace. That gives me happiness. And I have my own beliefs. But what I don't have is gnosis, or any experiences which would confirm the validity in the beliefs I do hold. And without that, to me belief is almost tantamount to what children do: pretending.

And holding the threat of the loss of the favor of something I don't know exists over my head can't change that.

Peace.

reply to post by SimonPeter


Your god has been here for over 2,000 years and has gotten more and more popular the whole time. What has he done for us besides getting us in this situation? Isn't he in control of everything? If so, we've gotten to this point because of him.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


If you took time to read the bible you would know that this upcoming conflict between Israel and Iran including Russia is prophesied in Ezekiel 38 . That is what is tracking along in the LATER DAYS . You might also read about what is going to happen to Israel in Zechariah 14 . Also in Ezekiel you will find where fire is sent on those that ( dwells carelessly in the isles ) . That might equate to a nuclear exchange that impacts you . Also in Zechariah 14 verse 12 the A bomb effects are described . Some one said a chemical bomb could vaporise you but you would be blown to pieces . Pictures of Hiroshima show peoples skeletons pretty much intact with no meat on them .. Then there is the Mark of the Beast System coming . When you calculate what it would take to facilitate that prophecy you would need a world wide web system with electronic money ONLY and an authorisation to use the system . That equates to it could only happen in this very time we are in now .
So it is my belief that the bible is completely current .
There are many things that points to the (Later Days ) explained in the bible . But of course you haven't read my other post references and you will not read these because you really don't want to believe . It's not fashionable or sophisticated and cramps the party life style .

reply to post by SimonPeter


So god has had these wars and massacres planned centuries beforehand? What happened to loving your neighbor as yourself? If Israel and Iran start bombing each other, god has gone against his own commandment.

Why would he do that?

reply to post by AceWombat04


If you read the bible and look at the signs of the times you could see that what has been prophesied is coming about now . Not some thing s but everything mentioned as later days . From there you may at least find reason to loose your problem in believing in a deity .

reply to post by SimonPeter


So god tells us not to murder, but wills us to do it anyways? Why would he pre-plan these genocides after telling people not to kill?

Your god is a bag of contradictions.

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by AceWombat04

 

If you read the bible and look at the signs of the times you could see that what has been prophesied is coming about now . Not some thing s but everything mentioned as later days . From there you may at least find reason to loose your problem in believing in a deity .

I was raised reading the bible. I've read it many, many times both as a child and as an adult. Much earlier in my life I was just as convinced as you are - which is your prerogative - that the "end times" were upon us and that everything lined up perfectly with scripture. This was the case not once, but on three different occasions. It wasn't true.

Countless other people have made the claim you're making, and even backed it up with scripture, and they too seemed to be right. But again, it wasn't true.

So while I am open to the possibility, the claim alone, and the interpretive apparent correlation of the religious scriptures in any religious book - bible or otherwise - with geopolitical scenarios alone, are not sufficient to erase my doubt unfortunately. If they were, my doubt would have been erased long ago. Instead it has only been strengthened and deepened.

It is not a simple or light matter or something that I flippantly dismiss. It has been a lifelong struggle to find faith in something, anything. I have sought it earnestly, through deep study and contemplation, prayer, meditation, and other means. I have yet to find it on my journey so far, unfortunately.

If you believe as you say you do, I suppose you should pray for me. But saying, "what will you lose if you're wrong" doesn't instill me with faith.

Peace.

Originally posted by gangstersoflove
reply to post by mideast

 

NO, you don;t love Jesus, you love some concoction you've made up and called Jesus. The real Jesus said He was one with the Father, and that no one comes to the Father except through him. He said he was the only way, of course, disqualifying your Allah and Mohammad. So think twice before you say you love Jesus, because you don't even know him.

Like I said , no one owns him.

And the only people who really follow him and suffer doing what he did , can tell that they have some relationship with Jesus , otherwise they are pretending.

And any one can love him.

And I didn't say he is son of god or not , but I said in the OP

He was not ignorant and he was facing many pains because of ignorant people on one side , cruel and greedy and stubborn Jews on the other side , were making him suffer.

If you are really a Christian , you would understand his pain.

But it is no pain in bigoted hearts , there is only "me" "I am right" "I don't listen to others".

I didn't choose Islam by bigotry and I will never follow and unseen bigot man.

Jesus belongs to those who want to follow what he said and he said the truth.

I love him and respect him for what he did.

At least you could say that.

But bigotry is overflowing from your sentences.

I absolutely hate threads like this one. Let's be purely logical, scientific and realistic; you have never met Jesus, you have never spoken to Jesus, you have never experienced Jesus. Full stop.

If this has already been mentioned then I apologise but I'll admit I haven't had the patience to read every page.

Whatever you think you love is a non-physical, mental construct based upon a religion; if that works for you then great but your love of Jesus isn't any more realistic than my love of my imaginary girlfriend.

reply to post by templar knight

In that simple act if he had instead gave a great speech about the effects of alcohol on the body and that people can still enjoy themselves with water, then how many lives could he saved as Christianity becomes entwined with alcohol?.

I really doubt that they would accept that.

They would say "pictures or it didn't happen".kiiding

In that period of time people were much more ignorant than they are today.

Prophets changed people little by little because many can not bear a complete and comprehensive change.

And I doubt that science existed in that days or it was popular as it is today. There were doctors who were curing the sick. And Jesus cured many sicks to teach people that he is a prophet of god , to gain their trust.

reply to post by Death_Kron

scientific and realistic; you have never met Jesus, you have never spoken to Jesus, you have never experienced Jesus. Full stop.

I have never seen 2*2=4 , but I believe in it. Like many scientists believe in it.

And there are many proofs that 2*2=4 is scientific and scientists use that.

And no scientists can say "I met 2*2=4. They say , we know it is right because it is applicable in reality when we have 4 items. But those items are not 2*2=4 itself. They are examples of it.

And 2*2=4 is an example of how scientists use this unseen facts to do what they want.

If you are really a follower of science , answer an logical answer.

Originally posted by ccseagull
reply to post by MarioOnTheFly

 

When Jesus was on the cross God distanced Himself from Jesus and judged Jesus to see if He was worthy to take on all mankind's sins. That was why Jesus shouted, "Father why have you forsaken me?" It was the first time ever that He didn't feel God's love. He stood in our place.He felt the separation and was truly alone.

I am a Christian and I send you my love OP.

First of all you kinda skip over the alternative "in your hands I place my spirit" tradition (a traditional Jewish evening prayer). How did you decide that "why have you forsaken me?" is authentic and "in your hands I place my spirit" is not?

Second, "It was the first time ..." begs the question of how you read the prayer in the garden Gethsemane.

Third and most importantly you skip entirely that "Father why have you forsaken me?" is the beginning of Psalm 22.
As he dies Jesus is starting to pray this psalm that seems to fit his current situation perfectly (pierced hands & feet, cast the lots over his garments, ..).
Doing so he is again emphasizing that prophecy has been fulfilled, that he is the new David, the Messias, he is again reminding everyone of his teachings of the kingdom of god, of the turn towards the good that can still reasonable be asked/prayed for (remember that one of his central messages is that a turnaround is still possible - in contrast John The Baptist who seems to have believed that judgement was unpreventable at this point and that all that can be done is to prepare for it), he opens the perspective towards Pentecost, ...

Here's the entire psalm for your reading pleasure.

For the director of music. To the tune of “The Doe of the Morning.” A psalm of David.

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you I will fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!

Reading the first line in isolation is emphatically not a good idea.

Originally posted by mideast
Lots of replies but the love for Jesus is still rare

How many years is passed after the last time he was among us ?

And he is still unknown and alone like he was before.

edit on 26-4-2013 by mideast because: (no reason given)

peace and light to you for your message,

love one another as i have loved you,

interesting how there is no exclusion involved, everyone is to be loved.
it takes no proof or trust to know that love is good and feels good,
we feel it in our hearts.

it is easy to love jesus PBUH
but he asked us to do more,
to love your neighbour as your self.

love one another as i have loved you.

in my view of the perfect world all is love.

thank you for starting this thread, and reminding me how simple it really is.

Alpha and Omega

xploder

Originally posted by mideast
reply to post by Death_Kron

 

scientific and realistic; you have never met Jesus, you have never spoken to Jesus, you have never experienced Jesus. Full stop.

I have never seen 2*2=4 , but I believe in it. Like many scientists believe in it.

And there are many proofs that 2*2=4 is scientific and scientists use that.

And no scientists can say "I met 2*2=4. They say , we know it is right because it is applicable in reality when we have 4 items. But those items are not 2*2=4 itself. They are examples of it.

And 2*2=4 is an example of how scientists use this unseen facts to do what they want.

If you are really a follower of science , answer an logical answer.

Weak argument, your attempting to argue two completely separate subjects. 2 * 2 = 4, is a formula, a calculation from a branch of Science we like to call Mathematics. It can be visibly, practically and theoretically proven to be factual.

I can quite easily demonstrate to yourself the application of this concept in numerous forms, can you demonstrate your conversations with Jesus? Or experience with him??

The answer is NO. Because you aren't having any form of physical connection or experience, your just believing in an idea. I'll actually relent and admit that if your that "into" Jesus then possibly you may have some sort of physical reaction but let me ask you a question and I'd like a straight forward answer;

Have you spoken to Jesus?

Not, "yes in my head I've spoken to Jesus" anyone brainwashed enough can pretend to speak to people in their minds.

Have you physically seen Jesus? Have you physically spoken to Jesus? Has Jesus physically held your hand?

The answer is no and I'm afraid all your left with is a belief, not a certainty.....

@OP

As a Christian what is strangest to me about the view of Jesus in Islam is not that you don't hold him to be God but that you deny his death on the cross.

On the one hand I understand that this docetic solution allows him to be taken to God (like Elijah) without having to be resurrected (which would place him above & beyond what is known of even the greatest prophets).

However, on the other hand this view leaves a big question mark over why it was necessary at all to make the Jews/Romans believe they had crucified him? What was the purpose of this (apparent) crucifixion?
Why not just have him delivered into God's hands straight off the cross? Why this ruse and all the misunderstandings (Christianity!) it provoked?

Granted, we cannot hope to truly understand any and all of God's reasons but the apparent death of this great prophet must have been a great symbol with some significance to it that was intended to be understood by men. And I don't see the significance unless the crucifixion was real.

It would help me tremendously to understand the view of Islam if you could shed some light on how this issue is treated/discussed in your religion.

reply to post by Death_Kron

Weak argument, your attempting to argue two completely separate subjects. 2 * 2 = 4, is a formula, a calculation from a branch of Science we like to call Mathematics.

So , you believe that there is 2*2=4 , but it may change in future ?

I wanted to open a door but you just come with names and none related facts.

I can quite easily demonstrate to yourself the application of this concept in numerous forms, can you demonstrate your conversations with Jesus? Or experience with him??

No , but the day you showed me 2*2=4 itself , I will show you the conversation.

Have you physically seen Jesus? Have you physically spoken to Jesus? Has Jesus physically held your hand?

Maybe I have , but there is not fact to prove it to you.

I can doubt that I have even replied to you because it was some moments ago , was that true or fiction ?

illusion has no point of stop as well as doubting has no point of stop.

I can doubt Jesus was real as well as I can doubt one moment ago was real.

I can doubt Jesus was real as well as I can doubt one moment ago was real.

And if you couldn't doubt, then faith would no longer be a free decision of you (to trust God's call and follow it) but a foregone conclusion (and as such utterly meaningless).