U.S. Senate Approves the Keystone Pipeline: Final Vote 62 to 37 !

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

 

Keep living in that delusion, and go ahead and turn a blind eye when it starts to happen. I suppose it will all be propaganda when we start hearing about people who refuse to sell their land, being forced off. Agenda 21 may not be the answer to anything, but neither is sticking your head in the sand and pretending science is wrong. Get off it already.

As far as individual rights, yes, a good point is that people may be forced off their land to build the pipeline. Any other time Progressives have no problem forcing people to give up their land for conservation easements because of some spotted owl or pelican or whatever endangered animal or plant. Suddenly you care why?

What specifically about the keystone pipeline are you suggesting erodes our sovereignty? Please, I'd like to hear.

Agenda 21 implements UN policies on the local level, in our cities, so what part of going around Congress and State legislatures is losing sovereignty don't you get?

As far as sticking my hand in the sand, you view things differently. I don't happen to sign on to the Global Warming scam, but I do understand that Progressives do, so they feel that people should be forced off their land to save the owls but not to make sure we have enough oil to heat our homes....oh wait we all should be using solar panels right? Or have a mini windmill in our back yard??

There is no real science behind the AGW theory. It is bogus and people refuse to recognize the role the sun has in actual planetary temperatures and climate.
Even those in Agenda 21 know it's a scam, Maurice Strong, and Al Gore know, because they think that lying to the public or blowing things out of proportion will get the ball rolling on what they want.


Forcing people out of cars and onto bikes is part of the Agenda 21 plan, and that takes away our choices. So again don't lecture me about individual rights. Agenda 21 runs all over our rights forcing their Utopian idea of everyone riding on bike paths and restricting our diets removing meat because cow farts produce methane. That is the stupidest reason to stop eating beef. This agenda asserts that only the evil wealthy western countries like the USA can afford beef at all. We must all eat rice and soybeans to satisfy the Progressives.

A clue for you, I may "get off it" if you will get off pushing leftist radical ideas that don't work, like taxing everyone's 401k accounts as a way to get money for the govt to pay for all the unfunded liabilities.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by Kali74

 

people celebrating in this thread don't actually give a crap about individual rights or sovereignty, p

Really? It is the Capitalists here and those who don't buy into the Climate Change scam who believe in individual rights. The Climate Change scam is part of Agenda 21 so don't lecture us about individual rights and national sovereignty, which Agenda 21 destroys.

edit on 24-3-2013 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

You're not a capitalist. You're a consumer. The only ones who are the real capitalists are the ones who own and provide capital. Those would be the banks. The ones who bank rolled Communism, the UN, Agenda 21 and this pipeline. If you think they care about your sovereignty you're sadly mistaken. You're simply tearing us apart by playing into the Capitalist/Communist paradigm.

We're all humans trying to get by down here. Try to dig a little deeper into this Pipeline's real impacts and where the money goes, and you'll see that none of it will make it down to us, it will go to the Capitalists at Citigroup and Goldman Sachs as per usual.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

As far as individual rights, yes, a good point is that people may be forced off their land to build the pipeline. Any other time Progressives have no problem forcing people to give up their land for conservation easements because of some spotted owl or pelican or whatever endangered animal or plant. Suddenly you care why?

That's ridiculous, cite such happening. Conservation Easement is legal agreement between land owner and government (land trusts) wherein the landowner agrees to government terms of Conservation in return for tax deductions of all kinds, it's voluntary... not forced.

Also, stop calling me a progressive, I'm not. Furthermore stop trying to box me into some whacko preconceived checklist you got goin on.

A clue for you, I may "get off it" if you will get off pushing leftist radical ideas that don't work, like taxing everyone's 401k accounts as a way to get money for the govt to pay for all the unfunded liabilities.

And stop putting words in my mouth, you know full well where that post was coming from and you're twisting it to fit your agenda, back off.

This is first nations land?
Lol!
Bring the pipeline. Wish it had of gone through BC though.

As a Canadian, I support the construction of this pipeline for the following reasons.

1. I own stock in a couple of Canadian oil companies. (This is probably the primary reason)
2. The oil is being produced regardless of wether the pipeline exists. Currently the oil is being shipped via rail and trucks, which is much worse for the environment than a pipeline would be.
3. Construction will create many jobs for Canadians as well as Americans.

The people who protest against the pipeline are protesting over the wrong thing. If they want to protest something it should be the consumption of petroleum. As long as there is a demand for petroleum, it does not make any sense to hamper the supply. This cognitive dissonance (protesting something while simultaneously supporting it through our actions) will only lead to economic and socio-political strife.

I am actually quite happy with this, because I am from Canada. I live in the prairies, and have worked in the oilfield industry. It is a very lucrative profession, and generates a #-ton of money from top down. Frankly I know environmentalists will cry bloody murder, but personally I am happy for America. Seeing the state of the economy right now these job's could save lives, and keep children fed. This pipeline was going to China, or whoever else gave the highest bid in any case. So anyone with skills even loosely related to the oil-trade [and that is a # of a lot] has a lot of opportunity for employment now. Heck even the basic laborers make a ton of money in comparison to a lot of other jobs, and even some professions salaries!

I always saw people on youtube complaining about jobs, and mexicans [which IMO is VILE]. My advice was always the same : move to Canada and join the oilfield. I wish everyone on here who has any related experience, and is in need of a job take a chance to apply @ the presently operating sites through Cenovus, MegEnergy, Fort Mcmurry, and so on. Heck even cooks who may or may not be out of work make a killing, as well as people with foodsafe , and prep cook statuses.

The enthusiasm of anyone for this pipeline simply shows the rampant ignorance abounding in this country and regurgitated by low information observers.

Oil is a world market, not a national one. The largest importer of oil to the U.S. is Canada, not the Middle East. The U.S. exports more oil than we import from the Middle East. As others have already pointed out, the price is set by market speculation and has absolutely NOTHING to do with supply.

The big 3 oil companies have made the largest profits of any company in the history of civilization over the past 10 years. As the U.S. economy struggled, the oil barons reaped a massive surplus of dollars from the average consumer and continue to do so today and in the foreseeable future. This pipeline has nothing...NOTHING...to do with that.

We can hem and haw about the environment and eminent domain but even that misses the point. We are providing land for a corporation to make more profits off of the average American citizen addicted to oil. It is a temporary victory for those needing a job, they will make some money then it will return to "same as it ever was."

Congress votes based on who pays to keep them there. Newsflash: that isn't us it is their corporate donors like oil companies. Because corporations are people too, my friend. Just ask the Supreme Court.

Originally posted by evictiongnostic

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by Kali74

 

people celebrating in this thread don't actually give a crap about individual rights or sovereignty, p

Really? It is the Capitalists here and those who don't buy into the Climate Change scam who believe in individual rights. The Climate Change scam is part of Agenda 21 so don't lecture us about individual rights and national sovereignty, which Agenda 21 destroys.

edit on 24-3-2013 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

You're not a capitalist. You're a consumer. The only ones who are the real capitalists are the ones who own and provide capital. Those would be the banks. The ones who bank rolled Communism, the UN, Agenda 21 and this pipeline. If you think they care about your sovereignty you're sadly mistaken. You're simply tearing us apart by playing into the Capitalist/Communist paradigm.

We're all humans trying to get by down here. Try to dig a little deeper into this Pipeline's real impacts and where the money goes, and you'll see that none of it will make it down to us, it will go to the Capitalists at Citigroup and Goldman Sachs as per usual.

First of all, I believe in Free Enterprise, not monopoly Capitalism. But Capitalism is mostly better than Communism or Socialism. I am well aware of the abuses against free enterprise by monopolists and oligopolists. If you were familiar at all with my posting history and style you would know that I stand for free market Capitalism and individual rights and liberties, as opposed to Communism and Statism of any kind. But this does not mean I do not believe in some govt and some rules. I believe in limited Govt, not Statist govt and not anarchism. This is why I always talk about our Founding Fathers.
My posting history will also show that I have many times made statements based on the books and writings of the late Antony Sutton, who wrote extensively about the Order of Skull and Bones, as well as how wealthy industrialists and bankers financed the Bolshevik Revolution and the Nazis. I have also posted on Hegelian Dialectic. I have posted lectures by G Edward Griffin on the Federal Reserve. But you see the Free Market economy does not depend on the intrusion and mafia-like activities of the Federal Reserve and their collusion with a Statist Federal Govt. Just because wealthy industrialists financed the Communists and the Fascists does not make Capitalism evil in itself. Classically, Communists hated Capitalism because they viewed it as owning and controlling the majority of workers. However, people advocating for Communism seem to feel that the Collective is more valuable than individual rights. Communism sacrifices individual rights and liberties for the Collective. It is just the way it is, and in every instance in the last 100 plus years where it has been implemented, it is been done very violently and with a Police State mentality, with force, and against the will of the people and the churches. Communism erodes the spiritual nature as well, it erodes the desire of the soul to achieve excellence and creates depression. I have heard that the old Soviet Union had a kind of grayness and pall. This is what Communism does.
Socialism is very similar except that it leaves certain Capitalistic modes in place because Communism and Socialism eats the seed corn and thus it will always run out of other people's money. It cannot function without the wealth of the people it envies or the Capital it hates so much.
If you want Collectivism over individual rights, that is fine for you, there is always Cuba, Venezuela, N Korea, and China.

Originally posted by Beaux
The enthusiasm of anyone for this pipeline simply shows the rampant ignorance abounding in this country and regurgitated by low information observers.

Oil is a world market, not a national one. The largest importer of oil to the U.S. is Canada, not the Middle East. The U.S. exports more oil than we import from the Middle East. As others have already pointed out, the price is set by market speculation and has absolutely NOTHING to do with supply.

The big 3 oil companies have made the largest profits of any company in the history of civilization over the past 10 years. As the U.S. economy struggled, the oil barons reaped a massive surplus of dollars from the average consumer and continue to do so today and in the foreseeable future. This pipeline has nothing...NOTHING...to do with that.

We can hem and haw about the environment and eminent domain but even that misses the point. We are providing land for a corporation to make more profits off of the average American citizen addicted to oil. It is a temporary victory for those needing a job, they will make some money then it will return to "same as it ever was."

Congress votes based on who pays to keep them there. Newsflash: that isn't us it is their corporate donors like oil companies. Because corporations are people too, my friend. Just ask the Supreme Court.

What you mean is, you think all of society can survive off the land in caves like our ancestors, or use solar panels and windmills and ride bikes, and what stupid people think they need a car or heating oil for their homes, or energy to manufacture that laptop you just barked off this insulting message to us. Thanks for the applause for Agenda 21 and the desire of the New World Order to control every aspect of our lives and depopulate as many as they can so all the resources go to them exclusively.
Good going man, you solved the problem.

reply to post by Kali74


Aside from the fact that some landowners may agree to the easement agreement, these agreements specify that the land can NEVER NEVER NEVER be used for anything other than open space and habitat for wildlife. In other words, you cannot reverse it and decide to build a new home or parcel it out to others if you change your mind sometime in the future.

Then there is eminent domain

Eminent domain is another tool used by government to bring their communities into compliance with the sustainable communities vision. With increasing frequency, governments have used this technique to take land, not for "public use," as required by the U.S. Constitution, but for whatever the government deems to be a "public benefit." (22) Governments may condemn and seize the private property of an individual, and then give, or sell it, to another private owner who promises to use the property in a way that satisfies the government's vision. Plans adopted at the local level can have extremely detailed requirements. It is not unusual for these plans to specify the types of vegetation that must be used for landscaping, the color of paint to be used - inside and outside the structure, and even the types of appliances and fixtures that must be used. Businesses can be required to use signs that conform in size and color to all the other signs in the neighborhood. There is virtually no limit to the restrictions that these plans may impose.

These quasi-government agencies are most often created by ordinance, and populated with political appointees. They are frequently given unwarranted authority to dictate the use of private property within their jurisdiction. Individuals caught up in conflict with these agencies are often frustrated by the indifference of elected officials, and financially drained by the legal costs required to resist their dictates. In one form or another, sustainable development has reached every corner of the United States. It has impacted millions of Americans, most of whom have no idea that their particular problem is related to a global initiative launched more than 15 years ago, by the United Nations.

www.democratsagainstunagenda21.com...

Let us not forget that Rosa Koire is an experienced real estate agent and has dealt with specific cases related to this. She is also a liberal Democrat, so even partisanship does not enter here.

Let's talk about what the conservation easements are for.

WASHINGTON (AP) — To save the imperiled spotted owl, the Obama administration is moving forward with a controversial plan to shoot barred owls, a rival bird that has shoved its smaller cousin aside.
The plan is the latest federal attempt to protect the northern spotted owl, the passive, one-pound bird that sparked an epic battle over logging in the Pacific Northwest two decades ago.

The government set aside millions of acres of forest to protect the owl, but the bird's population continues to decline — a 40 percent slide in 25 years.

www.stopagenda21inms.com.../Private-Property-Abuses/obamas-new-plan-for-the-spotted-owl-doubles-habitat-area.html

Yes, just like I said, the plan is to seize as much land as possible so that the spotted owl is happy. This is more Agenda 21 bs which assumes that mankind is a parasite and that the spotted owl is more valuable to the earth. This is the mindset of rabid, radical environmentalists and the people who want to kill off all humans to the acceptable level of 500 million, because spotted owls are more important.

www.didyouknowonline.com...

reply to post by Kali74


Well, I did once say that you were left of Progressive. Would you really argue that with me? Other than that, yes Progressives are left leaning. Rosa Koire is a liberal Democrat by her own definition but says she is not Progressive. In other words, she is more classically liberal in that she doesn't buy into Big Govt intrusion into our personal lives. Progressives, on the other hand, want the govt to run every aspect of our lives. You say you are more on the anarchist side. Most anarchists I've seen on this site tend to be for very Progressive type agenda though, always leftist. I have yet to see one self-professed anarchist here who wasn't advocating for communism or socialism in one way or another. Apparently some people think they can have govt take care of them without paying the price of losing liberties. It just ain't gonna happen that way.

I have yet to see you in particular advocate for anything that wasn't Progressive in nature, whether it is environmentalism, big taxes, invasive taxes which punish wealthy people, that is you engage in class warfare against wealthy capitalists. And what people rail against Capitalists but Progressive Communists and Socialists?

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by Kali74

 

Well, I did once say that you were left of Progressive. Would you really argue that with me? Other than that, yes Progressives are left leaning. Rosa Koire is a liberal Democrat by her own definition but says she is not Progressive. In other words, she is more classically liberal in that she doesn't buy into Big Govt intrusion into our personal lives. Progressives, on the other hand, want the govt to run every aspect of our lives. You say you are more on the anarchist side. Most anarchists I've seen on this site tend to be for very Progressive type agenda though, always leftist. I have yet to see one self-professed anarchist here who wasn't advocating for communism or socialism in one way or another. Apparently some people think they can have govt take care of them without paying the price of losing liberties. It just ain't gonna happen that way.

I have yet to see you in particular advocate for anything that wasn't Progressive in nature, whether it is environmentalism, big taxes, invasive taxes which punish wealthy people, that is you engage in class warfare against wealthy capitalists. And what people rail against Capitalists but Progressive Communists and Socialists?

edit on 25-3-2013 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

The old class warfare whine? The wealthy have been waging war on the middle class and poor for decades where have you been?

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

these agreements specify that the land can NEVER NEVER NEVER be used for anything other than open space and habitat for wildlife. In other words, you cannot reverse it and decide to build a new home or parcel it out to others if you change your mind sometime in the future.

And a person enters into that agreement with eyes wide open!

Then there is eminent domain

Your source can claim all it wants and you can believe any lie you like, that eminent domain has ANYTHING to do with sustainability, it doesn't alter reality. Privately owned land cannot ever be seized through eminent domain for the purpose of conservation.

Conservation doesn't fall within the realm of 'public interest' which is the only way eminent domain can be enforced. Eminent Domain has to do with mineral rights and infrastructure development.

Your citing of the battle over logging vs the spotted owl has absolutely nothing to do with eminent domain or conservation easement. The battle centered around 4.2 million acres of FEDERAL forest that had never been privately owned.

I challenge you to cite one single case where private land has been seized through Eminent Domain by the government in the name of sustainability or conservation. While you're at it why not learn about how UN Treaties work in actuality vs delusion and propaganda.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

Well, I did once say that you were left of Progressive. Would you really argue that with me?

Yes, I am Left of Progressive.

Other than that, yes Progressives are left leaning.

Slightly so.

Progressives, on the other hand, want the govt to run every aspect of our lives.

They are more authoritarian yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean wanting government to control every aspect of our lives and certainly not anymore so than the GOP and much of the Right with the exception of Right Wing Libertarians.

You say you are more on the anarchist side. Most anarchists I've seen on this site tend to be for very Progressive type agenda though, always leftist.

You are seeing what you want to see or what you are brainwashed into believing. There may be areas our ideologies cross paths but anarchists are for very small or no government (I'm for small). Personally I've seen how corrupt the EPA the FDA... most regulatory bodies have become, a lot of Progressives don't see it. As an anarchist I believe in simplifying Law down to prohibiting exploitation which I won't define here.

I have yet to see one self-professed anarchist here who wasn't advocating for communism or socialism in one way or another.

It's not our fault you refuse to comprehend what we mean by those terms.

I have yet to see you in particular advocate for anything that wasn't Progressive in nature, whether it is environmentalism

Again if you actually read my words and leave your preconceptions behind, you would see that I am coming from a place of defying exploitation. The environment is being exploited to such a degree, that by the time I am a grandmother and my grandchild is grown, will be vastly different. I'd like to conserve it for the future, that doesn't mean government control in my eyes, it means disallowing the exploitation.

big taxes, invasive taxes which punish wealthy people, that is you engage in class warfare against wealthy capitalists.

The elite and the wealthy waged class warfare long before any of us came along and I think you missed the part in my other thread where I said abolish all other taxes.

And what people rail against Capitalists but Progressive Communists and Socialists?

Plenty of Capitalists do all the time, how do you think laws get so convoluted in the first place?

Originally posted by avatar01
As a Canadian, I support the construction of this pipeline for the following reasons.

1. I own stock in a couple of Canadian oil companies. (This is probably the primary reason)
2. The oil is being produced regardless of wether the pipeline exists. Currently the oil is being shipped via rail and trucks, which is much worse for the environment than a pipeline would be.
3. Construction will create many jobs for Canadians as well as Americans.

The people who protest against the pipeline are protesting over the wrong thing. If they want to protest something it should be the consumption of petroleum. As long as there is a demand for petroleum, it does not make any sense to hamper the supply. This cognitive dissonance (protesting something while simultaneously supporting it through our actions) will only lead to economic and socio-political strife.

I am sorry we took so long to approve it.

It looks like the U.S. Senators wanted to wait until after the November election.

I guess now would be a good time to buy stock in TransCanada.

How can anyone celebrate this as a victory (other than Big Oil)?

Oil is a commodity that can be sold in other places for much more than in the United States. Unless the US Gov requires oil companies to sell a portion of this oil in the United States at a certain rate, this pipeline will only have a lasting benefit for people affiliated with those oil companies.

The State Department released a report that explicitly states that the jobs created will be almost entirely temporary:

...Including direct, indirect, and induced effects, the proposed Project would potentially support approximately 42,100 average annual jobs across the United States over a 1-to 2year construction period...

...Operation of the proposed Project would generate 35 permanent and 15 temporary jobs, primarily for routine inspections, maintenance, and repairs...

Two years of construction then back to unemployment. Maybe those jobs will pay enough in two years to let workers just retire...

Conservatives criticize liberal "socialism" for making people dependent on government, and those same people are on this thread celebrating this potential project. When corporations own the government, how is this any better? Uncle Sam is still creating dependents; they just suck from the left breast instead of the right.

Same candy, different wrapper.

reply to post by TauCetixeta


Excellent! Now it will he easier to get that oil to the refineries on the Gulf Coast, so that we csn export more gas while those of us in the Chicago area, already saddled with the tax burden for our entire state, continue to pay among the highest gas prices in the nation. Build some more freaking refineries already! we in the US are on the brink of a 50+ year oil boom the likes of which the world has never seen - yet gasoline prices will remain higher than they should - remaining at triple what they were before W.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by Beaux
The enthusiasm of anyone for this pipeline simply shows the rampant ignorance abounding in this country and regurgitated by low information observers.

Oil is a world market, not a national one. The largest importer of oil to the U.S. is Canada, not the Middle East. The U.S. exports more oil than we import from the Middle East. As others have already pointed out, the price is set by market speculation and has absolutely NOTHING to do with supply.

The big 3 oil companies have made the largest profits of any company in the history of civilization over the past 10 years. As the U.S. economy struggled, the oil barons reaped a massive surplus of dollars from the average consumer and continue to do so today and in the foreseeable future. This pipeline has nothing...NOTHING...to do with that.

We can hem and haw about the environment and eminent domain but even that misses the point. We are providing land for a corporation to make more profits off of the average American citizen addicted to oil. It is a temporary victory for those needing a job, they will make some money then it will return to "same as it ever was."

Congress votes based on who pays to keep them there. Newsflash: that isn't us it is their corporate donors like oil companies. Because corporations are people too, my friend. Just ask the Supreme Court.

What you mean is, you think all of society can survive off the land in caves like our ancestors, or use solar panels and windmills and ride bikes, and what stupid people think they need a car or heating oil for their homes, or energy to manufacture that laptop you just barked off this insulting message to us. Thanks for the applause for Agenda 21 and the desire of the New World Order to control every aspect of our lives and depopulate as many as they can so all the resources go to them exclusively.
Good going man, you solved the problem.

Wow, thank you for telling me what I mean. You must be a blast at parties. At least the party in your head with all the echo chambers.

I suggest re-reading what I said which, in the context of this thread, had to do with whether this pipeline meant energy freedom for the U.S. I said nothing about caves, alternate energy, cars, heating or anything else you pulled from your empty spaces. Simply put, oil belongs to the world, not the U.S., no matter where it comes from. And it goes to those with the deepest pocketbooks. In this case, Canadian oil being pumped through the U.S. to the Gulf where it is refined and sent to China.

"Drill baby drill" is the mantra of oil companies, this pipeline is a boon to them at a time when they need it least and the American consumer gets NOTHING out of it in the way of oil. Nothing. A bit like what your threads have lent to this discussion.

Originally posted by dogstar23
reply to post by TauCetixeta

 

Excellent! Now it will he easier to get that oil to the refineries on the Gulf Coast, so that we csn export more gas while those of us in the Chicago area, already saddled with the tax burden for our entire state, continue to pay among the highest gas prices in the nation. Build some more freaking refineries already! we in the US are on the brink of a 50+ year oil boom the likes of which the world has never seen - yet gasoline prices will remain higher than they should - remaining at triple what they were before W.

More refineries are on the way.

BTW, if you want lower gas prices then move to a state not controlled by the progressives.

They love State Gas Taxes.