Concept of God in Islam

reply to post by logical7

Humans commit crimes more when they are either not concerned or feel safe from its consequences. The people in power who wage wars, commit genocides and manipulate economies to drain off the wealth of the masses and smirk at their genius plans are atheists as they wouldn't do it if they really believed that they will be answerable to any god.

LOL Why are you trying so hard to redirect our subject? Religious people can kill in the name of god, but atheists don't kill in the name of atheism. That's it. That's all there is to it.

The people in power wage wars and commit genocide for freedom, money, land, protection...not for atheism.
People manipulate economies for greed and a lust for power, not for atheism.

Believers in a god kill for their god.

How many ways can this be said?

reply to post by jiggerj

The people in power wage wars and commit genocide for freedom, money, land, protection...not for atheism. People manipulate economies for greed and a lust for power, not for atheism.

Ok, not 'for' atheism but 'because of' atheism. Is that so difficult to understand?

For you god doesn't exist, so are you saying that the world as we see due to greed and lust is acceptable or it will turn good suddenly if all people are atheists?

Wouldn't the world be moving towards better if more people became aware that they will be accountable for every injustice they did? Just assume hypothetically (it doesn't matter if its true or not.)
so Jiggerj what you say?

Interestingly because majority americans have not internalized the belief that 'God is watching' they have to be given material proofs(cctv cameras) to make them know that the government is watching!!

reply to post by logical7

Ok, not 'for' atheism but 'because of' atheism. Is that so difficult to understand?

No, I understand completely what you are saying, and I'm saying that no one has ever used atheism as an excuse to do bad things. People have used the belief in a god as a direct excuse to do bad things.

You want to claim that because some people don't believe in a god, they might say to themselves, "Hey, there's no god, so there's no reason to NOT commit a crime." This just isn't true. I am an atheist. I wholly believe that this life is it. There is NO WAY I want to commit a crime and spend a portion of this life in a prison.

Whether there is a god or not, bad people are going to do bad things. Good people are going to do good things. But, let me ask this of you because I really don't know: The terrorists that believed they would be rewarded in heaven for slamming those planes into the Twin Towers, do you think they would have done something like that if they knew for certain there was no god and no heaven? I'm thinking they wouldn't have, but if they were that evil to begin with, I just don't know.

reply to post by jiggerj

There is NO WAY I want to commit a crime and spend a portion of this life in a prison.

exactly! You are afraid of punishment.
Now what if you were a powerful rich elite and above law for all practical purposes?
Now are not these elite responsible for decision making etc, they believe themselves as god!!

do
you think they would have done
something like that if they knew for
certain there was no god and no
heaven? I'm thinking they wouldn't have, but if they were that evil to begin
with, I just don't know.

i dnt believe the MSM 9/11 story, anyways i think there are people who do that even in name of independence/freedom. I know of rebels who did suicide bombings for their cause, sabotage rail tracks to kill innocents, i know israel threw sulfur bombs in a school with kids studying in it at that time!
Do you condemn state sponsered terrorism? Killing innocents with drones, Dirty bombs etc?
Will you back the ones who fight these injustices to drive these state terrorists away from their lands?

reply to post by logical7

Do you condemn state sponsered terrorism? Killing innocents with drones, Dirty bombs etc? Will you back the ones who fight these injustices to drive these state terrorists away from their lands?

I am of this earth and nowhere else. If there is injustice and tyranny that cannot be fixed with words, what other recourse is there besides killing the offenders? Yes, I condemn indirect terrorism where innocents are killed, but a direct bullet to someone's head (Kim Jung Un, Islamic militants, for example) then I have no problem with that. I don't know about you, but if I were religious I would find no satisfaction in knowing that someone was going to hell for their deeds. I want satisfaction now, while I'm alive and knowing that the world is better place with someone taken out of the picture.

reply to post by jiggerj

I don't know about you, but if I were religious I would find no satisfaction in knowing that someone was going to hell for their deeds. I want satisfaction now, while I'm alive and knowing that the world is better place with someone taken out of the picture.

do you think a bullet in the head is justice enough for a perpetrator of genocides? For someone who causes deaths of millions? Like hitler, bush etc?
Do you agree that there are people who really deserve hell(if there is) for the crimes they did? Like whoever did 9/11, whoever killed hundreds of thousand kids in Iraq, whoever tortured innocent muslims to death/insanity just because they were muslims?
I say anyone who did so extreme crimes doesn't matter what his religion is should be brought to justice here in the world but also be judged and punished by God, because mostly justice here is a joke, the perpetrators of war crimes in Bosnia are still free and on posts of power while cases against them continue in International court! They will mostly die of old age.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by jiggerj

 

I don't know about you, but if I were religious I would find no satisfaction in knowing that someone was going to hell for their deeds. I want satisfaction now, while I'm alive and knowing that the world is better place with someone taken out of the picture.

do you think a bullet in the head is justice enough for a perpetrator of genocides? For someone who causes deaths of millions? Like hitler, bush etc?
Do you agree that there are people who really deserve hell(if there is) for the crimes they did? Like whoever did 9/11, whoever killed hundreds of thousand kids in Iraq, whoever tortured innocent muslims to death/insanity just because they were muslims?
I say anyone who did so extreme crimes doesn't matter what his religion is should be brought to justice here in the world but also be judged and punished by God, because mostly justice here is a joke, the perpetrators of war crimes in Bosnia are still free and on posts of power while cases against them continue in International court! They will mostly die of old age.

You know what, no matter the crime here, no, I don't think anyone deserves eternity in hell. That's too long. If a god existed and was merciful, he'd erase the sinners. Just make them non-existent. Why should I care what happens to anyone after this life? I doubt anyone would make it to paradise with revenge on their mind. Well at least in my fictional story.

reply to post by jiggerj

If a god existed and was merciful, he'd erase the sinners. Just make them non-existent.

oh really? So Hitler kills millions of jews and dies like every human is supposed to die anyway and God just makes him non-existent!! Thats your idea of justice to the victims?
Maybe the killers of Heena will also live a natural life, die and then just get erased. Way to go Jiggerj, Heena will be proud of you!

God in Islam is Merciful for sins committed against Him. For sins against other humans, there would be an accounting on day of Judgement and the currency would be 'good deeds'(positive) and 'sins'(negative) and the total will decide who ends up where.
Sinners 'good deeds' will be transfered to victim/s and when he gets bankrupt n still owes debt, sins from victim/s will be transfered in his account. So there would be absolute justice.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by jiggerj

 

If a god existed and was merciful, he'd erase the sinners. Just make them non-existent.

oh really? So Hitler kills millions of jews and dies like every human is supposed to die anyway and God just makes him non-existent!! Thats your idea of justice to the victims?
Maybe the killers of Heena will also live a natural life, die and then just get erased. Way to go Jiggerj, Heena will be proud of you!

God in Islam is Merciful for sins committed against Him. For sins against other humans, there would be an accounting on day of Judgement and the currency would be 'good deeds'(positive) and 'sins'(negative) and the total will decide who ends up where.
Sinners 'good deeds' will be transfered to victim/s and when he gets bankrupt n still owes debt, sins from victim/s will be transfered in his account. So there would be absolute justice.

You assign the human desire for revenge to a god. It appears that your creator is the Mike Tyson of the afterworld. Absolute Justice is a childish daydream. If your god would sentence someone to an eternity of pain for the crimes committed in this short life, then that is one evil god.

I have no idea how you came up with sinners good deeds being transferred and all that crap. Did god tell you this?

reply to post by jiggerj

You assign the human desire for revenge to a god.

not revenge, just Justice.

It appears that your creator is the Mike Tyson of the afterworld. Absolute Justice is a childish daydream.

its very possible for God.

If your god would sentence someone to an eternity of pain for the crimes committed in this short life, then that is one evil god.

i don't think there is 'TIME' in afterlife.
And an evil end for evil people, they always had a choice. Right?
If a criminal does a crime, knowing what the punishment is then he is choosing it. No?
If you say you'l take hell as punishment but not believe in God then you'l be a witness against yourself that you chose it!!

"Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses — We will
drive them into a fire. Every time
their skins are roasted through We
will replace them with other skins
so they may taste the punishment.
Indeed, Allaah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise." [Quran 4: 56]

pain receptors are in skin and God our Creator obviously knows it!

"Indeed, the criminals will be in the punishment of Hell,
abiding eternally. It will not be
allowed to subside for them, and
they, therein, are in despair. And
We did not wrong them, but it was
they who were the wrongdoers. And they will call, 'O Maalik let your
Lord put an end to us!” He will say,
“Indeed, you will remain.'" [Quran 43: 74-77]
Maalik is an angel incharge of hell and thats your answer about just erasing criminals

I have no idea how you came up with sinners good deeds being transferred and all that crap. Did god tell you this?

yes its in Qur'an.

69:25. But as for him who will be given his Record in his left hand, will say: "I
wish that I had not been given my
Record! 26. "And that I had never known, how my Account is? 27. "I wish, would that it had been my end (death)! 28. "My wealth has not availed me, 29. "My power and arguments (to defend myself) have gone from me!" 30. (It will be said): "Seize him and fetter him, 31. Then throw him in the blazing Fire. 32. "Then fasten him with a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits!" 33. Verily, He used not to believe in Allah, the Most Great, 34. And urged not on the feeding of Al-Miskin (the poor), 35. So no friend has he here this Day, 36. Nor any food except filth from the washing of wounds, 37. None will eat except the Khati'un (sinners, disbelievers, polytheists, etc.). 38. So I swear by whatsoever you see, 39. And by whatsoever you see not, 40. That this is verily the word of an honoured Messenger [i.e. Jibrael (Gabriel) or Muhammad which he has brought from Allah]. 41. It is not the word of a poet, little is that you believe! 42. Nor is it the word of a soothsayer (or a foreteller), little is that you
remember! 43. This is the Revelation sent down from the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind,
jinns and all that exists). 44. And if he (Muhammad ) had forged a false saying concerning Us
(Allah), 45. We surely should have seized him by his right hand (or with power and
might), 46. And then certainly should have cut off his life artery (Aorta), 47. And none of you could withhold Us from (punishing) him. 48. And verily, this Qur'an is a Reminder for the Muttaqun (pious). 49. And verily, We know that there are some among you that belie (this
Qur'an). 50. And indeed it (this Qur'an) will be an anguish for the disbelievers (on the
Day of Resurrection). 51. And Verily, it (this Qur'an) is an absolute truth with certainty . 52. So glorify the Name of your Lord, the Most Great.

56:41. And those on the Left Hand Who will be those on the Left
Hand? 42. In fierce hot wind and boiling water, 43. And shadow of black smoke, 44. (That shadow) neither cool, nor (even) good, 45. Verily, before that, they indulged in luxury, 46. And were persisting in great sin (joining partners in worship
along with Allah, committing
murders and other crimes, etc.) 47. And they used to say: "When we die and become dust and
bones, shall we then indeed be
resurrected? 48. "And also our forefathers?" 49. Say (O Muhammad ): "(Yes) verily, those of old, and
those of later times. 50. "All will surely be gathered together for appointed Meeting
of a known Day. 51. "Then moreover, verily, you the erring-ones, the deniers (of
Resurrection)! 52. "You verily will eat of the trees of Zaqqum. 53. "Then you will fill your bellies therewith, 54. "And drink boiling water on top of it, 55. "So you will drink (that) like thirsty camels!" 56. That will be their entertainment on the Day of
Recompense! 57. We created you, then why do you believe not? 58. Then tell Me (about) the human semen that you emit. 59. Is it you who create it (i.e. make this semen into a perfect
human being), or are We the
Creator? 60. We have decreed death to you all, and We are not unable, 61. To transfigure you and create you in (forms) that you
know not. 62. And indeed, you have already known the first form of
creation (i.e. the creation of
Adam), why then do you not
remember or take heed? 63. Tell Me! The seed that you sow in the ground. 64. Is it you that make it grow, or are We the Grower? 65. Were it Our Will, We could crumble it to dry pieces, and you
would be regretful (or left in
wonderment). 66. (Saying): "We are indeed Mughramun (i.e. ruined or lost
the money without any profit, or
punished by the loss of all that
we spend for cultivation, etc.)! 67. "Nay, but we are deprived!" 68. Tell Me! The water that you drink. 69. Is it you who cause it from the rainclouds to come down, or
are We the Causer of it to come
down? 70. If We willed, We verily could make it salt (and undrinkable),
why then do you not give
thanks (to Allah)? 71. Tell Me! The fire which you kindle, 72. Is it you who made the tree thereof to grow, or are We the
Grower? 73. We have made it a Reminder (for the Hell-fire, in the
Hereafter); and an article of use
for the travellers (and all the
others, in this world). 74. Then glorify with praises the Name of your Lord, the Most
Great.

reply to post by logical7

It doesn't matter, muslims know better, they don't imagine an anthropomorphic God.

They don't? Then why do they give attributes to God that are particular to PEOPLE? Like judging, revenge, punishment, destruction, or forgiveness, mercy, justice?

Those are things that PEOPLE do.
And I'll repeat that I absolutely can not agree with your premise that God/Allah "created people for one reason - to worship him." If that's not anthropomorphic, I don't know what is.

IF there is a "creator" at all - and that's something we probably won't ever know until we die, individually -
why is there ANY REASON to assume the Creator ("God") is paying attention to every little movement of everyone everywhere, all the time??

Yours is not a merciful God; it is a punitive God, a harsh and dangerous, frightening God. I want no part of it.

I do NOT believe that only God-people do the right thing, NOR do I believe that we need a God to tell us how to behave. When you become a parent, you will understand better - you cannot in any way truly understand the pure love and unconditional acceptance a parent has for their child until you LIVE IT.

If anything, the "revealed" God is a cruel, authoritarian, hostile 'father-figure.'

And I actually DON'T see any reason for a "revealed" God or scripture. It's all man-made. All of it. Someone's imagination, nothing more.

reply to post by wildtimes

They don't? Then why do they give attributes to God that are particular to PEOPLE? Like judging, revenge, punishment, destruction, or forgiveness, mercy, justice?
Those are things that PEOPLE do.

People have those attributes because God made us that way.
Next time you act being loving or forgiving or just to your fellow human, remember your Maker.

And I'll repeat that I absolutely can not agree with your premise that God/Allah "created people for one reason - to worship him." If that's not anthropomorphic, I don't know what is.

Would you produce a child and be okay with him telling you to your face that you did not give birth to him?
A man who acknowledges his parents would proudly express it with his last or middle name.
A man who acknowledges the One who made his soul... would express it through his worship.

why is there ANY REASON to assume the Creator ("God") is paying attention to every little movement of everyone everywhere, all the time??

How do you define "little movements" ?

Yours is not a merciful God; it is a punitive God, a harsh and dangerous, frightening God. I want no part of it.

his God is your God as well.

God has the power to silence you instantly... but He is patient. He has given us an entire lifetime to repent and turn towards Him.

The only thing harsh and dangerous and frightening is this world and the things in it.... and yet people desire those things.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Would you produce a child and be okay with him telling you to your face that you did not give birth to him?
A man who acknowledges his parents would proudly express it with his last or middle name.
A man who acknowledges the One who made his soul... would express it through his worship.

Skorpion,
have you "produced a child" yet?

My children know that I gave birth to them - how could they tell me to my face that I did not? There is rampant evidence that I did, and sorry, but that's a very strange analogy to make.
There is NO PROOF or EVIDENCE whatsoever that whatever created my soul is an overseeing, punitive, judgmental jerk - who would throw me in hell for not "worshipping" it.

I don't expect my children to "worship" me - I am glad that they love me, and trust me to love them NO MATTER WHAT.

Honestly, I can't understand how you think YOU can tell me where my soul came from. I know I have it, I know that I am a loving, kind person who stands up against violence, intolerance, cruelty, slavery, and unjust punishment done by PEOPLE to OTHER PEOPLE who then project those qualities onto some invisible 'father-figure'.

I know what my heart tells me is right, no "book" is needed. My children don't need me to "inspire" other humans to write a book of rules to know that I love them and that they must worship me.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

How do you define "little movements" ?

That, again, is a strange question. I'm referring to the idea that this anthropomorphized "God" who is ever-present, knows everything that everyone is thinking at all times, and is keeping score, holding grudges, and perfectly fine with letting people burn in "hell."

I don't believe in "hell", but I do believe, for now, that there is an afterlife of some kind. And probably a before-life, and between-lives, with continuity of our non-physical selves.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

his God is your God as well.

IF THERE IS A CREATOR GOD, then yes, that is true. But his IDEA of what that God is is just that - An Idea and it is not My Idea.

The understanding we each have of what "God" might be is SUBJECTIVE, it cannot be proven OBJECTIVELY.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

People have those attributes because God made us that way.

I believe you have that backwards. People made "God" that way because PEOPLE have those attributes.

Next time you act being loving or forgiving or just to your fellow human, remember your Maker.

I act loving, forgiving and just because it is WHO I AM. I didn't need an ancient book or anyone else's "revealed" god to make me behave that way.

reply to post by wildtimes

My children know that I gave birth to them - how could they tell me to my face that I did not?

Yeah, but what IF they denied you as their mother.
Its normal for a human to acknowledge their mothers.... and its normal for humans, at least the religious ones... to acknowledge their Maker.

My children don't need me to "inspire" other humans to write a book of rules to know that I love them and that they must worship me.

No one is saying your children need to worship you.
Humans acknowledge their biological parents .... and honor them.
Some humans go one step further and acknowledge their Maker... the One who they will finally return to.

I'm referring to the idea that this anthropomorphized "God" who is ever-present, knows everything that everyone is thinking at all times, and is keeping score, holding grudges, and perfectly fine with letting people burn in "hell."

God is not anthromorphic.
But of course God keeps an eye on all humans.

Everything is on record,
Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it! And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it.
-Koran 99:7-8

Or did you expect God to let good people go unrewarded ... or evil people to go unpunished?

reply to post by wildtimes

I believe you have that backwards. People made "God" that way because PEOPLE have those attributes.

God is also described as being omnipotent and omniscient.

Was it also because people had those attributes???

Your logic that people made God that way because people had those attributes doesn't really work.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Everything is on record,
Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it! And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it.
-Koran 99:7

Or did you expect God to let good people go unrewarded ... or evil people to go unpunished?

Mohammed knew what "atoms" are?

God DOES let good people go unrewarded as far as I can tell - and evil people to go unpunished. Every day, all the time. Believing "they will get what they deserve" is a way for us to tolerate what we see actually happening. There is NO EVIDENCE that proves it is so. I believe in karma, and in reincarnation, but that is because I want that to be true. I'm aware that it is wishful thinking, and is derived from a feeling of "powerlessness" to stop the evil and pain that I see in the world.

But that doesn't MAKE it SO. It makes it ME HOPING that it's so.

I don't "expect" 'God' to do anything, really.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Hi, log7. Sorry it took me awhile to get here.

Good that you joined

I can't believe for one moment that
our only "simple purpose [is] to
worship him". That is slavery,
subjugation, and tyranny.

While I respect that you are willing to hear other points of view, and are actively seeking more information, I can't in any way see this quote above as 'truth'. And if it is, I want nothing to do with it.

The problem is difference of understanding the word 'worship'

here's my reply to Jiggerj about the same.

if you think worship means
singing his praises all day or just
praying 5 times a day then its a very
shallow idea of worship.
The idea of Worship in Islam is being
the best possible person. Realising our potentials and working to make them
real. Being a good son/daughter, a
good sibling, a good spouse, a good
father/mother and expecting the
reward for it from Allah not from the
people we interacted. They may or may not acknowledge our goodness
or show gratitude but it does not
matter as it was done as a worship to
Allah.

Also, Maung put it nicely,

I think the translate into english from
ibadati to worship that make the
meaning become more shallow.
Worship can sounds like a fans
idolized their idol. Ibadat in wide
range mean do as we should or in easy way like work as it should.
Is it like when you make a printer, and
what you want is the printer to print.
To print for a printer is a worship to
you as its creator.

Ibadat/Ibadah is every good action. If i keep a bowl of water for birds, its Ibadah(worship). If i smile to my wife making her smile back or ignore a mistake by her, its ibadah.

God gave us all the ability to THINK
and ACT. The world is going downhill
fast. God has done nothing tangible to
step in and correct it. It seems to me
irresponsible to say that 'worshipping
God' is our only simple purpose, when so many are dying of starvation,
illness, oppression, and neglect.

we discussed about humans being 'stewards' and that does not limit to taking care of environment and animals. If God has made humans as representatives(for a specific term) to maintain/restore a proper order and humans are failing, its not God's fault.
Taking action to eradicate hunger/malnutrition, to resist/fight and overthrow oppression is worship/Ibadah in Islam.
(Every muslim that is fighting may not necessarily be a terrorist, he maybe presented as one by the oppressors to their own people and the gullible majority just believes it.)